Detroit Water Act: Inhumane or Necessary

[Mark R]

Here in the UK it's illegal to cut off power and water. For those customers who get in arrears the utilities will install a pay as you go meter.

It is illegal to cut off water. However, flow restrictors are widely used and very effective. They are easily installed in minutes in place of the shut-off valve at the road.

It is not illegal to cut off other utilities, and disconnecting electricity and natural gas is done regularly.

In practice, the utilities don't like to disconnect, they prefer to install pre-payment meters (these must be pre-loaded with credit, like a prepay cell phone, and when the credit is depleted, the meter shuts off the power/gas). With prepayment meters, the meter can be set to recover any debt over a preset period. However, if the customer refuses a prepayment meter, or a prepayment meter is inappropriate (e.g. in an apartment block, where the meters are stored in a locked machine room and the residents can't access the meters), then they will disconnect.

The other issue is that if a utility actually disconnects the power/gas to a building, they are legally obliged to remove or disconnect any piping or wires that will fall into disuse (they cannot leave a live wire or live gas pipe which goes nowhere - the pipe or cable must be disconnected at both ends or removed completely within 6 weeks of one end being disconnected). This can be very expensive as this usually requires digging up roads (for gas pipes), and if the customer has defaulted on a bill already, then it's unlikely that they will ever pay the disconnection or reconnection fees, which can run into several $k.

 

[phucheneh]

So the UN guarantees a right to safe water?

Seems like there are plenty of UN countries where that just isn't the case. Does all of India have access to either clean running water or free bottled water or something?

What about Iraq and Afghanistan? Sudan and the Congo? Bolivia and Ecuador? I'm not terribly up to date on my impoverished countries, so I may not be picking the best examples. But still...

 

[shortylickens]

OK, I take it back.
Fuck them.

If all of a sudden they can pay after being cutoff, then obviously they were milking the system. Sons of bitches.

 

[lupi]

I always said the easiest way to solve Detroit is to vastly shrink the city's footprint. Seems like this is one way of doing it.

 

[veri745]

<snip>

But now a hypothetical question.

Assume your current financial situation.

Imagine that you lived in a city where about half the people didn't pay for water and the government was going to bail them out.

Would you continue to pay?

There are other ramifications to not paying your utility bills. It affects your credit, you will end up with creditors persuing you for collection. They gov't can put liens on your property.

These just happen to be things that the poorest don't care about.

I'm not going to have my credit put through the ringer to save $15/mo on water.

 

[sourceninja]

How do you make it "free"?

Someone has to build the products that collect the water. Someone has to collect the water. Someone has to maintain the products that collect the water. Build the products that clean the water. Perform the cleaning of the water. Maintain those products. Someone has to build & maintain the products that distribute the water.

How do you accomplish all that work with all those materials at no cost?

You could accomplish your tasks through enslaving the population into working for you at no cost... short of that, is there any other option to providing free drinking water?

Not to mention that the majority of tap water goes to bathing, toilets, and watering your grass. I'd guess very little is for actual drinking. It would be nice if more cities would let us collect and use grey water.

 

[OutHouse]

How do you make it "free"?

Someone has to build the products that collect the water. Someone has to collect the water. Someone has to maintain the products that collect the water. Build the products that clean the water. Perform the cleaning of the water. Maintain those products. Someone has to build & maintain the products that distribute the water.

How do you accomplish all that work with all those materials at no cost?

You could accomplish your tasks through enslaving the population into working for you at no cost... short of that, is there any other option to providing free drinking water?

so pay for water or die is what you are saying.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Not to mention that the majority of tap water goes to bathing, toilets, and watering your grass. I'd guess very little is for actual drinking. It would be nice if more cities would let us collect and use grey water.

I find it's completely retarded that some places don't allow that. THAT is a violation of human rights, you should be able to gather whatever the hell you want when it comes straight from nature. Thankfully we don't have any retarded laws like that here. If I wanted to I could just go scoop up water at any lake or river. Heck, most cottages just get their water from the lake. Throw a bit of Javex in it and it's safe to use for cleaning or drinking (though it wont taste very good) Some people have rain barrels too. I've thought of setting some up, but pay flat rate for water anyway.

 

[BUTCH1]

Sounds like once they cut it off they started paying, they just weren't because they were not being forced too. Some people will take the free ride as far as they can but will pay up when forced to.

Yea, that about sums it up, everyone else has to pay or get shut off, why should one area be "special" and get free water, fuck that, fuck them pay up or no water, I'm facing financial hard times myself but I always get the damm bill paid, my town will shut you off after one notice..

 

[Matt1970]

Drinking water is a basic human right it should be free.

It is. It falls out of the sky all the time. Drink all you want. If you want someone to collect it, treat it and pipe it into your house, there will be a fee for that.

 

[poofyhairguy]

so pay for water or die is what you are saying.

No one is going to die in America from thirst, at least not without trying. Many public fountains, many public bathrooms, and almost every fast food place will give you a water cup for free.

 

[Mark R]

It is. It falls out of the sky all the time. Drink all you want.

This is illegal in a number of states (not MI).

In OR and UT, collecting rainwater on your land will get you thrown in jail.

 

[T9D]

This is illegal in a number of states (not MI).

In OR and UT, collecting rainwater on your land will get you thrown in jail.

You can collect rain water in Oregon.

You can't just damn up a huge area of runoff and make a pond or small lake and not let any of it go though to the rivers and lakes though. Well you can if you get some water rights and permit.

But you can collect it from your roof or driveway run off at any time and not get in trouble.

 

[Mike Roch]

Necessary is a ways ahead. I voted for Necessary because if it was inhumane and ruled down, I wouldnt pay my water bills any more.

 

[zinfamous]

Drinking water is a basic human right it should be free.

technically, you can go get water for free any time you want, and just about anywhere you live--you just have to collect it and purify it adequately yourself.

And you have to do that a lot.

Modern home water distribution isn't some sort of magic fairy invention that just happened for free. You pay for conveniences all the time in every thing you do in life.

Food is technically free. You can grow your own veggies and hunt your own meat, clean it, preserve it, and prepare it. You can do this all you want, provided you have to will to put in the effort.

 

[Dannar26]

Some people are just can't manage their finances like grown-ups, but deserve everything anyway, asshole!

Fixed for Democrat.

 

[pcgeek11]

This is illegal in a number of states (not MI).

In OR and UT, collecting rainwater on your land will get you thrown in jail.

Now that is the very definition of stupid there.

 

[bononos]

You can collect rain water in Oregon.

You can't just damn up a huge area of runoff and make a pond or small lake and not let any of it go though to the rivers and lakes though. Well you can if you get some water rights and permit.

But you can collect it from your roof or driveway run off at any time and not get in trouble.

Yes and theres even a tax incentive for rainwater harvesting. But libertarian noisemakers will take any opportunity to bash big government even if its not true.

 

[KMFJD]

I always said the easiest way to solve Detroit is to vastly shrink the city's footprint. Seems like this is one way of doing it.

Detroit City Council would have a field day with any such attempt by outsiders to do this....

 

[TheSlamma]

The US has so many surplus nukes, I don't see why they just can't blow a smoking crater in Detroit and start over.

cause it's not even worth starting over. Just abandon the place and let it turn into a real life episode of "After we're gone"

 

[poofyhairguy]

cause it's not even worth starting over. Just abandon the place and let it turn into a real life episode of "After we're gone"

That is basically what is happening.

 

[Golgatha]

I agree that people should pay their bills, but I'm sick of this kind of idiocy. "You don't have money because you spent it all on luxuries." Some people are just broke, asshole.

No, most people are broke because of bad decisions and life choices. Not all, but most.

 

[CycloWizard]

Looks like these guys read my previous thread:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2266670

 

[werepossum]

The US has so many surplus nukes, I don't see why they just can't blow a smoking crater in Detroit and start over.

Detroit is just the culmination of a big problem that's been slowly festering all over North America. Governments spending more than they could take in. So they supplement it by taking out loans. Which works in the short term, assuming that the government is taking in enough revenue to service interest payments.

In the case of Detroit, you have a perfect storm. A city built on a single industry that collapsed. Which led to wealthy people and businesses packing up and leaving. Which eroded both the the tax and capital bases. Which exacerbated the unemployment issue. Now the city has to deal with raising rates of crime and poverty, and has no money left to deal with them because they can't get loans.

It's not a Democrat vs Republican thing either, as both are pretty guilty of reckless spending. Debt should be used in times of emergency, not to run everyday government. There also needs to be a focus on diversified economies, instead of creating banana republics.

In the case of Detroit, the state or federal government really needs to step in and take over management of the city. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications of that are, but it's a pretty disgraceful situation for the world's richest country.

Except for that tongue-in-cheek first sentence, yep. The question would be is this only places like Detroit, or is this the future for most American cities and Detroit only has a big head start from their perfect storm?

How is this even news?

If you don't pay utility bills, said utilities get shut off.

But Detroit is so fucking awful that 'city hires people to loosely enforce nationwide standard restricting paid utilities to people who are paying for them' is a headline? Jesus christ Detroit.

One reason is that in Detroit, the delinquencies run to almost half of the residential customers. How could that not be news?

The U.N. is supposedly going to step in and pay these folks' water bills. I'll believe it when I see it, but it would be nice to get some of our own back.

 

[zerocool84]

I just paid my utilities today. I'm sure if I didn't pay my water it would he shut off.