Democracy declared fallen in Turkey

[Jaskalas]

Yes it is bad, what do you propose to help us after all these betrayals

I don't know if we can help. Ultimately the future of Turkey is in the hands of the Turkish people.

Right now there is a lot of violence, and your leadership has decided the best way to deal with it is an iron first. Through escalation. To put down (subdue) an entire ethnic population.

First question... is that violence the way forward, or do we want to work against such action? If we are against it then what we want is a ceasefire. Ultimately a ceasefire demands concessions. I don't think Ankara is willing to sit down at a table and recognize Kurds. If it is illegal to work towards peace from within Turkey, then outside pressure must be made.

Is it our place to tell them to do this?

 

[bshole]

Comparison doesn't enter into it; your claim was that they aren't powerful, and that Islam would prevent this anyway.

Both statements are completely FALSE. They are still false when you try to backpeddle and rephrase the belief as if it were a comment of comparison.

There's plenty of info out there on Turkey's military, and if you'd look into it I think you'll notice they square up rather commendably given the area. No idea where you got the "islam" prevents their military from getting powerful. It's like you somehow didn't notice over past 30-odd years that Islam has little to no disdain for the application of war. That's alarming, given the forum you are choosing to post in.

I think of powerful as "military threat to the West". That is the ONLY context in which military power means anything to me.

 

[Triloby]

And now things have slightly gotten out of hand. This just happened right now....

"Istanbul shopping area hit by suicide bomber"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europ...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

It's bad enough that the Kurds had to suffer genocide under Saddam when he was ruling Iraq. I just hope things don't get any worse for them under Erdogan in Turkey.

 

[kage69]

I think of powerful as "military threat to the West". That is the ONLY context in which military power means anything to me.

You do realize that's an entirely subjective/personal take on it, and that anyone who cares about objective facts would probably see it as foolish? They've got a bigger military than Germany, Poland, or Israel. Sounds like you are proud that you view regional politics through a lens of western military strength. Weird.

So no comment on helping us understand what you were on about regarding islam and their military?

 

[KMFJD]

What does this do to their UN status?

In the UN? They would probably be in some human rights council along with the Saudi's

 

[Oric]

First question... is that violence the way forward, or do we want to work against such action? If we are against it then what we want is a ceasefire. Ultimately a ceasefire demands concessions. I don't think Ankara is willing to sit down at a table and recognize Kurds. If it is illegal to work towards peace from within Turkey, then outside pressure must be made.

First the bombs come from two different terorist groups PKK / ISIS

Today's bomb was from ISIS ...

Kurdish problem. Kurds in Turkey are equal citizens, they have their party in the parliment (HDP) but Erdogan and PKK don't like having peaceful Kurds in the political arena so they are feeding on terror to finish HDP. PKK are not the representatives of Kurds, they are terrorists. If there will be an outside pressure to calm things down, they should be directed at Erdogan and PKK simultaneously.

On the ISIS issue, Erdogan should know that he may face criminal charges at Hague with all the evidence that he has supported the radical Islamists in Syria, why has the west kept silent about it ? Does he know that US will not dare because he got the orders/strategy from you and acted as your proxy ? Well make the move so we will all know the truth.

 

[Blanky]

Wow. History in the making. Sucks for the turks. I guess they tried (and succeeded for many years) but Islam just isn't compatible with western ideas - eventually, fundamentalism rises to the surface and wins.

Many of us figured this out a very long time ago.

Suicide bombings will now be a regular thing in Turkey. If they go full retard like so many other countries in the region, they'll have to be kicked out of NATO before dragging us into something stupid.

 

[Perknose]

If people see that they are being treated unfairly they go and vote for polticians who promise them a better alternative (like Erdogan) and keeps the national pride high. You have not learned a bit how Hitler and Mussolini rise to power in the 30'ies and now keeping a closed eye on what is happening here as if we were stupid enough to rise Erdogan to presidency.

Bullshit. It's simply not true that the EU holding out until Turkey raised itself to the human rights standards and other rules of law of Europe before granting them EU membership caused the rise of Erdogan.

The Western leaning minority in Turkey opposed Erdogan then and oppose Erdogan and his party now. It was the great masses of Islamists who voted Erdogan into power, and they never did so because Turkey wasn't admitted into the EU.

I feel your pain, but don't blame the West for Erdogan. Blame, collectively, your countrymen.

 

[Turkish]

Phew... so much ignorance in a single thread.

I don't agree with Oric's point of view that the EU or the West in general is the reason for Turkey falling into this rabbit hole. On the other hand, EU should have never bothered with accession talks because there really was no more than 0.1% chance of Turkey becoming an EU member due to European public's perception of Islam in general (which I can truly understand as an atheist). There's no single place on earth where Islam co-exists with other religions in a peaceful manner. I am not a Kurd but I voted for the party representing Kurds in the last election, for what? Erdogan is clearly trying to shut it down. This country is a mess, just hoping I'll get a chance to run away before a huge civil war starts.

 

[kage69]

Phew... so much ignorance in a single thread.

There's no single place on earth where Islam co-exists with other religions in a peaceful manner.

Oh sweet, sweet irony...

 

[Turkish]

Oh sweet, sweet irony...

Well, one is an observation and the other a fact.

Give me an example and I am ready to eat my words.

 

[kage69]

Well, one is an observation and the other a fact.

Give me an example and I am ready to eat my words.

Indonesia.

Jordan.

Qatar.

Australia.

The UK.

The Philippines.

If peace and islam are anathema to each other, how come no one told the muslims in Egypt who were physically protecting their christian neighbors while at service?

It sounds to me like you are very proud of the Turkish security apparatus and police forces, as you should be. They are considered to be highly trained and very professional, I know I felt safe when I was in Istanbul. It was nice not having to worry about pickpockets, can't say that about a lot of places in Europe.

 

[michal1980]

Indonesia.

Jordan.

Qatar.

Australia.

The UK.

The Philippines.

If peace and islam are anathema to each other, how come no one told the muslims in Egypt who were physically protecting their christian neighbors while at service?

It sounds to me like you are very proud of the Turkish security apparatus and police forces, as you should be. They are considered to be highly trained and very professional, I know I felt safe when I was in Istanbul. It was nice not having to worry about pickpockets, can't say that about a lot of places in Europe.

Ahh your picture is perfect propaganda. The rest of the story behind this handful of Muslims defending this one church? Many other Muslims attacking many other Christian church's.

 

[MajinCry]

If peace and islam are anathema to each other, how come no one told the muslims in Egypt who were physically protecting their christian neighbors while at service?

Well, if we're gonna be like that:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/1...ll-be-raped-sexual-assaults-daniel-greenfield

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-German-women-told-cover-mood-s-changing.html

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany

http://www.iris.org.il/blog/index.p...ab-Muslim-Gang-Rape-Epidemic.html&serendipity

http://pamelageller.com/2015/11/ger...ang-rape-victim-in-magdeburg-this-month.html/

http://eaglerising.com/25469/chaos-...churches-and-schools-rape-women-and-children/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-ordered-mother-seen-unclean-sex-assault.html

https://cavatus.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/sweden-a-raped-country/

https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...en-av-flyktingbarn-i-flera-timmar&prev=search

http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...tion-board-tried-to-conceal-the-incident.html

https://translate.google.com/transl...ill-sverige-och-valdtog-pa-nattag/&edit-text=

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6550/sweden-islam-multiculturalism

http://www.nyatider.nu/disclosure-the-four-swedes-in-custody-for-gang-rape-are-somali-citizens/

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.co...e-hide-identity-of-four-migrant-gang-rapists/

http://www.europeanguardian.com/81-...g-who-raped-woman-in-sweden-are-being-charged

http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...en-at-different-locations-within-an-hour.html

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.co...-daylight-in-front-of-eye-witnesses-in-malmo/

 

[Turkish]

Indonesia.

Jordan.

Qatar.

Australia.

The UK.

The Philippines.

If peace and islam are anathema to each other, how come no one told the muslims in Egypt who were physically protecting their christian neighbors while at service?

It sounds to me like you are very proud of the Turkish security apparatus and police forces, as you should be. They are considered to be highly trained and very professional, I know I felt safe when I was in Istanbul. It was nice not having to worry about pickpockets, can't say that about a lot of places in Europe.

If you truly think any one of those countries is an example of Islam co-existing peacefully with another religion, you are truly mistaken. They are either countries with predominantly Muslim or Christian (in the case of the Philippines, Catholics) populations where the predominant one doesn't bother with the others because it constitutes such a small minority, they don't think it's worth the trouble. Show me a country where Islam is the predominant religion and any other religion is practiced by at least 10% of the population and the country is in a stable state. There's none.

And that photo you have posted doesn't prove anything. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. We had a few similar scenes in Turkey during the Gezi Protests of 2013 while nutjob Islamic fundamentalists were burning Christian bookstores, attacking synagogues, knocking down doors of atheists' homes.

By the way, I am no fan of any political ideology and not proud of anything the security apparatus has done or is doing.

 

[kage69]

Well, if we're gonna be like that:snipped

Be like what? Specifically answer the challenge put to me?

Don't make the mistake of thinking my delivering some requested data means I think there's no such thing as violence from fundamentalist assholes. Turkey has something most other muslim countries haven't attained until recently - a large, modern, very well organized and equipped internal police force. I remember hearing awhile back that Turkey had the best anti-riot personnel, although I can't for the life of me remember the source. Not sure if they're still doing it, but Turkish police were brought over to Germany to help with the Turkish communities. I'm sure need played a role there, but it also says a lot about their competence as a force if a host country is willing to allow something like that.


Anyway, I disagreed with exactly what I quoted. No more, no less.

 

[realibrad]

Indonesia.

Jordan.

Qatar.

Australia.

The UK.

The Philippines.

If peace and islam are anathema to each other, how come no one told the muslims in Egypt who were physically protecting their christian neighbors while at service?

It sounds to me like you are very proud of the Turkish security apparatus and police forces, as you should be. They are considered to be highly trained and very professional, I know I felt safe when I was in Istanbul. It was nice not having to worry about pickpockets, can't say that about a lot of places in Europe.

Global Terrorism Index

The Philippines. 7.27

You realize that the Philippines has one of the higest GTI out there right?

Try this neat trick. Look at the countries with a Muslim population of 90%+ where we have terrorism data. Then, tell me where those countries rank in terms of terrorism. Racist data!

 

[MajinCry]

Be like what? Specifically answer the challenge put to me?


Anyway, I disagreed with exactly what I quoted. No more, no less.

Nice dance moves ya got there.

If peace and islam are anathema to each other, how come no one told the muslims in Egypt who were physically protecting their christian neighbors while at service?

So I quoted a bunch of articles concerning the Muslim migrants coming to Europe, proceeding to rape with impunity; Sweden's rape rate has skyrocketed to 1 in 4 women being, or will be, subject to rape at least once in their lifetime. And the sharp rise, being due to the Muslim population.

Tit fer tat, y'see.

 

[kage69]

If you truly think any one of those countries is an example of Islam co-existing peacefully with another religion, you are truly mistaken. They are either countries with predominantly Muslim or Christian (in the case of the Philippines, Catholics) populations where the predominant one doesn't bother with the others because it constitutes such a small minority, they don't think it's worth the trouble. Show me a country where Islam is the predominant religion and any other religion is practiced by at least 10% of the population and the country is in a stable state. There's none.

We call this 'moving goalposts' over here. Please see above if you are under the impression I feel jihadi aren't a problem.

And that photo you have posted doesn't prove anything. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. We had a few similar scenes in Turkey during the Gezi Protests of 2013 while nutjob Islamic fundamentalists were burning Christian bookstores, attacking synagogues, knocking down doors of atheists' homes.

I brought it up planning to use it along with what you just mentioned there to illustrate that we will be able to find the nutjobs being nutjobs pretty much anywhere, even in Turkey as you just helped me prove (thx!)

By the way, I am no fan of any political ideology and not proud of anything the security apparatus has done or is doing.

Ok maybe I should have phrased that better, I was only referring to it in the context of security (we were talking peace after all), not I repeat NOT regarding things like Gezi, twitter or Zaman.

 

[kage69]

Ugh you guys...

 

[Turkish]

Be like what? Specifically answer the challenge put to me?

Don't make the mistake of thinking my delivering some requested data means I think there's no such thing as violence from fundamentalist assholes. Turkey has something most other muslim countries haven't attained until recently - a large, modern, very well organized and equipped internal police force. I remember hearing awhile back that Turkey had the best anti-riot personnel, although I can't for the life of me remember the source. Not sure if they're still doing it, but Turkish police were brought over to Germany to help with the Turkish communities. I'm sure need played a role there, but it also says a lot about their competence as a force if a host country is willing to allow something like that.


Anyway, I disagreed with exactly what I quoted. No more, no less.

Kage69,

Are you kidding or what? Of course they are going to be extremely effective when they show zero respect for international human rights treaties, which Turkey is a signatory of. They were shooting tear gas canisters and plastic bullets at people's face. At least 15 people died.

- A total of 14 people as of 14 September, lost an eye due to by tear gas canisters and rubber bullets.
- About 200 people received head and brain traumas caused mostly by teargas canisters and baton blows.
- According to the Turkish Medical Association, 1 person lost his/her spleen, caused by extreme police violence.
- A lorry driver named Hakan Yaman who was not related to the protests that time was beaten and thrown into a fire near the area by the riot police leading him to wound brutally and lose his one eye and most of his skin to burn. His family appointed to the court for torture and unlawful police action with video evidence.
- A 31-year-old female named Eylem K., who attended the night's protests in Ankara, was taken into custody by riot police with 10 other people, including a boy under 18. On 28 June, in front of the Ankara Courthouse, she reported that she was subject to violence, sexual harassment and torture in the police car where she was detained. She also stated that she was threatened with rape and torture continued for almost 2 hours in 2 different cars.
...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YUZSHB-BQU

I am not going to waste time here listing thousands of police brutality cases. If you want to read up on it, be my guest: https://www.amnesty.nl/nieuwsportaa...human-rights-violations-in-gezi-park-protests

 

[Turkish]

We call this 'moving goalposts' over here. Please see above if you are under the impression I feel jihadi aren't a problem.

We call this 'dancing with your tail swinging' over here

I brought it up planning to use it along with what you just mentioned there to illustrate that we will be able to find the nutjobs being nutjobs pretty much anywhere, even in Turkey as you just helped me prove (thx!)

Well, if no minority group in Turkey can feel the safety and security you seem to see for them from afar, good for you. Too bad we are the ones who face that reality daily.

 

[kage69]

We call this 'dancing with your tail swinging' over here

I'm guessing there's something lost in translation, but nevermind. As a HUGE fan of Turkish dogs, I'm ok with it. Love me some kangals!

Well, if no minority group in Turkey can feel the safety and security you seem to see for them from afar, good for you. Too bad we are the ones who face that reality daily.

I don't think I deserve that. Just because I'm familiar with some of your infrastructure and history doesn't mean I'm an Erdogan fan. Far from it, if you've read any of my posts on the guy. I hope he's thrown from office asap. The putting words in my mouth just won't stop now huh, now I'm some kind of denier that the powers that be are dirty motherfuckers? I clarify in hopes of maintaining context and not giving you the wrong impression, and your way of acknowledging it is to be a sanctimonious ass. Nice.

Think I'll just let you guys chase these windmills on your own now.

Back to, you know, denying terrorism and hating on Turkish minorities n stuff.

 

[rudder]

Kick them out of NATO post haste. Other NATO members are obligated to defend Turkey... I would especially hate to see U.S. troops be sent to Turkey's aid with this government in place.

 

[bshole]

Phew... so much ignorance in a single thread.

I don't agree with Oric's point of view that the EU or the West in general is the reason for Turkey falling into this rabbit hole. On the other hand, EU should have never bothered with accession talks because there really was no more than 0.1% chance of Turkey becoming an EU member due to European public's perception of Islam in general (which I can truly understand as an atheist). There's no single place on earth where Islam co-exists with other religions in a peaceful manner. I am not a Kurd but I voted for the party representing Kurds in the last election, for what? Erdogan is clearly trying to shut it down. This country is a mess, just hoping I'll get a chance to run away before a huge civil war starts.

Wherever Islamism takes over it takes really dumb actions which will prevent the country it rose up in from competing with Western nations. In Turkey for example:

My cousin has been a physics teacher for twenty years. During the last five years she was made to hand over her physics classes to a member of an Islamic tariqat [order]. She was told to remain at the teacher’s common room during her class periods, so that it looked as if physics was being taught at that hour as stated in the curriculum. For five years those pupils learned nothing about physics - and all about jihad. She felt incapable of changing the situation and therefore she resigned.

Unfortunately this hidden policy has been implemented surreptitiously and frequently over the past ten years, and is now being implemented openly. Boys are pushed to attend boarding schools, and thus kept away from their families, and girls are being encouraged to marry young and become housewives.

Given the undeniable power that science and technology give to a country, it makes utterly no sense that Islamists would attempt to shut them down. It prevents them from projecting any real power. How can they not see this. Do they ever wonder why every single technological advance in the last century (from jets to missiles to the internet to computers to integrated circuits to gene splicing, etc) came completely outside of the Muslim world?

https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/...litical-islam-in-turkey-how-west-got-it-wrong