Dharun Ravi Found Guilty in Rutgers Trial

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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Society should have intervened by not stigmatizing homosexuality, so that the other kid could just come out and say, yeah I got me some, so what, instead of being so ashamed of it that he would kill himself. College kids are going to do stupid stuff and charging them with felonies for candid camera pranks is not going to prevent suicides.

You don't know what it will prevent. Suicide is a complex issue but feelings of isolation and self-worth are a huge factor. Again, people are social animals. Whatever you tell yourself, at the end of the day if everyone is telling you being gay is bad you are not going to be happy if you're gay. Walking around campus with his head held high won't matter for crap if everyone is laughing behind his back about his fucking some dude on a recorded video. This is what the "It gets better" campaign is all about. It's important for kids to hear athletes and other people with status to tell them they're okay (although again it's probably not enough.)

Anyway, the fact that you think this level of malice is merely a prank means there's not much more to discuss (it also suggests you haven't really read or understood many of the details in the story). In the realm of civil law, it would be considered intentional infliction of emotional distress. It should be sanctionable. Quipping that it's a prank doesn't change the fact that it should be punished by society.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Guess what's going to make gay students more isolated. Their peers wanting nothing to do with them for fear they'll kill themselves and some prosecutor will say it's something you did that caused it and charge you with hate crime.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Guess what's going to make gay students more isolated. Their peers wanting nothing to do with them for fear they'll kill themselves and some prosecutor will say it's something you did that caused it and charge you with hate crime.

Completely ridiculous. I just don't see how this follows at all. It's really NOT THAT HARD to not record people without their permission. I really have no idea where you're coming from. It's like acting like people won't be able to having a college experience if extreme hazing isn't allowed. Guess what, extreme hazing is stupid. So is videotaping someone having sex and publishing it on twitter. Wtf...

And maybe people should be scared that the way they treat other people could have serious consequences. Is that so bad? That's the reality. When people are treated like shit they are worse off. They in turn take it out on other people and the cycle continues. This is the basic idea behind karma. Pretty much all religions and secular ethical systems recognize that abusing your fellow man is wrong. Why aren't you grasping this? (It's a bizarre world you live in where people have a right to air conditioners but you expect them to suck up abuse from their fellow man and deal with it. Those priorities are backwards.)
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
People keep saying that he recorded the act. He didn't. That's part of the misinformation from the first days of the case. He observed via the webcam for several seconds, but he did not record anything.
 

between

Senior member
Jul 12, 2008
504
0
0
This IDIOT was offered a deal where he would face NO jail time and they would help him avoid deportation. Should have taken it.

I can't understand why he didn't accept that offer. He would have had to do 600 hrs community service, but no jail time, and probably get to stay in the states. But he turned it down... Crazy.

If he'd accepted the offer, and made a public apology acknowledging that he behaved in a very thoughtless & callous way, then he might have actually been able to rehabilitate his reputation. People can be forgiving, if they sense someone is making a sincere apology.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,660
491
126
People keep saying that he recorded the act. He didn't. That's part of the misinformation from the first days of the case. He observed via the webcam for several seconds, but he did not record anything.

While he didn't record him he it's still an invasion of privacy and he tweeted about the incident, how many such incidents were there? Even if he didn't record the Tyler Clementi he invited others to watch the webcam stream with him.

I haven't really followed the case much after I read about it a year or two ago but I thought it was a pretty shitty thing to do to someone. We don't know what the contents of the tweets were. I'm sure the jury got to review what they were.

Supposedly Ravi, told a friend when he found out who his roommate was and that he was gay "Fuck my life, my roommate is gay."

Does he deserve 10 years? I don't know. It does sound very high since he didn't intend for a suicide to occur. However, he might not get that anyway. He didn't kill Tyler Clementi but the webcam incident(s) unfortunately either sent him on the course to commit suicide or added more pressure to do something that he may have been planning anyway.
Just like being ignorant of the law isn't considered an excuse for breaking it I just can't excuse that invasion of privacy and then the likely ridicule that Tyler Clementi underwent.
However, while Ravi was invading Tyler Clementi's for fun and ridicule he didn't mean for him to commit suicide. While the potential is 10 years I'd think something around 5 years would be enough.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
I can't understand why he didn't accept that offer. He would have had to do 600 hrs community service, but no jail time, and probably get to stay in the states. But he turned it down... Crazy.

If he'd accepted the offer, and made a public apology acknowledging that he behaved in a very thoughtless & callous way, then he might have actually been able to rehabilitate his reputation. People can be forgiving, if they sense someone is making a sincere apology.

Because state prosecutor can not guarantee no deportation if he charges with a felony. It's not the same judge that approves the deal and decides deportation. Felony plea is grounds for deportation.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Completely ridiculous. I just don't see how this follows at all. It's really NOT THAT HARD to not record people without their permission. I really have no idea where you're coming from. It's like acting like people won't be able to having a college experience if extreme hazing isn't allowed. Guess what, extreme hazing is stupid. So is videotaping someone having sex and publishing it on twitter. Wtf...

And maybe people should be scared that the way they treat other people could have serious consequences. Is that so bad? That's the reality. When people are treated like shit they are worse off. They in turn take it out on other people and the cycle continues. This is the basic idea behind karma. Pretty much all religions and secular ethical systems recognize that abusing your fellow man is wrong. Why aren't you grasping this? (It's a bizarre world you live in where people have a right to air conditioners but you expect them to suck up abuse from their fellow man and deal with it. Those priorities are backwards.)

Why take the risk? If you are a college kid and your roommate is an emo gay dude, and if he kills himself you could be charged with a hate crime because you said something or pulled a prank that some prosecutor claims was homophobic, safest thing is just to pretend he doesn't exist and not talk to the guy. If that makes him more isolated, too bad. Nobody wants to be friends with people who have to be handled with kid gloves, more so if your freedom is on the line.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
Because state prosecutor can not guarantee no deportation if he charges with a felony. It's not the same judge that approves the deal and decides deportation. Felony plea is grounds for deportation.

on balance though, given odds of conviction, it's a better deal since he has cooperation of prosecuting attorney. And immigration judges are looking for violent felons to deport, not prankster kids.

I stopped caring about Ravi when I learned that he turned down a plea deal. If he truly feels that he did nothing wrong in Clementi's case and should walk...I don't know what to say. He did do wrong and he should pay with community service.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
on balance though, given odds of conviction, it's a better deal since he has cooperation of prosecuting attorney. And immigration judges are looking for violent felons to deport, not prankster kids.

I stopped caring about Ravi when I learned that he turned down a plea deal. If he truly feels that he did nothing wrong in Clementi's case and should walk...I don't know what to say. He did do wrong and he should pay with community service.

Prosecutor could have offered him a misdemeanor plea with community service. Instead he offered him a felony plea with risk of deportation. Nonviolent felonies are deportable too.
 
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micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
Prosecutor could have offered him a misdemeanor plea with community service. Instead he offered him a felony plea with risk of deportation.

Did he have an option of misdemeanor under NJ law? The fact that the prosecutor offered cooperation and preventing deportation makes me think that he is aware of the implications and wants to prevent deportation.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
People keep saying that he recorded the act. He didn't. That's part of the misinformation from the first days of the case. He observed via the webcam for several seconds, but he did not record anything.

He had set up the camera to record any second acts and was planning to broadcast it. He inviting people to this viewing to laugh at the gays.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Did he have an option of misdemeanor under NJ law? The fact that the prosecutor offered cooperation and preventing deportation makes me think that he is aware of the implications and wants to prevent deportation.

He wanted a plea, so he promised stuff he couldn't deliver even if he wanted to. Deportation is not his area of authority. Immigration judge would not be bound by his promises.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
He wanted a plea, so he promised stuff he couldn't deliver even if he wanted to. Deportation is not his area of authority. Immigration judge would not be bound by his promises.

My point is that

-- there might not be a misdemeanor invasion of privacy and spying under NJ law. The accusation has to fit the crime. He is guilty of invasion of privacy IMO. Whether that is considered a felony or misdemeanor is up to NJ law.

-- The prosecutor offered to help him prevent deportation. That is important I feel, since the prosecutor is signaling that he does not want deportation as he feels it is too much.

-- a judge would likely be swayed by a) the non-violent nature of the crime and b) the prosecutor writing a letter stating that he felt that Dharun should not be deported. Not 100%, but when people talk about deporting felons, they mean people who commit violent crimes.
 

Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
91
agreed. he should have accepted the plea bargain and stfu. his lawyer, if he didn't counsel so, was a dumbass!

He refused it because he has no remorse for his actions and he felt he did nothing wrong. He was provided a very fair deal, he turned it down due to his lack of empathy and compassion for his victim and his dysfunctional narcissistic persona. He chose to fall own his own sword by taking the risk.

He is a disgrace to his family who left India to work hard in this country and provide him with everything he needed for a better life here in the us.

The end result fits the bill.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
Deport him and call it a day. India in most places is a utter shithole anyways, life in a US prison would be kind to him compared to going to India.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Not exactly related but I feel if someone has spent nearly their whole life in this country, then we really should not deport them, even if they never obtained citizenship. Doesn't seem right that someone comes here at 1 years old lives here for 18 years, commits a crime and now is sent back to place he doesn't even remember.

There are stories of people being deported to countries who language they don't speak, where they don't know anyone, and are left to fend for them self.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,278
9,361
146
Lovely, wise and compassionate formal statement from Tyler's father, Joe Clementi:

Joe Clementi was accompanied by his wife, Jane, and their son, James:

Good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of the family and our supporters, I’d like to thank Judge Berman, who presided over the process in a firm but restrained way that maintained the dignity of the court while preserving the rights of the press, and for his sensitivity to the need to protect the privacy of the victims.

Thanks to the Middlesex County Prosecutor’s Office for their investigation and presentation of the case, especially to First Assistant Julia McClure, who not only prepared and presented the case thoroughly but who was very sensitive to our concerns and our feelings and took great care to protect the privacy of our son and his friend, M.B.

And of course, thank you to the folks at the victims advocacy unit [actual name appears to be the Victim Advocacy Center] who took care of all of our needs during this stressful time.

The trial was painful for us, as it would be for any parent who must sit and listen to people talk about bad and inappropriate things that were done to their child. We were here every day because we wanted to be here for our son and because we believe the trial was important because it dealt with important issues for our society and for our young people today and because of worldwide media attention that was brought to it. The criminal law is important because it deals with conduct that we find so bad, that we make it a crime.

We have come to understand that the criminal law is only one way of addressing these problems and that there are other ways that are better, particularly when it comes to changing the values and behavior of young people in [the] important areas of respect, privacy, responsibility in a digital world.

As you know, our lives have taken a new turn, and we’re on a mission to address these issues in an affirmative way through the Tyler Clementi Foundation, which we have set up in memory of our son. We hope that the media attention will not fade and that positive efforts on these important issues will be acknowledged. Just a word about personal responsibility.

To our college, high school and even middle-school youngsters, I would say this: You’re going to meet a lot of people in your lifetime. Some of these people you may not like. But just because you don’t like them, does not mean you have to work against them. When you see somebody doing something wrong, tell them, “That’s not right. Stop it.”

You can make the world a better place. The change you want to see in the world begins with you.


We will be issuing a statement regarding the results of the trial in the near future via press release. I thank you for your attention.

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2012/03/16/statement-by-tyler-clementis-father-after-dharun-ravi-conviction/?mod=google_news_blog

I could only hope, in the wake of harassment that contributed to the death of my 18 year old son, that I could respond in such a measured and non-attacking manner.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
While he didn't record him he it's still an invasion of privacy and he tweeted about the incident, how many such incidents were there? Even if he didn't record the Tyler Clementi he invited others to watch the webcam stream with him.

There was a second event which he tweeted about, but it wasn't successful. I think the camera was covered or he didn't connect (not sure). However, as I stated earlier, the jury felt that this was key to escalating the event.

Note that I'm not defending him. I am just clarifying the facts. I think this is important in order to understand why people feel what he did wasn't worthy or was worthy of prosecution.

I haven't really followed the case much after I read about it a year or two ago but I thought it was a pretty shitty thing to do to someone. We don't know what the contents of the tweets were. I'm sure the jury got to review what they were.

I think we know the content of a lot of tweets, as well as IMs, emails, etc. Both Clementi and Ravi expressed prejudicial views of each other, but Ravi went beyond that in his actions.

Supposedly Ravi, told a friend when he found out who his roommate was and that he was gay "Fuck my life, my roommate is gay."

Does he deserve 10 years? I don't know. It does sound very high since he didn't intend for a suicide to occur. However, he might not get that anyway. He didn't kill Tyler Clementi but the webcam incident(s) unfortunately either sent him on the course to commit suicide or added more pressure to do something that he may have been planning anyway.
Just like being ignorant of the law isn't considered an excuse for breaking it I just can't excuse that invasion of privacy and then the likely ridicule that Tyler Clementi underwent.
However, while Ravi was invading Tyler Clementi's for fun and ridicule he didn't mean for him to commit suicide. While the potential is 10 years I'd think something around 5 years would be enough.

The issue of his suicide was not at trial.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,660
491
126
The issue of his suicide was not at trial.

While it may not be, it's highly unlikely that given such a high profile news story that they found jurors who had not even the slightest inking of what happened. So we cannot be sure that every jury member was able to be totally unaffected by that detail.

Bottom line though is that the Ravi should've taken the plea deal. I don't think the Prosecution tried for more than they thought they could reasonably get a successful conviction on. Prosecutors who do that probably wouldn't have a job for very long.

Wasn't part of the plea deal the fact that they would help Ravi stay in America instead of letting him be deported due to a felony on his record?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
People keep saying that he recorded the act. He didn't. That's part of the misinformation from the first days of the case. He observed via the webcam for several seconds, but he did not record anything.

That's my understanding as well.

Furthermore:

1. Clementi wasn't 'outed'. His older brother is openly gay. Tyler had already spoken to both his brother and father about his own feelings.

2. I read remarks by his father saying he himself could not connect the suicide to this incident. Too many people seem to think Clementi was 'outed' and therefore committed suicide. There was supposed to be some kind suicide note, but I've heard what info, if any, it contained.

3. There was no sex observed by anyone. Clementi's brother said there was kiss, that's all.

It's a little difficult to know what's actually true given so many variants, but I'm going to believe Clementi's family. If so, this case has been horribly distorted, and makes me wonder why?

The story was originally that:

1. Clementi was taped and it played on the internet

2. Gay sex was taped

3. This was Clementi being 'outed'

Since #1- #3 appear to be clearly false, I seriously doubt this incidence was responsible in any meaningful way for the guy committing suicide.

Hence, seems like a very unfair conviction/sentence for azzhole prank by a stupid college kid.

Fern
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
While it may not be, it's highly unlikely that given such a high profile news story that they found jurors who had not even the slightest inking of what happened. So we cannot be sure that every jury member was able to be totally unaffected by that detail.

Bottom line though is that the Ravi should've taken the plea deal. I don't think the Prosecution tried for more than they thought they could reasonably get a successful conviction on. Prosecutors who do that probably wouldn't have a job for very long.

Wasn't part of the plea deal the fact that they would help Ravi stay in America instead of letting him be deported due to a felony on his record?

One juror even said he hoped it would bring closure to the family or something to that extent. Ravi was a scapegoat they sacrificed for the benefit of the suicide kid's parents.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
My point is that

-- there might not be a misdemeanor invasion of privacy and spying under NJ law. The accusation has to fit the crime. He is guilty of invasion of privacy IMO. Whether that is considered a felony or misdemeanor is up to NJ law.

-- The prosecutor offered to help him prevent deportation. That is important I feel, since the prosecutor is signaling that he does not want deportation as he feels it is too much.

-- a judge would likely be swayed by a) the non-violent nature of the crime and b) the prosecutor writing a letter stating that he felt that Dharun should not be deported. Not 100%, but when people talk about deporting felons, they mean people who commit violent crimes.

People get deported for non-violent and even victimless felonies. Even if he's not deported after serving his sentence, he could be denied his green card when it comes up for renewal due to having a felony rap sheet and deported then. You are going to tell me the prosecutor is going to give a sh!t after he gets the guilty plea that he is after? Even if he does, he's not going to be making that call, a judge or immigration official will be.
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
One juror even said he hoped it would bring closure to the family or something to that extent. Ravi was a scapegoat they sacrificed for the benefit of the suicide kid's parents.

So who was Ravi a scapegoat for??
Is there somebody else the authorities should be looking at??
 
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