Democratic National Convention thread

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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
You've been a very angry person around here lately and it's actually kind of unnerving for those of us who remember you definitely being excitable but hardly sounding deranged. I'm as atheist as they come but I do believe in putting out positive energy into the world - or at least declining to put out negativity - and I'd be genuinely concerned about my mental state if I was writing as angrily as you seem to be. Seriously, think about taking a break. Plenty of time to come back and post before the actual election.

Slightly more on topic, I welcome some references to your numbers - that appear 3x - 4x higher than what I've seen in multiple places. But try not to be such an asshole about it.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g19/current/

This puts it at about $90bn/yr, but I believe that is understated for several reasons.

1. Doesn't include other debt (credit cards among them)
2. Doesn't capture increases from late fees, unsubsidized, forbearance/deferment
3. AFAIK it doesn't include charged off debt
4. I believe it understates private loan balances, including non-student loan debt taken out to finance college, which does happen

https://www.federalreserve.gov/econ...-much-student-debt-is-out-there-20150807.html

The numbers can also disagree a bit based upon this.

At a max of $7,500 for student loans/yr. Not much compared to the total costs.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g19/current/

This puts it at about $90bn/yr, but I believe that is understated for several reasons.

1. Doesn't include other debt (credit cards among them)
2. Doesn't capture increases from late fees, unsubsidized, forbearance/deferment
3. AFAIK it doesn't include charged off debt
4. I believe it understates private loan balances, including non-student loan debt taken out to finance college, which does happen

https://www.federalreserve.gov/econ...-much-student-debt-is-out-there-20150807.html

The numbers can also disagree a bit based upon this.

At a max of $7,500 for student loans/yr. Not much compared to the total costs.

You're not thinking about this college thing properly. We've subsidized k-12 for quite a while, and the increasing requirements to hold down better jobs means the high end of that range is correspondingly increasing. This is simply reality of the matter as civilization moves forward.

Just like K-12, at the end of the day someone is paying for it. Requiring students just results in economic stratification, which is why the state pays for K-12 in the first place.

Also, removing barriers for people who to learn seems the right thing to do in any case, though I can see how some interests are opposed to that.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Whoa! We've reached common ground. I agree, to an extent. We still need majors in many of the libarts areas; but perhaps there could be some sort of quota system whereby we don't wind up with everyone going for the easiest major, since it's free. That is, "sorry, we've used up our psychology degree grants. We've got a few grants left for electrical engineers, and your high school grades qualify you..." And, set realistic numbers - I.e., take into account that some of the students will fail out, etc.

When education is provided for free it has the additional benefit that the provider can set some guidelines for what it entails, presumably including subjects of greater commercial interest. It's harder to tell someone to study something else if they (or their parents) are paying for it themselves.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,271
9,352
146
When education is provided for free it has the additional benefit that the provider can set some guidelines for what it entails, presumably including subjects of greater commercial interest. It's harder to tell someone to study something else if they (or their parents) are paying for it themselves.

Make them take and pass reading comprehension and written proficiency classes in year one. Provide all the tutoring and support they need to do so, available after class at their option. Don't let them move on until they've demonstrated they can read (and understand what they read) and write. Even give them a second go 'round for free. After that, they had to PAY and then take and pass these tests.

Provide an alternate education stream for those who can't pass these proficiency tests that plays to and uses what strengths they may have.

We could do all this if we, as a society, realized it was in our own best self-interest to do so.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,577
4,659
136
Look at the pictures of the audience for the RNC. Now look at the pictures of tonight's DNC. At the RNC you saw people over forty, that did not need to be bused in, they were educated, had raised families, had jobs, were veterans from WWII, to now, were well dressed, and came with their own patriotic regalia, many were retired, they did not, inside, or outside incite violence, and no one was looking for a hand out. Those were the people that built, supported, and fought for America.
Look at the crowd tonight, see the difference?

Hooray for whitey!
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Make them take and pass reading comprehension and written proficiency classes in year one. Provide all the tutoring and support they need to do so, available after class at their option. Don't let them move on until they've demonstrated they can read (and understand what they read) and write. Even give them a second go 'round for free. After that, they had to PAY and then take and pass these tests.

Provide an alternate education stream for those who can't pass these proficiency tests that plays to and uses what strengths they may have.

We could do all this if we, as a society, realized it was in our own best self-interest to do so.

Excellent post and ideas :thumbsup:
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,271
9,352
146
Excellent post and ideas :thumbsup:

Thanks. High School is a legal obligation, higher education is a choice, so a higher percentage of those making this choice will be motivated to succeed, free the slackers and class disrupters that populate the most dysfunctional of high schools.

I am under no illusion that many folks of color don't suffer immensely from the underfunded by low tax base, utter crap high schools located in war zones they have had little other alternative but to attend.

But those who make the choice to better themselves in college should be given every possible remedial assistance we can provide. It could be a legitimate way up and out for them, but only for those willing to put in the work.

Kids can do a ton of maturing in the years right after HS, as they face the hard economic realities of life on their own.

That greatest generation? They can home from WWII older, wiser and motivated. The GI Bill led to the explosion of the great American middle class, which was our fundamental strength as a nation.

We owe every appropriately motivated young kid the best chance we can give them, no matter how far behind the eight ball they are starting from.

Sure, it should start much earlier in the local schools, but that seems to be something of a lost cause for now, for an entire constellation of social and economic and political reasons, undergirded by the brutal property tax base disparities between rich and poor neighborhoods.

To paraphrase JKF, we can choose to do this, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.
 

Z15CAM

Platinum Member
Nov 20, 2010
2,184
64
91
www.flickr.com
Never start a sentence with "But" let alone a paragraph. For us outside of the USA - Who gives a damn; other then, your Presidential Candidates SUCK Money big time and don't have a clue how the average person lives.
 
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flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
and don't have a clue how the average person lives.

This is of course entirely correct.

The irony is that (most of) the problems of America today are affecting exactly those average persons. But they are not represented.

The 1% don't need to worry. They don't need to worry about health insurance, the cost of education, medicine, minimum wages, social issues in general.

Sanders is/was indeed the only person actually addressing WHAT the problems in America are.

The rest (Trump of course), but also in parts HRC, will just *exacerbate* the problems under false pretenses...just picking ONE example, with the middle-class and poor struggling...we DO NOT NEED tax breaks for the rich...or cuts of healthcare/education....but this is exactly what we'd be getting with Trump, it's literally trying to douse a fire with gasoline and 100% the opposite what this nation actually needs. It will be a total catastrophe.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,578
1,741
126
Most Americans don't know how to make money. Period. I'm included in this.

It always amazes me that many native born Americans bitch that they can't find work or they don't make enough, yet when I talk to immigrants they're working 12-16 hour days. Why is this? Maybe it's because many Americans have just gotten lazy. And why not.

Live at home till your 30.
Can only work 40 hours a week.
Gotta have life/work balance
I want things for free.
Let's hate on the rich.
And on and on....

There were 500k millionaires made last year in America.

The way we think about money is broken. How many people here have had talks with their parents about money? About getting rich. So rich that you'll never EVER have to worry about money again.

Look at the middle class in 1974 and today:

Middle Class- 1974:

Education
Buy a Home
Retirement Account
Life Insurance
Good Paying Job
2 Weeks Off

Middle Class- Today:

Education
Buy a Home
Retirement Account
Life Insurance
Good Paying Job
2 Weeks Off

It's the same damn thing. Nothing has changed. How is that working out for many people? Not well.

We are living in a time of massive disruption. And it's going to get worse. Technology is going to eliminate many low paying jobs that many people need to survive. It's also true that technology will create jobs, but normally those jobs are reserved for people with much higher skills than flipping burgers.

Bernie's claims that the rich are out to get the middle class are ridiculous. We live in the richest country in America. As my rich friend told me "there is so much money in the world that if you were to take home $1b it would be a non-event."


Love this quote from Grant Cardone, because it's so true:

1) Most people don't know how to make money,
2) Fewer know how to keep it.
3) And almost no one knows how to multiply it.
 
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Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,478
524
126
So some people here claimed the RNC was 'fear mongering' when last night the DNC put an illegal immigrant and her daughter up on stage, saying she didn't want her mother deported. Definition of fear mongering, yet the same people don't acknowledge it. Usual hypocrisy though. Having someone actively breaking the law is celebrated, how nice. Both sides play the people, and most just eat it up.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,113
925
126
So some people here claimed the RNC was 'fear mongering' when last night the DNC put an illegal immigrant and her daughter up on stage, saying she didn't want her mother deported. Definition of fear mongering, yet the same people don't acknowledge it. Usual hypocrisy though. Having someone actively breaking the law is celebrated, how nice. Both sides play the people, and most just eat it up.

Both the RNC and the DNC wheeled certain people out and exploited them like political pawns. I felt that bringing people out, who admitted they are in the country illegally, sends out the wrong message and went a bit far. There is a message that we condone illegal activity and that basically the DNC supports that. Then, bringing out Michael Brown's mother to speak, the one who rejoiced on twitter, after two cops were killed, well that's just wrong too. Michael Brown was a criminal and he died while committing a criminal act. The DNC has taken the platform of appearing to support the criminal, while demonizing law enforcement officers. Americans are watching.
 
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Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,478
524
126
I agree both parties played the same game, it's sickening. I'm not a fan of either at the moment. And yes, they've used Brown's mom before, which crosses the line. It's been proven he was not holding his hands up, but instead trying to take the cops gun. He just committed a violent crime. Yet he is celebrated like he was innocent? How anyone can defend this is beyond me. There are plenty of wrongfully killed Americans by police to choose from, he is certainly not one. Using his mother to get more votes is despicable to me.

There was a lot of good at the DNC, yet endorsing some of the people like they did is just sad.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
So some people here claimed the RNC was 'fear mongering' when last night the DNC put an illegal immigrant and her daughter up on stage, saying she didn't want her mother deported. Definition of fear mongering, yet the same people don't acknowledge it. Usual hypocrisy though. Having someone actively breaking the law is celebrated, how nice. Both sides play the people, and most just eat it up.

Did you have more than just the one example? Because from what I've heard, a majority of the speakers at the RNC were talking pretty heavily doom and gloom.
 

Painman

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
3,805
29
86
Most Americans don't know how to make money. Period. I'm included in this.

It always amazes me that many native born Americans bitch that they can't find work or they don't make enough, yet when I talk to immigrants they're working 12-16 hour days. Why is this? Maybe it's because many Americans have just gotten lazy. And why not.

Live at home till your 30.
Can only work 40 hours a week.
Gotta have life/work balance
I want things for free.
Let's hate on the rich.
And on and on....

There were 500k millionaires made last year in America.

The way we think about money is broken. How many people here have had talks with their parents about money? About getting rich. So rich that you'll never EVER have to worry about money again.

Look at the middle class in 1974 and today:

Middle Class- 1974:

Education
Buy a Home
Retirement Account
Life Insurance
Good Paying Job
2 Weeks Off

Middle Class- Today:

Education
Buy a Home
Retirement Account
Life Insurance
Good Paying Job
2 Weeks Off

It's the same damn thing. Nothing has changed. How is that working out for many people? Not well.

We are living in a time of massive disruption. And it's going to get worse. Technology is going to eliminate many low paying jobs that many people need to survive. It's also true that technology will create jobs, but normally those jobs are reserved for people with much higher skills than flipping burgers.

Bernie's claims that the rich are out to get the middle class are ridiculous. We live in the richest country in America. As my rich friend told me "there is so much money in the world that if you were to take home $1b it would be a non-event."


Love this quote from Grant Cardone, because it's so true:

1) Most people don't know how to make money,
2) Fewer know how to keep it.
3) And almost no one knows how to multiply it.

The best business people in my community are immigrants; the worst are the the entrenched and complacent, and I have to admit it -- they're mostly white people.

White New England small business people can be such a pack of whiny, entitled knaves.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
So some people here claimed the RNC was 'fear mongering' when last night the DNC put an illegal immigrant and her daughter up on stage, saying she didn't want her mother deported. Definition of fear mongering, yet the same people don't acknowledge it. Usual hypocrisy though. Having someone actively breaking the law is celebrated, how nice. Both sides play the people, and most just eat it up.

How is that fear mongering? That is literally the publicly stated policy preference of her opponent.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
Haha Joe Scarborough nailed it this morning. Michelle Obama's was good but don't worry if you missed it last night because you'll hear it again at the 2020 RNC
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
I have to say, Bernie's speech last night was really good. Until he turned the subject towards Hillary. It is very doubtful that Hillary will do a lot of the things that Bernie says she will, I get the feeling that he himself doesn't believe it.

Also, the free education is a grand plan. However, if a single cent of my taxes are going into paying for some kid's education, there better be very strict requirements. The student does not get a check to cover his tuition unless he has at least a 3.5 GPA and must major in a STEM subject. None of the bullshit liberal arts major that does nothing.
 

Painman

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
3,805
29
86
The emasculation of Bernie Sanders was painful to behold.

I afforded him (me?) the dignity of not watching.

What he said was 100% right though, by any objective measure no rational person could choose Trump. It's the same thing he's been saying the entire time, actually.

In my experience, those who state, "No rational person could choose x", aren't
 
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