DeVos confirmed as Ed Secretary

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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,848
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Of course, teaching things you agree with is fine, teaching things you don't agree with is "indoctrination". That's fine, as long as everyone has a choice..... but lefties want to make sure there's no choice, and kids can only get the "correct" education based on the lefty perspective.

I was unaware that "choice" has been completely removed from where a parent sends their kids to school. What happened to all the private schools? Are they closed? How will vouchers work with no choices?

Or are you saying you can't make a "choice" without the government subsidizing you?
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
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https://www.google.com/search?q=indoctrination&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

So answer the question, because nothing I've seen from public school applies.

I'll tell ya something else, I did 8-12 grade in a Christian school. We had bible class, chapel, required weekly bible verses to memorize, and essays to do. And no, being critical wasn't accepted. Open debates were not part of it, and stepping out of line meant detentions and possible suspension.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,544
3,471
136

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
https://www.google.com/search?q=indoctrination&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

So answer the question, because nothing I've seen from public school applies.

I'll tell ya something else, I did 8-12 grade in a Christian school. We had bible class, chapel, required weekly bible verses to memorize, and essays to do. And no, being critical wasn't accepted. Open debates were not part of it, and stepping out of line meant detentions and possible suspension.

It's a good thing you (or rather, your parents) had the right to decide if the education was appropriate for you. If not, they could <gasp> send you to another school. Your personal experience with a particular school is an anecdote. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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lol. I want your own words and thoughts, not a smartass link that isn't even an article and is filled with the likes of infowars. Funny joke though, that infowars and company are good reading. I see why you are what you are now. When asked for your own thoughts, you are an empty shell.

That wasn't a link to infowars, but hey, if you're incapable of discerning good links from infowars links, then I can't help you much anyway.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,544
3,471
136
That wasn't a link to infowars, but hey, if you're incapable of discerning good links from infowars links, then I can't help you much anyway.

You sure can't, Mr. Empty Shell.

So far all I have as an example of "liberal indoctrination" is "ability to create an independent thought."
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,212
15,787
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The goal is to provide students with an education. The tax dollars are used for that purpose. There is nothing that says taxpayer dollars have to be used solely to pay for public education. IMO if taxpayer dollars are used to pay for someone's education, then the taxpayer (ie, the government) has a right to attach some basic conditions (minimum standards of what that education has to include).

Your tax dollar goes to public institutions and infrastructure. You don't get to direct how the money is spent other than electing representatives that you think line up with your thinking.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,653
12,778
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Do they still do pledge of allegiance etc in school? I didn't really notice it at the time, but that some pretty severe patriotic indoctrination. All history was extolling the actions of America/Americans (in whatever point of history), and never really went into what happened in other nations/parts of the world, aside from the big ones like WW2 (and even that only really covered the US interaction with it). I didn't even know that Canadia invaded the US and burned down Washington in the 1800's until several years after HS (thanks, Wikipedia). They even 'celebrated' the defeat of the Alamo.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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I was unaware that "choice" has been completely removed from where a parent sends their kids to school. What happened to all the private schools? Are they closed? How will vouchers work with no choices?

Or are you saying you can't make a "choice" without the government subsidizing you?

Nope, private schools are there of course, but they cost a lot of money. People with with money already have choices. We're talking about people who can't afford to have those choices, those most vulnerable to being stuck going to low performing public schools. Essentially the government spends x per pupil in the public school system. There's nothing wrong with taking that same amount x and letting the parents decide where to spend it to educate their child. The total dollars don't change, and the parents have more choices.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,653
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Nope, private schools are there of course, but they cost a lot of money. People with with money already have choices. We're talking about people who can't afford to have those choices, those most vulnerable to being stuck going to low performing public schools. Essentially the government spends x per pupil in the public school system. There's nothing wrong with taking that same amount x and letting the parents decide where to spend it to educate their child. The total dollars don't change, and the parents have more choices.

If I've learned anything, it's that most people should NOT be relied on to make decisions like this. Present the offering in the best way possible (legitimately), transparently (so people can understand why x or y decision was made), and let them know that's the choice, or they can go elsewhere (like to another district). As soon as you let people NOT part of the system decide how it's run, it's destined to fail.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
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It's a good thing you (or rather, your parents) had the right to decide if the education was appropriate for you. If not, they could <gasp> send you to another school. Your personal experience with a particular school is an anecdote. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sure, it's their right to leave me at a disadvantage going into adulthood. We should champion this. I spent half a decade trying to catch up.

And you still haven't answered the question.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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Your tax dollar goes to public institutions and infrastructure. You don't get to direct how the money is spent other than electing representatives that you think line up with your thinking.

You think your tax dollars go exclusively to public institutions and infrastructure? When they purchase a set of ipads or chromebooks for students, that money goes to a private supplier. This is no different. The private institution supplies the education.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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Sure, it's their right to leave me at a disadvantage going into adulthood. We should champion this. I spent half a decade trying to catch up.

And you still haven't answered the question.

Well, if you want to argue that the great government knows better than parents what is best for their children, then that's fine, we'll have to disagree. Further, vouchers or no vouchers, parents already have and will continue to have the right to choose private education for their children, whether you like it or not. Your example would not be changed one way or the other. We're talking about giving parents with limited means the same options parents with more money have.

Also, I provided the answer, you chose not to use it.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
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No, you gave a link. You continue to avoid actually putting in a post how exactly public schools are indoctrinating children.

If you think I'm alone, think again.

My argument has, and always will be, religion has no place in a real education. You want to learn about Jesus and the Bible, fine...Sunday comes once a week....oh and don't forget the other 16 hours a day you're not in school.

You are only ok with real indoctrination, and try to pull that bullshit "oh you guys are doing it too", but fail to show how.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
No, you gave a link. You continue to avoid actually putting in a post how exactly public schools are indoctrinating children.

I have neither the time nor inclination to go into those details with you since I know you won't listen anyway. A link is perfectly sufficient for you to be able to read for yourself. There's plenty of information out there.

If you think I'm alone, think again.

Sadly, I know you're not a lone, there's a lot of other "great nanny state to rule over the subjects" type thinkers.

My argument has, and always will be, religion has no place in a real education. You want to learn about Jesus and the Bible, fine...Sunday comes once a week....oh and don't forget the other 16 hours a day you're not in school.

That's fine, that's your opinion. Others do not have to share it. People can home school, they can go to private schools, or they can go to public schools. Who are you to decide for them what should be included in their schooling or not included?

You are only ok with real indoctrination, and try to pull that bullsh*t "oh you guys are doing it too", but fail to show how.

I'm OK with parents deciding what kind of education their kids get. Many parents already have that option to make that decision -- only poor parents or parents of limited means lack that option. Why do you hate the poor or people of limited means?
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
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I have neither the time nor inclination to go into those details with you since I know you won't listen anyway. A link is perfectly sufficient for you to be able to read for yourself. There's plenty of information out there.



Sadly, I know you're not a lone, there's a lot of other "great nanny state to rule over the subjects" type thinkers.



That's fine, that's your opinion. Others do not have to share it. People can home school, they can go to private schools, or they can go to public schools. Who are you to decide for them what should be included in their schooling or not included?



I'm OK with parents deciding what kind of education their kids get. Many parents already have that option to make that decision -- only poor parents or parents of limited means lack that option. Why do you hate the poor or people of limited means?
Says he won't articulate it... because the many people asking to read it won't listen.

Yeah... I think you're frustrated that we won't agree with your conclusions/ideas. If you aren't willing to have your ideas tested, GTFO of the message board game, man.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,701
25,034
136
I have neither the time nor inclination to go into those details with you since I know you won't listen anyway. A link is perfectly sufficient for you to be able to read for yourself. There's plenty of information out there.

LOL, that is just lame. Grow a pair and use your own words. Or do you really deep down in your heart of hearts that your position is indefensible?
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,636
136
Of course, teaching things you agree with is fine, teaching things you don't agree with is "indoctrination". That's fine, as long as everyone has a choice..... but lefties want to make sure there's no choice, and kids can only get the "correct" education based on the lefty perspective.
The problem is that those on the right consider things like global warming, evolution, geologic history of the earth, and other such subjects as indoctrination. So yes, those on the left are concerned that kids get the correct education. We care that kids are learning scientific facts and opinions supported by facts. The right wants all opinions to receive equal consideration, regardless of how well supported those opinions are.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,653
12,778
146
The problem is that those on the right consider things like global warming, evolution, geologic history of the earth, and other such subjects as indoctrination. So yes, those on the left are concerned that kids get the correct education. We care that kids are learning scientific facts and opinions supported by facts. The right wants all opinions to receive equal consideration, regardless of how well supported those opinions are.

Tribalism! And not everyone on the right wants or respects those notions. There are a few crazies out there, sure, but I seriously doubt the word 'most' would be applicable here.

There is plenty of indoctrination in the US education system though, IMO. Just in different forms, and up for debate as to whether it's a bad thing or not.
 
Feb 16, 2005
14,035
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Tribalism! And not everyone on the right wants or respects those notions. There are a few crazies out there, sure, but I seriously doubt the word 'most' would be applicable here.

There is plenty of indoctrination in the US education system though, IMO. Just in different forms, and up for debate as to whether it's a bad thing or not.
I agree, mostly with this, but the right has been on a mission and as a whole, to discredit climate change science, I cannot think of many republican elected officials who not only embrace the science behind climate change, but actively pursue a resolution for it.
I'm sure there are a few, but the voices of the many outweigh the voices of the few, especially in this issue.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
I have neither the time nor inclination to go into those details with you since I know you won't listen anyway. A link is perfectly sufficient for you to be able to read for yourself. There's plenty of information out there.

lol...

Sadly, I know you're not a lone, there's a lot of other "great nanny state to rule over the subjects" type thinkers.

pft, you mean out of the box, free thinking individuals. sadly for you, not everyone can be theologically indoctrinated so easily. Unfortunately, it is not easy to shed the mindset and thinking patterns once established.

That's fine, that's your opinion. Others do not have to share it. People can home school, they can go to private schools, or they can go to public schools. Who are you to decide for them what should be included in their schooling or not included?

As a society, we all reap the consequences of the education of our fellow citizen, positive and negative. Indoctrination, which is exactly what religious schools aim to do

I'm OK with parents deciding what kind of education their kids get. Many parents already have that option to make that decision -- only poor parents or parents of limited means lack that option. Why do you hate the poor or people of limited means?

lol, nice try. The new Ed secretary is all about that Religious school. Onward Christians soldier, need them so beliefs, half-truths, and outright lies are easy to swallow.
 
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