Democrats eye juicy 401K's (Again)

[Hacp]

Gore in 2000. Kerry in 2004. Kucinich in 2008. We've had our choices. I don't think bailing on 401(k)s is the answer. Fix the real problems. Put people in office who will fix the financial corruption, for example.

Like Obama? He probably has loyd blankfield on speed-dial.

 

[CPA]

You misunderstood my point. I'm saying, if the governent gives big tax breaks for the benefit of people having retirement money, but people are high risk and lose it all much of the time and are broke anyway, then the purpose of the tax breaks was not met - they may as well not have had the program. I'm saying the government has an interest in the retirement programs is subsidizes actually accumulating money.

I'd like to see the numbers showing people losing much of their 401K most of the time. The fact is they don't. Of course, you hear about the moron Enron employees who invested all of their Enron 401K into Enron stock and lost their ass, but 99.9% of 401K owners don't "lose it all much of the time and are broke anyway". You are just using the "we can't take care of ourselves - government save us" logic to rationalize your acceptance of more government control.

This is a money grab and nothing else. they will use this money to fund the general fund or other programs and stick IOUs in it's place, just like with SS.

 

[Craig234]

Like Obama? He probably has loyd blankfield on speed-dial.

Not so much, unfortunately.

 

[Craig234]

I'd like to see the numbers showing people losing much of their 401K most of the time. The fact is they don't. Of course, you hear about the moron Enron employees who invested all of their Enron 401K into Enron stock and lost their ass, but 99.9% of 401K owners don't "lose it all much of the time and are broke anyway". You are just using the "we can't take care of ourselves - government save us" logic to rationalize your acceptance of more government control.

This is a money grab and nothing else. they will use this money to fund the general fund or other programs and stick IOUs in it's place, just like with SS.

I wrote in the origina post that I was not saying that is what's happening. I've learned that *nothing*, not repeating, capitalizing, biolding, underling a disclaimer prevents at least one person not seeing it.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I new their were government employees posting here . But not this many .Its getting easy to spot you zebras

 

[Zebo]

Gore in 2000. Kerry in 2004. Kucinich in 2008. We've had our choices. I don't think bailing on 401(k)s is the answer. Fix the real problems. Put people in office who will fix the financial corruption, for example.

Would not have helped Craig. (as we see now with Democrats in charge)

We have fundamental structural issues with our economy - the vast majority of our productive economy the last 30 years, and more pointently the last 10, grew, simply because of the expansion of credit and the accumulation of debt. We have borrowed more in the last 10 than last 200 years combined! This is unsustainable and crash will not be pretty. I laugh at Republican worries of Social security and other 'entitlements' because they don't matter when they can't be paid anymore. And you can bet the bankers WILL be paid and Politicians salaries paid before one 'entitlement' program is. Now, since revenues to the productive economy have evaporated, tax receipts imploded, productive America is broke, government is broke as well. If America is not producing any income, we simply can't be a society based on a government that prints money and hands welfare out to its citizens.....eventually, every time, our currency and our economy will disintigrate.

 

[Craig234]

Would not have helped Craig. (as we see now with Democrats in charge)

We have fundamental structural issues with our economy - the vast majority of our productive economy the last 30 years, and more pointently the last 10, grew, simply because of the expansion of credit and the accumulation of debt. We have borrowed more in the last 10 than last 200 years combined! This is unsustainable and crash will not be pretty. I laugh at Republican worries of Social security and other 'entitlements' because they don't matter when they can't be paid anymore. And you can bet the bankers WILL be paid and Politicians salaries paid before one 'entitlement' program is. Now, since revenues to the productive economy have evaporated, tax receipts imploded, productive America is broke, government is broke as well. If America is not producing any income, we simply can't be a society based on a government that prints money and hands welfare out to its citizens.....eventually, every time, our currency and our economy will disintigrate.

I disagree on the others, but it's a matter of opinion, we can't prove either way.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post. Frankly, there's a right wing who has looked at this and thinks these sorts of criese are needed to gut the middle class that needs gutting, a la Grover Norquist.

Not that it's all big conspiracy, it's just what happens with too much concentrated wealth.

The solution, you guesses it, is progressives. The only viable solution.

 

[Zebo]

I disagree on the others, but it's a matter of opinion, we can't prove either way.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post. Frankly, there's a right wing who has looked at this and thinks these sorts of criese are needed to gut the middle class that needs gutting, a la Grover Norquist.

Not that it's all big conspiracy, it's just what happens with too much concentrated wealth.

The solution, you guesses it, is progressives. The only viable solution.

Much of their wealth will be diverted to Swiss banks etc if any real fair taxation comes down the line - Pols will attack the easy targets, moms and dads with a couple dollars in 401K, bank on it much like they attack w2 wages like not other.

 

[spidey07]

Please let the door slam you hard in the ass.

What's funny is you missed the other option of fight or flight. We are free people and will choose what is necessary to maintain it.

 

[Zebo]

I'd like to see the numbers showing people losing much of their 401K most of the time. The fact is they don't. Of course, you hear about the moron Enron employees who invested all of their Enron 401K into Enron stock and lost their ass, but 99.9% of 401K owners don't "lose it all much of the time and are broke anyway". You are just using the "we can't take care of ourselves - government save us" logic to rationalize your acceptance of more government control.

This is a money grab and nothing else. they will use this money to fund the general fund or other programs and stick IOUs in it's place, just like with SS.

google last 10 years stock and bonds performance. Lucky peoples 401K merely maintained principle & contribution funds, of course wiped out by inflation. But hey better than SS will be until now....

Your second point is dead on. This is a scam to prevent the collapse of the Treasury Market which no one else is buying! Forcing people into Treasuries as an so-called "annuity" is exactly what Social Security allegedly is. Except that Treasury already stole Social Security money for years ranging from 100-300 billion per annum and spent it!

 

[Zebo]

Oh and before you guys try and say Zebo is nuts they can't just steal your 401K/403B and other annuities check this out: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/financ..._seizes_pension_funds_to_pay_debts_Whos_next/

Any questions?

Have to admit it was a pretty cool trick they did back in 81', basically forcing, vi tax encouragement , people into 401ks, money out of reach until 59, allowed to 'grow' and now they have their beady little eyes on it. Pretty good for their buddies that run the pyramid scheme known as stock market too. You think Roths will be any different? You can't really believe they will allow you to take a small fortune out tax free can you? hehe. Always keep your money and assets close and readily accessible.

 

[boomerang]

It's not a matter of if this is going to happen, only when.

The only hope is a turnaround in the November elections. But anyone that does any reading is aware that the deck is stacked and being stacked further.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/01/understanding_the_democrats_sc.html

It's not going to end with retirement accounts.

 

[Zebo]

It's not a matter of if this is going to happen, only when.

The only hope is a turnaround in the November elections. But anyone that does any reading is aware that the deck is stacked and being stacked further.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/01/understanding_the_democrats_sc.html

It's not going to end with retirement accounts.

We fought one civil war, and we can fight another.

 

[Craig234]

We fought one civil war, and we can fight another.

1. No, the nation can't.

2. By the way, the last one lost.

 

[dmcowen674]

Democrats just cant seem to find enough money to satisfy their spending desires. But stealing your 401k from you would allow them to gorge on potatoes for a few more years.

Hope and Change.

Good hope they start with your account

 

[PELarson]

I new their were government employees posting here . But not this many .Its getting easy to spot you zebras

One sign of a government employee is that their grammar is atrocious.

 

[cubeless]

Like Obama? He probably has loyd blankfield on speed-dial.

i think he learned from tiger to just wipe his phone every night before going to sleep... my bet is that rahm has all the numbers...

 

[Extelleron]

Good hope they start with your account

So you are perfectly OK with the government stealing from individuals?

 

[suzeortoman]

Democrats just cant seem to find enough money to satisfy their spending desires. But stealing your 401k from you would allow them to gorge on potatoes for a few more years.

Hope and Change.

Remember back in 08 when there was talk to it?

http://www.workforce.com/section/00/article/25/83/58.php

Well, its back.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...tiatives-limiting-401-k-choices-ici-says.html

Americans Oppose Initiatives Limiting 401(k) Choices, ICI Says

Jan. 8 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. investors oppose federal initiatives that would force them to give up control over their 401(k) accounts, the Investment Company Institute said.

Seven in 10 U.S. households object to the idea of the government requiring retirees to convert part of their savings into annuities guaranteeing a steady payment for life, according to an institute-funded report today.

“Households’ views on policy changes revealed a preference to preserve retirement account features and flexibility,” the institute, which represents the mutual-fund industry, said in the report.

The U.S. Treasury and Labor Departments will ask for public comment as soon as next week on ways to promote the conversion of 401(k) savings and Individual Retirement Accounts into annuities or other steady payment streams, according to Assistant Labor Secretary Phyllis C. Borzi and Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary Mark Iwry, who are spearheading the effort.

The institute’s member companies manage $11.6 trillion of assets in mutual funds, including employer-sponsored 401(k) accounts. Some lawmakers have questioned the public-policy value of the tax benefits for people investing in retirement accounts, the ICI said in a report today.

The average 401(k) fund balance dropped 31 percent to $47,500 at the end of March 2009 from $69,200 at the end of 2007, according to a Fidelity Investments review of 11 million accounts it manages. The Standard & Poor’s 500 Index tumbled 46 percent in that period. The average balance of the Fidelity accounts recovered to $60,700 as of last Sept. 30 as the stock market rebounded.

Senator Herb Kohl, chairman of the Senate Special Committee on Aging, proposed legislation on Dec. 16 to require fund companies to do more to ensure 401(k) options are appropriate for workers. The Wisconsin Democrat cited reports that target- date funds designed for people retiring in 2010 invested in high-yield, high-risk corporate bonds.

Representative George Miller, a California Democrat, is advocating legislation to require more disclosure about 401(k) fees paid by investors. The Education and Labor Committee, which Miller leads, approved a bill requiring more disclosure about fees in June.

The ICI survey was based on a telephone survey of 3,000 households from Nov. 20 to Dec. 20 and had a sampling error of plus or minus 1.8 percent.

http://market-ticker.org/archives/1830-401kIRA-Screw-Job-Coming.html



Now this is a guaranteed rape job.

In a short conversation this noontime that CNBC apparently has omitted from their archives (Why's that folks?) Rick Santelli was talking about a potential to effectively force money into the Treasury market.

Where would they get this?

From your 401k and IRA accounts!

From Businessweek:

The U.S. Treasury and Labor Departments will ask for public comment as soon as next week on ways to promote the conversion of 401(k) savings and Individual Retirement Accounts into annuities or other steady payment streams, according to Assistant Labor Secretary Phyllis C. Borzi and Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary Mark Iwry, who are spearheading the effort.

Let me tell you what this is - it is an attempt to prevent the collapse of the Treasury market!

Forcing people into Treasuries as an "annuity" is exactly what Social Security allegedly is. Except that Treasury stole the money that was collected in FICA taxes and spent it!

Guess what? They'll do that here too - you're going to "invest" in Treasuries which of course are effectively a CALL option on the future taxing ability of the government.

The problem is that with an aging population and the immigrant problem (illegal immigrants that is), along with offshoring, the aggregate wage base will drop and thus this is the most dangerous investment of all!

What's even worse is that the government has intentionally suppressed Treasury yields during this crisis (and will keep doing so by various means, including manipulating the CPI - the "inflation index" - as they have for the last 30 years) so as to guarantee that you lose over time compared to actual purchasing power.

THIS HAS BEEN THE CASE SINCE THE 1980s AND IT WILL NOT CHANGE!

I have been talking about this for quite some time and recall writing a Ticker on it a year or more ago, although I can't find the entry immediately.

Let me be clear:

I have no quarrel with the government mandating that you have a choice in your IRA or 401k account to buy short-duration Treasuries - much like the "G" fund that government and civil-service workers have.

But - "choices" have a funny way of turning into mandates, and this looks to me like a raw admission that Treasury knows it will not be able to sell its debt in the open market - so they will effectively tax you by forcing your "retirement" money to buy them!

This may be the only way for Treasury to hold down interest rates to something reasonable in the intermediate term, but doing so will instantaneously remove a major source of funding for the stock market - that is, the monthly and quarterly inflows from retirement accounts.

You can bet this won't be good for you, the ordinary American.

You can also bet that once such an "option" is made available there is a very high probability of the government doing things that either promote or simply don't stand in the way of another stock market crash as a means of "herding" your money into Treasuries - so they can blow it - all under the guise of being allegedly "safe".

Of course this begs the question - what if the government can't pay down the road when you retire, just as they can't pay on a forward basis with Social Security and Medicare?

This "proposal" can only mean one thing - Treasury smells smoke. Maybe you should pay attention to what they're huffing!

And before you say "oh they'd never do that" I want you to read this:

Here is a warning to us all. The Argentine state is taking control of the country’s privately-managed pension funds in a drastic move to raise cash.

...

My fear is that governments in the US, Britain, and Europe will display similar reflexes. Indeed, they have already done so. The forced-feeding of banks with fresh capital – whether they want it or not – and the seizure of the Fannie/Freddie mortgage giants before they were in fact in trouble (in order to prevent a Chinese buying strike of US bonds and prevent a spike in US mortgage rates), shows that private property can be co-opted – or eliminated – with little due process if that is required to serve the collective welfare.

Any questions?

PS: If the video shows up I'll update this ticker.... and if you're wondering what hammered the dollar starting at about 9:00 today, this is probably it. Such a "move" would free the government to further abuse the issuance of Treasuries rather than take necessary austerity steps and places us even further down the road toward a political and economic collapse.

The good news is that we have choices outside of 401(k)s. When you consider the amount of wealth that was recently transferred from the middle class to the wealthy, do you really want to continue playing the 401(k) games? Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me. Right? You may want to look into a self directed IRA which will allow you to make decisions on how your money will be invested outside of stocks, bonds, and mutual funds.

You may then want to explore a higher-return, lower-risk strategy in order to reach your goals. A strategy outside of stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. Keeping an open mind to your options will allow you to discover a virtually untapped method that can allow you to build wealth in a fraction of the time. The higher the return, the quicker wealth can be accumulated and with the low-risk nature of this option, it's really a great way to grow your money fast. I have details on my home page.

 

[Special K]

The good news is that we have choices outside of 401(k)s. When you consider the amount of wealth that was recently transferred from the middle class to the wealthy, do you really want to continue playing the 401(k) games? Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me. Right? You may want to look into a self directed IRA which will allow you to make decisions on how your money will be invested outside of stocks, bonds, and mutual funds.

Aside from the fact that your post is blatant spam, one reason why the IRA is not a suitable replacement for the 401k right now is the contribution limits. Currently the 401k has an annual contribution limit that is ~3x that of the IRA.

You may then want to explore a higher-return, lower-risk strategy in order to reach your goals. A strategy outside of stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. Keeping an open mind to your options will allow you to discover a virtually untapped method that can allow you to build wealth in a fraction of the time. The higher the return, the quicker wealth can be accumulated and with the low-risk nature of this option, it's really a great way to grow your money fast. I have details on my home page.

This doesn't make sense either. High returns and low risk don't go together.

 

[Blackjack200]

I have free ipods on my home page.

ficksed.

 

[DietDrThunder]

I'm thinking if this were about to take place, I'd be better off paying the 10% penalty for early withdrawl, pay the income taxes, and move the money to an off shore account.

 

[werepossum]

The good news is that we have choices outside of 401(k)s. When you consider the amount of wealth that was recently transferred from the middle class to the wealthy, do you really want to continue playing the 401(k) games? Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me. Right? You may want to look into a self directed IRA which will allow you to make decisions on how your money will be invested outside of stocks, bonds, and mutual funds.

You may then want to explore a higher-return, lower-risk strategy in order to reach your goals. A strategy outside of stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. Keeping an open mind to your options will allow you to discover a virtually untapped method that can allow you to build wealth in a fraction of the time. The higher the return, the quicker wealth can be accumulated and with the low-risk nature of this option, it's really a great way to grow your money fast. I have details on my home page.

Won't make any difference. It'll start with a "One-time contribution" tax on all retirement accounts. That will fund the shortfall when foreign investors really drop US T-bills big time, maybe for a couple of years. Then there will probably be a plethora of small taxes enacted to fill the gap for a year or three. But eventually the Dems will have to come back to this pot of money; it's just too big, and the shortfalls too massive, for them to ignore it. We're borrowing, what, fifty cents of every dollar we spend now?

If there are any safe places they will be set up through unions or in some arcane system that the very wealthiest employ. You can move money off-shore, but in most countries the US can obtain reports on how much money US citizens have on deposit; even the Swiss are caving. And if you move your money to a nation that does not cooperate with the USA - what's to keep THAT country from taking your money?