Denuvo Anti-Tamper (anti-piracy solution)

[Carfax83]

That's anti-tamper, not DRM

This new anti-piracy solution has been making waves lately for frustrating pirates. Just a few games have been using it, but so far, none of them have been cracked. Fifa 15, Lords of the Fallen, and now Dragon Age Inquisition. Fifa 15 has been out for two months, and Lords of the Fallen for almost a month.

Various explanations have been given for why these games haven't been cracked so far. The most popular one being, that Fifa 15 and LotF aren't really popular games and thus don't deserve special effort from piracy groups, and so they're taking longer than the norm.

If you buy that excuse, then Dragon Age Inquisition will be the true test of Denuvo, because DAI is undoubtedly a very popular game and any pirate/piracy group that manages to crack that will undoubtedly gain a lot of notoriety and street cred.

There's also a rumor circulating around that Denuvo drastically increases the amount of writes to storage, which can potentially shorten the lifespan of an SSD or even kill it outright. This rumor started on some Russian piracy forum, and is almost undoubtedly pure FUD. Numerous tests by legitimate game owners have shown that the reads and writes to storage aren't any higher than normal..

So one might assume that the pirates' frustration in cracking Denuvo is leading them to spreading FUD in an attempt to stir feelings of resentment and hostility towards it in the PC gaming community..

Anyway, what are your thoughts on Denuvo? Do you think it will benefit PC gaming in the long run, or prove to be detrimental like other anti-piracy measures before it?

Also if it becomes widely adopted, do you think PC game sales will increase as a result?

And how would you feel if the CDPR's the Witcher 3 decided to use it?

Denuvo website

 

[RampantAndroid]

I'm fine with DRM when:
There's no install limit count (Spore, Bioshock.)
It doesn't cause performance to drop any amount.
It doesn't make me jump through hoops just to play
I don't need to be online all the time (Ubisoft)

As long as the DRM is neither obtrusive or invasive, I see no reason to care.

 

[Fire&Blood]

I'm spending the weekend with a peasant just for Inquisition, that's how I feel about Denuvo. If Denuvo is attached to more games, the ones I'm simply too weak to boycott (GTA V, MGS), I'll play them on consoles. To be clear, I'm not dodging Denuvo because of tinfoil hat arguments, it's a matter of principle for me. I still stand my ground firmly on preorders and will stand my ground on Securom too.

If Denuvo becomes a standard down the road and I'm forced into AAA exile, so be it. I'm still optimistic that GOG, Steam and MMO's will ease the boycotting for me. I'm tempted to argue that most games featuring Denuvo won't be good PC experiences anyway.

As for Witcher 3, I would play it on console if the PC version had ebola but there is no way in hell Witcher will have Denuvo attached to it.

 

[SLU Aequitas]

I'm spending the weekend with a peasant just for Inquisition, that's how I feel about Denuvo. If Denuvo is attached to more games, the ones I'm simply too weak to boycott (GTA V, MGS), I'll play them on consoles. To be clear, I'm not dodging Denuvo because of tinfoil hat arguments, it's a matter of principle for me. I still stand my ground firmly on preorders and will stand my ground on Securom too.

If Denuvo becomes a standard down the road and I'm forced into AAA exile, so be it. I'm still optimistic that GOG, Steam and MMO's will ease the boycotting for me. I'm tempted to argue that most games featuring Denuvo won't be good PC experiences anyway.

As for Witcher 3, I would play it on console if the PC version had ebola but there is no way in hell Witcher will have Denuvo attached to it.

What's so bad about Denuvo?

 

[Fire&Blood]

What's so bad about Denuvo?

Like I said it's a matter of principle for me. I doubt they would be that stupid to wreck SSD's and fight lawsuits, that's not the reason I am avoiding it. I simply boycott any titles that resort to more DRM's or anti tampons or whatever they want to call them.

:biggrin: That sig of yours

 

[RussianSensation]

I don't believe in ANY anti-piracy barriers on the PC. If you want to support game developers, but can't afford to buy $50-60 games, you will just wait and fairly purchase them at a later date at discounts on Steam/GOG, Origin, etc. OTOH, if you have been pirating games forever, these SecureROM measures will do nothing. As a pirate you won't spend $50 on the game and you will either skip it or pirate it later when it's finally cracked.

Therefore, all these measures only hurt the legitimate consumers.

The problem of piracy has A LOT to do with crazy overpriced price of games worldwide. I can totally understand why PC gamers in poor countries pirate games. A lot of people in Russia only make $500-1000 a month, or about 5-10X less than a similar job in US/Canada. Yet, DAI Deluxe is $45 USD. No sh!t, your games get pirated. Until publishers get that due to purchasing power you MUST price PC games differently for different markets, the piracy on the PC will not be stopped. Steam has proved that with reasonable regional pricing, people start paying for PC games (Russia, China, Brazil).

 

[ImpulsE69]

It will get cracked in time. Everything does. It's not even a matter of piracy, just the matter of they like a challenge.

 

[bystander36]

Like I said it's a matter of principle for me. I doubt they would be that stupid to wreck SSD's and fight lawsuits, that's not the reason I am avoiding it. I simply boycott any titles that resort to more DRM's or anti tampons or whatever they want to call them.

:biggrin: That sig of yours

So the principle is that you think games should be pirated? If there is another reason, please explain yourself. On what principle do you hate it? If it doesn't get in your way, and stops pirating, what ideal is being broken?

 

[Berliner]

Fifa 15 has been out for two months

Everyone can just take a marker and replace the 14 on their box with a 15.

I guess that is really a low incentive game to attack, yet a very high profile one.

 

[Jodell88]

Ummm I see FIFA 15, Lords of the Fallen and Dragon Age: Inquisition available for download on pirate sites. The FIFA download even includes updates. :biggrin:

 

[Fire&Blood]

So the principle is that you think games should be pirated? If there is another reason, please explain yourself. On what principle do you hate it? If it doesn't get in your way, and stops pirating, what ideal is being broken?

No I don't think games should be pirated, not sure how you got that from my post. I've resigned to the fact that I need Origin and Uplay on top of Steam. And so I draw the line right there. Any title that needs more than that doesn't get my money.

This is just my stance, I am not advocating for everyone to think like I do.
I could have easily gotten Inquisition and found out about Denuvo after the fact. My no preorder policy saved me from making that mistake. I don't think that games that are great PC experiences have to resort to Denuvo or whatever copycats may be coming down the road.

I also don't think that the prices are the problem, even though I spend way more than I should. Personally, I think this is one of the greatest problems with gaming:

 

[frozentundra123456]

I don't believe in ANY anti-piracy barriers on the PC. If you want to support game developers, but can't afford to buy $50-60 games, you will just wait and fairly purchase them at a later date at discounts on Steam/GOG, Origin, etc. OTOH, if you have been pirating games forever, these SecureROM measures will do nothing. As a pirate you won't spend $50 on the game and you will either skip it or pirate it later when it's finally cracked.

Therefore, all these measures only hurt the legitimate consumers.

The problem of piracy has A LOT to do with crazy overpriced price of games worldwide. I can totally understand why PC gamers in poor countries pirate games. A lot of people in Russia only make $500-1000 a month, or about 5-10X less than a similar job in US/Canada. Yet, DAI Deluxe is $45 USD. No sh!t, your games get pirated. Until publishers get that due to purchasing power you MUST price PC games differently for different markets, the piracy on the PC will not be stopped. Steam has proved that with reasonable regional pricing, people start paying for PC games (Russia, China, Brazil).

So you think businesses that produce a commodity should price it so a certain target market can afford it instead of what makes a reasonable profit for them? Games are not a necessity. If one cant afford them, dont buy them, or wait for a sale and buy it then. Not being able to afford a game is certainly no excuse to pirate it.

 

[SPBHM]

Ummm I see FIFA 15, Lords of the Fallen and Dragon Age: Inquisition available for download on pirate sites. The FIFA download even includes updates. :biggrin:

but you cannot play, it's for people waiting for the crack


anyway, I think asking the same prices for console and PC games, digital and retail is quite wrong;

as for Denuvo they did a great job apparently, other games like GTA5 are going to use it, games without it like the latest Assassins Creed are cracked instantly, while Dragon Age can only be played by paying whatever price they ask (or with a hacked last gen console)

Fifa 15 is a popular game in many places, there is more than enough incentive for cracking it, and after a couple of months, nothing.

 

[Skurge]

I'm spending the weekend with a peasant just for Inquisition, that's how I feel about Denuvo. If Denuvo is attached to more games, the ones I'm simply too weak to boycott (GTA V, MGS), I'll play them on consoles. To be clear, I'm not dodging Denuvo because of tinfoil hat arguments, it's a matter of principle for me. I still stand my ground firmly on preorders and will stand my ground on Securom too.

If Denuvo becomes a standard down the road and I'm forced into AAA exile, so be it. I'm still optimistic that GOG, Steam and MMO's will ease the boycotting for me. I'm tempted to argue that most games featuring Denuvo won't be good PC experiences anyway.

As for Witcher 3, I would play it on console if the PC version had ebola but there is no way in hell Witcher will have Denuvo attached to it.

Steam is also DRM.

Denuvo seems fine to me. Doesn't do anything bad it seems. Most people say they can't even tell it's there. So what the problem? If it gets cracked or not, not my concern. As long as it doesn't get in the way of my enjoyment of the game. I couldn't care less really.

 

[Kalmah]

If it's non intrusive, doesn't effect performance, and I can still play my game 30 years from now, I don't care.

I don't know if developers are really losing money due to piracy, but if it satisfies them without dissatisfying me, as well as keep the developer in business so that I can enjoy future games then they can do what they must.

 

[bystander36]

No I don't think games should be pirated, not sure how you got that from my post. I've resigned to the fact that I need Origin and Uplay on top of Steam. And so I draw the line right there. Any title that needs more than that doesn't get my money.

This is just my stance, I am not advocating for everyone to think like I do.
I could have easily gotten Inquisition and found out about Denuvo after the fact. My no preorder policy saved me from making that mistake. I don't think that games that are great PC experiences have to resort to Denuvo or whatever copycats may be coming down the road.

I also don't think that the prices are the problem, even though I spend way more than I should. Personally, I think this is one of the greatest problems with gaming:

I've been playing Dragon Age Inquisition and the only reason I know that the DRM exists is because of this thread. It appears to be completely hidden from view. Is that really a problem?

Seriously, if that is a problem, to have a method to slow/stop piracy, and the user has no knowledge, then I can't understand why you'd have some problem with it, unless you are a closet pirate.

U-play is the only thing I'm aware of, as far as I can see.

 

[Jodell88]

If it's non intrusive, doesn't effect performance, and I can still play my game 30 years from now, I don't care.

That's the elephant in the room. So far, some Ubisoft I own can't run because of DRM incompatibilities with Windows 7. I can only play them with cracks.

 

[Bubbleawsome]

I have a few cracked NFS games because origin broke my copys when I changed emails. That's all fixed though.

BTW, denuvo was cracked in 36 days on fifa 14. This version of it might be harder.

 

[Carfax83]

So you think businesses that produce a commodity should price it so a certain target market can afford it instead of what makes a reasonable profit for them? Games are not a necessity. If one cant afford them, dont buy them, or wait for a sale and buy it then. Not being able to afford a game is certainly no excuse to pirate it.

That's a good reply to RS's sentiments..

The problem with piracy is that pirates think they are entitled to enjoy the fruits of other peoples' labors without compensating them....and that's wrong. I don't give a damn about their stupid excuses or whether they can afford it..

Besides, I have a hard time believing that people who can afford to buy a PC that's capable of playing these cutting edge games, can't afford to buy a freaking game..

That rationale belies human nature. If people can get it for free, they will get it, even if they can afford it.

Only PC gamers that realize how much damage piracy does to PC gaming as a hobby and pastime are strictly anti-piracy.

 

[RampantAndroid]

If it's non intrusive, doesn't effect performance, and I can still play my game 30 years from now, I don't care.

I don't know if developers are really losing money due to piracy, but if it satisfies them without dissatisfying me, as well as keep the developer in business so that I can enjoy future games then they can do what they must.

Add this to my list - absolutely. If the DRM doesn't break when a server goes down....

 

[Martimus]

I'm fine with the DRM if it doesn't affect me. If it actually stops piracy, then all the better.

I would prefer to stop people from attempting to pirate in the first place than to continue to put bigger and more elaborate locks in place. Right now there is no real deterrent to stealing software. I would love something so simple as a $250 fine plus triple MSRP for pirating software. In this case it would work out to $430 for DAI, and for higher priced software it would be even higher. The problem is that there is no effort to track down the thieves of software, even though tracking them is quite easy right now. Even if only 10% of the pirates were caught and prosecuted, it would be a large deterrent to trying to steal, and the casual thief would likely not even try. That would take a lot of the incentive away from software companies to pay large sums of money for intrusive DRM solutions that annoy their paying customers in order to protect them from those that don't pay. That would be a solution I could see having long term inroads into ending irritating DRM.

 

[master_shake_]

i like cd projekt red.

no drm cause it's a waste of money.

take that money and put it in to development.

 

[SPBHM]

i like cd projekt red.

no drm cause it's a waste of money.

take that money and put it in to development.

I don't know, how much does it cost for integrating Denuvo?
it can't be to significant compared to developing the entire game/marketing

also I'm not sure, I feel like not being able to pirate a game always helps sales on the PC, if from 1000 people that would pirate, 50 or 100 buy the game (specially at launch with the stupid high prices) this is already a win, if the cost for DRM is not absurd.

as for the witcher, they are a smaller dev, they used the "DRM free" thing to gain attention, I'm not sure it would work for EA?

 

[BSim500]

If you buy that excuse, then Dragon Age Inquisition will be the true test of Denuvo, because DAI is undoubtedly a very popular game and any pirate/piracy group that manages to crack that will undoubtedly gain a lot of notoriety and street cred.

From a technological sense, Denuvo is impressive that it hasn't been cracked (or takes ages to crack). Unfortunately, one developer of one of those protected games (Lords of the Fallen) has openly stated it comes with a 5% performance penalty that's specifically due to Denuvo, so it certainly isn't "free". Someone specifically asked a developer over on the Bioware forums what its performance impact is on DAI, and the response was a sleazy politician "non answer" along the lines of "the only way to be sure is to benchmark it with and without, and we haven't bothered, so there." :hmm:

There's also a rumor circulating around that Denuvo drastically increases the amount of writes to storage, which can potentially shorten the lifespan of an SSD or even kill it outright. This rumor started on some Russian piracy forum, and is almost undoubtedly pure FUD. Numerous tests by legitimate game owners have shown that the reads and writes to storage aren't any higher than normal..

As for the "Denuvo killed my SSD thing", as mentioned previously, the only way to be sure is much more thorough metrics gathering. If the writes are a result of increased swap activity on 3-4GB low-memory systems with the page-file enabled on an SSD, the potential is there for damage (which may not be replicated on higher +5GB memory rigs). I really haven't seen much information either way. The original claim didn't have much in the way of proof that it does, nor did the "debunking" actually debunk anything simply by showing the .exe write requests (which exclude higher level page-file writes which are a function of higher level windows memory management, not the .exe). Only way of knowing for certain is to enable pagefile on SSD, then record SSD data written via CrystalDiskInfo before vs after during a 6-8hr gaming session. Then replicating it on a lower memory rig (ie, run with only 4GB RAM not 8-16GB).

Also if it becomes widely adopted, do you think PC game sales will increase as a result?

Depends on the game. Some games are so bad / badly consolized, even the pirates won't steal them... :biggrin:

And how would you feel if the CDPR's the Witcher 3 decided to use it?

Not happy. I really don't like any DRM which slows performance / locks you into a remote activation server, and despite attempts to downplay it, the overhead of constantly shuffling around memory code around is certainly not "free" by any metric.

Edit: All three Witcher games are on GOG (who have a strict no DRM policy), so DRM for W3 is already ruled out.

 

[Eric1987]

That's a good reply to RS's sentiments..

The problem with piracy is that pirates think they are entitled to enjoy the fruits of other peoples' labors without compensating them....and that's wrong. I don't give a damn about their stupid excuses or whether they can afford it..

Besides, I have a hard time believing that people who can afford to buy a PC that's capable of playing these cutting edge games, can't afford to buy a freaking game..

That rationale belies human nature. If people can get it for free, they will get it, even if they can afford it.

Only PC gamers that realize how much damage piracy does to PC gaming as a hobby and pastime are strictly anti-piracy.

I disagree and completely think differently. Pirates Do NOT think they're entitled and piracy doesn't affect NEARLY as much as you think.