Diablo 3 Expansion announced!

[diesbudt]

People farm gear because they have crap gear and the good stuff is so rare, not because it's fun to farm gear. You upgrade by getting better gear.

Instead, if they made it so you upgraded based on time played (which is basically what paragon levelling is), people would farm XP.

People farm gear because they can, not because there's something inherently fun about farming for drops.

This also solves your proposal of farming "better" stuff and not the "best" stuff. You can't go from plvl 50 to plvl 100 in one shot, you have to progress slowly through all the intermediate stuff. There's no AH for XP, although people do pay for power levelling.

In order to not completely kill itemization, they could have the random affix be something interesting, like the puzzle ring, or the litany rings. Maybe there's something that could give a character a passive from another class or something.

Did I say farming gear is fun? No. It is REWARDING. Psychologically the brain center for rewards lights up when you see that shiny new piece that happens to be better and makes your character stronger. Thus making you want to do it again, so you can get that feeling again.

This is what is called a "hook" in a video game. The carrot on the stick. The carrot to keep someone playing as long as possible. So yes, gear being hard to get and random is VASTLY important to these types of games. Otherwise once you hit max level, or see the story. Who cares?

Also just farming Xp for "better gear" isn't enough. That reward is too minor. It isn't enough to keep a hook, and also shows too long of a time vs reward. Winning the lottery (aka finding an amazing piece after 25 hours of killing things) is a much stronger reward feeling in the brain, and sends the chemicals of Dopamine to make one feel "happier" and thus wanting to play more to re-achieve this feeling. And the "lottery" has the illusion of a possible higher reward to effort ratio than just farming XP for better gear.

Games that are considered RPG has replay value though gear as a "hook". To keep one playing beyond just the story. It has been proven in the past on games it has a stronger psychological impact than AA or farming some currency for something that will automatically happen after X effort. Removing said hook, would make the game less rewarding and thus people would stop playing.

And the word "fun" can be used as there are plenty of people who enjoy and have fun at challenges. (FYI that is all a game is, is doing something harder than it is as a challenge to oneself):

Perfect example golf. What is the goal? Put a ball in a hole. So easy. However, let us make it harder and challenging so we can enjoy such a task. Let us use a stick with a head at the end to hit it with (club). Let us also set a "restriction" of how many hits on average it takes to get said ball into the hole (Par). next let us set traps and boundaries to make it more challenging and difficult to up the difficulty factor which increases reward and fun (sand, water, out of bounds).

That is what a game is. This is also why D3 still holds a decent population even though the "older generation" who is blinded by nostgalia (a legit psychological factor in games from ye old past) and swears D2 is better, when in reality D2 and D3 are much more similar. Or why people say X game from 5-10 years ago (Input any older game here) was better. (You know how often Grandparents love to talk about the "good ole times" and the "I walked 15 miles uphill both ways. . .") It is the same thing. Yet compared today to 1940. Do you see all the advances, easiness and options to enjoy ourselves now than back then? Yet Grandparents still swear the 1940s-1950s were the "best decade" so on so forth.

One of the most successful things in Wow MoP was the challenge modes in dungeons. (At first very hard) and the reward was average at best. But it was the challenge of doing it that people enjoyed and have fun and why they kept doing it.

 

[thespyder]

and the fact that there is no cap, meaning there will always be a sense of progression, although I assume once you reach Paragon level 200 it will probably take you 3 months to level up, but hey, its there

I have to say I disagree with you on this. No cap does not mean that there will always be a sense of progression. To me it means that level advancement beyond a certain point has no real meaning anymore. it also means that they want to keep on bilking players into playing the game ad-infinitum. Only to do that they need to make it worth my time to do that.

"For me", the fact that you can constantly switch around your skill sets really genericizes the classes. Played one Demon Hunter, played them all. Some people say it makes for loads of different builds. If you can switch out at the drop of a hat, that isn't a 'Build' in my book. It's a strategy. And there is a difference.

Gotta say that the guys at Feedbackula got it right when they said that the biggest problem was the focus on the Auction house. "For me" the game shouldn't be about going to the store and buying the best gear, it should be about finding loot and treasure as a result of killing monsters (i.e. hoards and off of their corpses, not running back to town to read 56,000 message board notices on what to buy next.

If Blizzard were to change their approaches to either or both of these, I "Might" at least follow the reviews. As it is, this is another money grab. Shame because it really soured me towards their games. I didn't even buy Heart of the swarm despite being a big Tricia Helfer fan.

 

[smackababy]

The game had nothing to do with the AH. I fail to see how anything changed because of it. Remove the AH, you have the exact same game, with the exact same problems. The only difference is you'd be struggling in Inferno with no monster power, crying to Blizzard for a nerf or better drops.

You can completely ignore the AH and go about pretending it doesn't exist. Drop rates aren't different because of it, in fact, they are MUCH MUCH MUCH higher than they were in D2. Don't believe me? Go ask how many people actually found a WF? It is very few.

 

[thespyder]

@smackababy - we can agree to disagree because in my opinion, you do fail to see how things changed with AH (although you begin to scratch the surface in your comment about Inferno).

Drop rates might be higher in D3, doesn't mean that the items are as good, or more importantly as balanced as necessary for game progression. 10X the junk is still junk.

 

[smackababy]

@smackababy - we can agree to disagree because in my opinion, you do fail to see how things changed with AH (although you begin to scratch the surface in your comment about Inferno).

Drop rates might be higher in D3, doesn't mean that the items are as good, or more importantly as balanced as necessary for game progression. 10X the junk is still junk.

And 90% of what people used in D2 was junk. You just didn't get that because Hell could be done in white items, same as in D3.

Blizzard added a new level of progression (Inferno) that is much harder than anything seen in previous Diablos. They also added a way for people to exchange gear without having to browse some obscure forum. It was (eventually) intuitive to search for gear that would be an upgrade. That part of the game is completely separate from the core ARPG that is Diablo. Item trading happened in D2, it just wasn't as organized or streamlined. It also did nothing to address the inevitable inflation that occurs when there is an unlimited resource (gold) being given out. They taxed it and removed some every time a transaction was made. Blizzard did underestimate the amount of people that wanted the instant gratification of being able to buy items rather than farm them, though. However, that doesn't change anything about the game itself.

People who claim D3 is bad because of the AH, either haven't played D3 or are complete morons.

 

[thespyder]

I'm not going to chase down this rabbit hole with you. Nor do I appreciate name calling, though I do think that it points to the strength of your argument that you feel name calling is the only way to win a point.

Have a good day.

 

[silverpig]

The game had nothing to do with the AH. I fail to see how anything changed because of it. Remove the AH, you have the exact same game, with the exact same problems. The only difference is you'd be struggling in Inferno with no monster power, crying to Blizzard for a nerf or better drops.

You can completely ignore the AH and go about pretending it doesn't exist. Drop rates aren't different because of it, in fact, they are MUCH MUCH MUCH higher than they were in D2. Don't believe me? Go ask how many people actually found a WF? It is very few.

I mostly agree. The AH did change the game, but not fundamentally. If you got rid of the AH, we'd all be struggling at MP1 inferno (it would just be called inferno).

No AH:
-casual players stuck at inferno act 2, grinding act 1 (no MP levels)
-dedicated players able to grind any act they want

With AH:
-casual players stuck grinding MP5
-dedicated players able to grind MP10 if they want

The AH just upped the difficulty that people can play at, so they created more difficulties. At the end of the day, you're still stuck playing at a level where you die some times, hoping to find a piece of gear that will allow you to upgrade

With no AH, that gear is a direct upgrade you can put on your character. With the AH, that gear is something valuable you can sell for gold so you can buy an upgrade

So yeah, the game is pretty much the same. The AH did change things, but only cosmetically.

 

[Alex C]

And 90% of what people used in D2 was junk. You just didn't get that because Hell could be done in white items, same as in D3.

Hell in D3 was nowhere near the difficulty of Hell in D2. D2 Hell is more similar to a low MP Inferno, and good luck doing that with white items. 90% of what people used may have been crap, but the game accounted for that by making it interesting crap, and giving you the ability to customize your character to get the most out of your gear. That's where D3 fails.

In both games, I never traded with anybody outside the five or so friend's I played with and never used the AH. In D2, I was able to find my own usable gear right up through Players8 Hell. When D3 launched, Inferno without the AH was almost impossible. Drop rates and difficulty absolutely do take the AH into account. Even now, I struggle with anything over MP2 and the drop rates are so low I hadn't found an upgrade in over a month of playing before I quit. It doesn't matter if D3 technically drops more Legendaries if the amount of usable drops is so low that you can't progress. D2 also had periods where I wasn't finding many upgrades, but I was always finding gear I could use with other characters or gear that was interesting enough to try building a whole new character around. In D3 I have my four characters and if something doesn't have enough primary stat/crit/speed it's useless to everybody. Playing any of my characters is a grind and the lack of customization means there's no other fun characters I can work on to break the grind.

That said, I'm cautiously optimistic about the relative silence coming from the devs since they booted Jay Wilson and some of the things they're promising in the patch might get me playing again. I doubt it'll ever be enough to make it as great as D2, but I'd be willing to settle for just good.

 

[thespyder]

The very simple and basic fact that AH exists increases the potential of any given player to have ‘Better’ gear than the standard drop balanced strategy scenario would account for. It is as simple as that; increased access translates into the basic bell curve getting shifted (however large or small) towards ‘Better’ equipment regardless of drop rate.

To combat this, the DEVS had 2 choices. The first would be to decrease the delta between standard gear (those items that fall in the middle of the bell curve on the drop list, not necessarily ‘white’ items) and the ultra high end gear. The other option is to increase the overall difficulty of the game, particularly at the higher levels (or once the players actually can afford items). Either would counter the ‘Potential’ increase in effectiveness of a given character due to increased possibility of better gear.

You can decide for yourselves if either (or both) scenarios were employed in the game development. But both have a direct and tangible impact on game play. And given that the AH is actually an integral part of the game itself, even the potential difficulties of having to go outside the game (as we saw in D2) to get special items is removed.

Bottom line. Auction house as part of the game structure increases availability of items. Regardless of if you actually choose to use the AH, the DEVs had to plan on a certain level of usage. Hence they had to make tangible changes to the game structure. If you don’t feel them, that just speaks to the skill with which they did it, not that the change didn’t occur or that it wasn’t tangible.

I suppose to be fair, there is a third scenario that the DEVS could potentially employ. That would be to do nothing, but that would generally make the game easier for those who do use the AH. And since the general consensus is that it doesn't get easier, I think we can pretty much rule that out.

 

[Tweak155]

While I didn't do the item grind on D2 or D3, I definitely did it on D1. In D1 I could actually go in looking for a specific unique and find it. Not saying I found it instantly, but it was often enough that it would keep me playing.

D2 I used bots for most my item grinding, not gonna lie.

In D3 it was a pure waste of time because I mostly found junk even when it was a high level rare / unique. Otherwise I probably would have kept playing.

People keep arguing "well then everyone would have the same gear"... so? I don't really care what everyone else has. Not really relevant to my enjoyment of finding good gear.

 

[ewdotson]

I remember trading chipped gems for items in D2. People with better gear used SoJs as currency. The only real difference between that and the (gold) AH is that the AH is more accessible and easier to use than having to go to a third party site.

 

[diesbudt]

I mostly agree. The AH did change the game, but not fundamentally. If you got rid of the AH, we'd all be struggling at MP1 inferno (it would just be called inferno).

No AH:
-casual players stuck at inferno act 2, grinding act 1 (no MP levels)
-dedicated players able to grind any act they want

With AH:
-casual players stuck grinding MP5
-dedicated players able to grind MP10 if they want

The AH just upped the difficulty that people can play at, so they created more difficulties. At the end of the day, you're still stuck playing at a level where you die some times, hoping to find a piece of gear that will allow you to upgrade

With no AH, that gear is a direct upgrade you can put on your character. With the AH, that gear is something valuable you can sell for gold so you can buy an upgrade

So yeah, the game is pretty much the same. The AH did change things, but only cosmetically.

Untrue actually.

You can clear inferno with effort and learning all the ins and outs with the best gear you find (I did so prior to the paragon and MP additions).

What the AH truly changed was people seeing the best gear others were getting (and selling on AH). Thus their "good pieces" were actually crap. Which is like a hit on ones ego. Its upsetting or depressing.

In D2 you normally didn't have an easy time seeing top gear, or other people's gear. So what you found was usually good. And you didn't feel depressed about it in the end.

While Mechanically the AH did no changes, it really changed the psychological and gamer psyche standpoint to make one think they have to get the best gear to clear the inferno mode.

And for anyone who plays wow, you can think of gold in more of a Valor Points idea they put together. Except player run, and not NPC vendor. You play long enough and sell enough items you can afford the awesomest piece you wanted.

 

[diesbudt]

I remember trading chipped gems for items in D2. People with better gear used SoJs as currency. The only real difference between that and the (gold) AH is that the AH is more accessible and easier to use than having to go to a third party site.

And easier to browse the differences of items people got.

 

[Grooveriding]

The game was a failure and I think we're going to see that failure fully realized in contrasting the vanilla Diablo 3 sales against the sales of the expansion. My money is on half the number of sales.

So those who enjoy the game will feel validated because that is still 6 million or so copies and those who say it is a failure will too feel validated because the same millions chose not to buy the expansion because the base game was so atrocious. Then the cycle will continue.

Frankly, the game is a complete joke, and what makes it so sad is that the bare-bones and crappy game systems are letting the few exemplary things about Diablo 3 go to complete waste; the game engine and sound. The music in D3 is utter crap, but the sound is really something and the game's engine is very well done. Unfortunately the game feels like WoW itemization with RNG applied, strike one. There also is nothing in the way of actual RPG character development, with a skill system that is like a FPS loadout, skill=gun and rune=attachment - swap at will, strike 2. Then the RMAH and Activision/Blizzard's unavoidable commitment to make that system work to continue to reap the micro-transaction revenue and how that impacts the game negatively, strike 3. You're out. ()

 

[Anteaus]

The interesting part is that in spite of the apparent design weaknesses the game sees substantial daily traffic at around 1 million. Even if we subtract 20-30 percent to account for gold farmers and trafic dips the numbers are still statistically significant for a game of its type. While the game might be viewed by some players as a design failure, based on sales and day to day interest it is a financially success and ultimately that is what dictates design changes.

This is much the same about WoW. Critics like to leverage numbers by saying that by dropping to 7-8 million players from 12 million somehow signifies the death of the game without realizing that even at 2-3 million per month the game is substantially profitable. Maybe the checks wouldn't be as large, but the profits from one month of wow subs can still eclipse the entire annual operating budget of many entire game development firms.

I should remark that I'm not much of a D3 player so take it for what it is. I've played through it but I never caught the bug. I think the expansion will sell well for the same reason WoW expansions still sell well...because even the most disgruntled ex player can't resist experiencing the apparant "downfall" to the tune of 10s to 100s of hours of gameplay before they complain about how "bad" things have gotten.

I'm trying not to generalize because there are many gamers, some of which are on these boards, that will stick to their convictions and not buy it. Even so and in spite of it, I predict it will sell at least 1 million units and drive D3 forward to the shagrin of those who would prefer to see Blizzard feel the burn in order to compel change.

 

[diesbudt]

The interesting part is that in spite of the apparent design weaknesses the game sees substantial daily traffic at around 1 million. Even if we subtract 20-30 percent to account for gold farmers and trafic dips the numbers are still statistically significant for a game of its type. While the game might be viewed by some players as a design failure, based on sales and day to day interest it is a financially success and ultimately that is what dictates design changes.

This is much the same about WoW. Critics like to leverage numbers by saying that by dropping to 7-8 million players from 12 million somehow signifies the death of the game without realizing that even at 2-3 million per month the game is substantially profitable. Maybe the checks wouldn't be as large, but the profits from one month of wow subs can still eclipse the entire annual operating budget of many entire game development firms.

I should remark that I'm not much of a D3 player so take it for what it is. I've played through it but I never caught the bug. I think the expansion will sell well for the same reason WoW expansions still sell well...because even the most disgruntled ex player can't resist experiencing the apparant "downfall" to the tune of 10s to 100s of hours of gameplay before they complain about how "bad" things have gotten.

I'm trying not to generalize because there are many gamers, some of which are on these boards, that will stick to their convictions and not buy it. Even so and in spite of it, I predict it will sell at least 1 million units and drive D3 forward to the shagrin of those who would prefer to see Blizzard feel the burn in order to compel change.

It is only viewed a design failure if it didn't have the things the people who said it wanted. For those that enjoy it, it is a design success. It is simple as that. And as I have stated before D3 is a lot like D2. Plenty like D2. (With the main changes being the AH [blizzard streamlining sales of items that 3rd party sites used to use], and the always online thing.)

I bet in a vacuum, if D2 had its graphics up to D3 level. And both were released at once, You would see close to a 50/50 split or even in favor of D3 because of the streamlining blizzard put in on item transactions. However outside said vacuum (which is reality) D3 did not live up to the expectations of many D2 players. On top of that, the diablo game series story is bland at best if you don't supplement it with wikis and the books. Back when D2 was released that story level was acceptable in games. Today, not as much. Which is a weakness of D3. The story could have been much better and more "up to date". But it wasn't.

 

[Tweak155]

Untrue actually.

You can clear inferno with effort and learning all the ins and outs with the best gear you find (I did so prior to the paragon and MP additions).

What the AH truly changed was people seeing the best gear others were getting (and selling on AH). Thus their "good pieces" were actually crap. Which is like a hit on ones ego. Its upsetting or depressing.

In D2 you normally didn't have an easy time seeing top gear, or other people's gear. So what you found was usually good. And you didn't feel depressed about it in the end.

While Mechanically the AH did no changes, it really changed the psychological and gamer psyche standpoint to make one think they have to get the best gear to clear the inferno mode.

And for anyone who plays wow, you can think of gold in more of a Valor Points idea they put together. Except player run, and not NPC vendor. You play long enough and sell enough items you can afford the awesomest piece you wanted.

You keep saying this but I don't think this is the main cause of feeling the gear is crap. The gear is crap because... its crap. Finding bows with only +int and +str isn't something I remember at all from D1. I don't care if I found a bow with +150dex and the AH has +190 dex, at least I found a bow that suits my class.

The gear is crap because you find stats that are ultimately interpreted as useless.

 

[smackababy]

You keep saying this but I don't think this is the main cause of feeling the gear is crap. The gear is crap because... its crap. Finding bows with only +int and +str isn't something I remember at all from D1. I don't care if I found a bow with +150dex and the AH has +190 dex, at least I found a bow that suits my class.

The gear is crap because you find stats that are ultimately interpreted as useless.

It isn't just about additional stats though. When I found a 500 DPS Bow, I was stoked. It was a big upgrade for me. Then I looked on the AH, and noticed it was crap. There were 1200 DPS blue bows...

 

[diesbudt]

You keep saying this but I don't think this is the main cause of feeling the gear is crap. The gear is crap because... its crap. Finding bows with only +int and +str isn't something I remember at all from D1. I don't care if I found a bow with +150dex and the AH has +190 dex, at least I found a bow that suits my class.

The gear is crap because you find stats that are ultimately interpreted as useless.

Int gives resistances. Is not useless. It is not the best stat. But not useless.

Again if you had a bow say 1100 dps, 90 dex, 90 int, 100 vit, X, Y, Z

And you found a bow that was 1300 dps 120 dex, 140 int, 190 vit, X * 1.2, Y * 1.1, Z

And it was the best bow you have found in say 50 hours of farming. Now you cannot see the GREAT gear other players were lucky to find. You may be thinking "hey, cool find. Nice upgrade."

Now if you can see how subpar it is from the 1300 dps 300 dex, 100 vit, X, Z, A then you will be thinking "Well... damn this sucks. look at that weapon". It is how people are.

Japanese isolationism period. They believed the samurai and bows and arrows and weapons at the time were the best around. And quite proud of them. Then they allow other countries to finally come in... and they bring muskets, guns, cannons. How do you think they felt about their "amazing" weapons then? It is a normal human reaction. When comparing X to Y. It is "yay this is better/the best". But when comparing X to the whole alphabet squared. One tends to think more on the "oh... its just that. Its crap."

 

[diesbudt]

It isn't just about additional stats though. When I found a 500 DPS Bow, I was stoked. It was a big upgrade for me. Then I looked on the AH, and noticed it was crap. There were 1200 DPS blue bows...

Friend bought me a lot of "cheap" items off the AH to start my CM/WW wiz. I thought I was pimpin in my gear (55-60mil for the set).

Then I look on ah later to compare... shit my gear is average at best!

 

[smackababy]

Friend bought me a lot of "cheap" items off the AH to start my CM/WW wiz. I thought I was pimpin in my gear (55-60mil for the set).

Then I look on ah later to compare... shit my gear is average at best!

My example was around release. Now, my characters are at least 200k dps without buffs and I still feel they are average. My barb is at 280k and I know that is average (despite being well above average).

 

[thespyder]

What the AH truly changed was people seeing the best gear others were getting (and selling on AH). Thus their "good pieces" were actually crap. Which is like a hit on ones ego. Its upsetting or depressing.

Actually, what the AH brings to the table isn't that players are seeing others with better gear and needing an ego boost. They are seeing mediocre gear that they found during their normal farming that they thought was good gear, but now they are seeing the actual "Good Gear" that others have farmed. The AH means that they don't need to farm as much to get better gear (which would fall during the normal course of things). They can buy it.

And since the normal difficulty can no longer be predicated on a percentage chance that 'Better gear' will fall, a new paradigm needs to be created. Now it is based on that percentage that something better will fall PLUS an adjustment for the percentage of the population that uses the AH. So if on a level by level basis, the difficulty gets moved by 50 points (to pick a number at random), now the difficulty has to be moved by 65 points.

It isn't enough to make the game unplayable by those that don't use the AH, but it does effect game play of both populations.

 

[Puppies04]

I wish I could get a refund for Diablo 3.

they can keep their money I want my time back. So disapoint.

 

[Tweak155]

Int gives resistances. Is not useless. It is not the best stat. But not useless.

Again if you had a bow say 1100 dps, 90 dex, 90 int, 100 vit, X, Y, Z

And you found a bow that was 1300 dps 120 dex, 140 int, 190 vit, X * 1.2, Y * 1.1, Z

And it was the best bow you have found in say 50 hours of farming. Now you cannot see the GREAT gear other players were lucky to find. You may be thinking "hey, cool find. Nice upgrade."

Now if you can see how subpar it is from the 1300 dps 300 dex, 100 vit, X, Z, A then you will be thinking "Well... damn this sucks. look at that weapon". It is how people are.

Japanese isolationism period. They believed the samurai and bows and arrows and weapons at the time were the best around. And quite proud of them. Then they allow other countries to finally come in... and they bring muskets, guns, cannons. How do you think they felt about their "amazing" weapons then? It is a normal human reaction. When comparing X to Y. It is "yay this is better/the best". But when comparing X to the whole alphabet squared. One tends to think more on the "oh... its just that. Its crap."

I said ultimately interpreted as useless, not straight up useless. But anyway, 50hrs to find one upgrade is ridiculous. I would hope within that period I found upgrades for my other slots. 50hrs for one specific item isn't terrible as long as on that same scale, I'm taking 50hrs for my other slots, averaging at least an upgrade every ~3-5hrs (whatever 50 divided by total slots is, plus or minus an hour or two).

Playing with 1 other person who would give me upgrades for my character and my drops for their character, I probably averaged near that 3-5hrs, either one for me or one for them. But sometimes that would be 2 for them in a row because their gear was subpar.

It is really just a bad system the way it is now. Defending it wont improve it. When you have 1-2 guys defending against everyone else, I tend to blame the system, not everyone else.

The loot system and not having true free-roaming are my only two complaints with the game. I definitely will be getting the expansion, just wont play much past defeating the game on all the difficulties unless they change the system.

 

[lupi]

I don't remember gear hunted as being anywhere as near necessary in two. Compound that with them picking the crappiest loot system when three launched, and you have blah.