Diablo 3 Sucks

[railven]

I love people who don't know how to read. How many times have I said I like Diablo 3. I just don't sleep with it at night instead of my wife like you guys do.

<removed tasteless and you'd probably get mad even if it was just ajoke>

No harm, keeping it cool bro!

I get that is the way YOU play. Not everyone does. And the problem that people have is there is no investment. You are basically a jack of all trades in Diablo 3 (within class). And you don't have to grow up and make choices that might have consequences. Everything is spoon fed to you such that no decision that you make in the game means anything at all. Diablo 3 is creamed corn.

There is investment, it just isn't the kind of investment you wish to have. I invested time with the different skills/runes to find a combination that suited my play style. I also had to change my play style (from zering through Normal to 'fly like a butterfly sting like a bee' in Hell, waiting to see what changes I have to do to make it work for Inferno.) It seems you are mostly caught up on the lack of points to make your level 60 (without gear) toon feel different than my level 60 (without gear toon) or the talent trees to pick and choose if you'd rather buff Fireball or Fireblast.

You haven't really changed your position, and that is fine and dandy. I just posted my response to your "there is no strategy except kite and run away." It seems that is how you are playing the game.

It's all good As you said, at the end of the night its your wife you're trying to cuddle with - not Diablo 3.

 

[thespyder]

Well if you prefer I sleep with your wife instead of Diablo 3, that can be arranged [I'm teasing.]

To Quote the Great Rodney Dangerfield. "Take My Wife. Please!"

There is investment, it just isn't the kind of investment you wish to have. I invested time with the different skills/runes to find a combination that suited my play style. I also had to change my play style (from zering through Normal to 'fly like a butterfly sting like a bee' in Hell, waiting to see what changes I have to do to make it work for Inferno.) It seems you are mostly caught up on the lack of points to make your level 60 (without gear) toon feel different than my level 60 (without gear toon) or the talent trees to pick and choose if you'd rather buff Fireball or Fireblast.

You haven't really changed your position, and that is fine and dandy. I just posted my response to your "there is no strategy except kite and run away." It seems that is how you are playing the game.

It's all good As you said, at the end of the night its your wife you're trying to cuddle with - not Diablo 3.

It's all good. Agreed.

In Diablo 1, you had no skill tree at all. Your abilities were based on what books you could find in the dungeon. And there was very little depth to the characters other than fighters bashed things and wizards flamed them.

In Diablo 2, it was different. they attempted to put some definition, not only in classes, but within those classes. You had to select skills to invest in and that lead to (as for example) a necromancer that had a pack of skeletons surrounding him at all times, while another necromancer had a circle of ghosts circling him while he shot a spear of bone through mobs. Each could respect the other in that they could do something that the other couldn't, even within necromancy.

In Diablo 3, they tried to do a compromise (which happens in a lot of games these days) and give every player every ability. I get why they did it. You can't make a 'Bad Build' in the game. It's different. And it takes things away from the direction that I might choose.

but it's all good. People like it, and I respect that. Not everyone likes it but that is fine too. it will be interesting to see the evolution of the game over the next 10 years (or until Diablo 4 comes out).

 

[PowerYoga]

um, in diablo2 you had a few builds that actually worked. Hammerdin, ww barb, etc. The rest were shit builds that nobody used unless you were just playing single player in normal mode. You actually have more versatility in D3, and they removed an artificial timesink with no real purpose: needing to lvl a whole new character to use other builds. Even in inferno you could switch up builds for survival... cooldown popping barbs excluded. Also everyone pretty much distributed stats in the same way unless you don't feel like surviving.

 

[railven]

To Quote the Great Rodney Dangerfield. "Take My Wife. Please!"

Haha, glad you got a good sense of humor Kudos!

It's all good. Agreed.

In Diablo 1, you had no skill tree at all. Your abilities were based on what books you could find in the dungeon. And there was very little depth to the characters other than fighters bashed things and wizards flamed them.

In Diablo 2, it was different. they attempted to put some definition, not only in classes, but within those classes. You had to select skills to invest in and that lead to (as for example) a necromancer that had a pack of skeletons surrounding him at all times, while another necromancer had a circle of ghosts circling him while he shot a spear of bone through mobs. Each could respect the other in that they could do something that the other couldn't, even within necromancy.

I'm attempting to play through Diablo 2 (on my free time away from Diablo 3 Crack) and am enjoying it just as much as Diablo 3 (I guess I really missed the hack and slash genre.) I haven't gotten far enough to really customize anything, but I ask from your descriptor - does the circle of skeleton do different things than the circle of ghosts or is just cosmetic?

In Diablo 3, they tried to do a compromise (which happens in a lot of games these days) and give every player every ability. I get why they did it. You can't make a 'Bad Build' in the game. It's different. And it takes things away from the direction that I might choose.

but it's all good. People like it, and I respect that. Not everyone likes it but that is fine too. it will be interesting to see the evolution of the game over the next 10 years (or until Diablo 4 comes out).

I dunno, not trying to be elitist, but I ran into a monk who's build baffled me. He'd also die a lot, which made me wonder why he was using the combination of skills/rune. I tried to be the "kill you before you kill me" player going into Nightmare (since I was Zerging Normal) and after realizing I didn't have the gold to obtain the items to sustain it nor the time to farm the things, I looked at what I had and started to mess around.

This game will boil down "to each their own." Perhaps my lack of indepth knowledge of D2 is my achille's heel to seeing your arguments eye to eye, but I'm just stating my disagreement with some of the things you've said of D3 (since I actually have valid knowledge to say something coherent haha).

 

[thespyder]

I'm attempting to play through Diablo 2 (on my free time away from Diablo 3 Crack) and am enjoying it just as much as Diablo 3 (I guess I really missed the hack and slash genre.) I haven't gotten far enough to really customize anything, but I ask from your descriptor - does the circle of skeleton do different things than the circle of ghosts or is just cosmetic?

Absotively. Both games are a form of Crack. I played all three till my brain bled. it is great fun just hacking and slashing and killing stuff for loot. My Ex way back when Diablo 1 came out, sent a letter to PC gamer about how much she loved it and that all women would probably love the 'Shopping' and the 'Accessorizing' that goes on in the game. they published it.

As for the 'Circle of skeletons, I meant putting skills into Summon Skeleton. The more points you put in, the more enemies you can make into skeletons, and the more powerful they are. if you focus on it, you eventually end up with a hoard of skels and have to do very little actual combat yourself. merely cast curses and keep on summoning skells as they die.

The circle of ghosts is nothing more than a ring around your toon that absorbs damage.

I dunno, not trying to be elitist, but I ran into a monk who's build baffled me. He'd also die a lot, which made me wonder why he was using the combination of skills/rune. I tried to be the "kill you before you kill me" player going into Nightmare (since I was Zerging Normal) and after realizing I didn't have the gold to obtain the items to sustain it nor the time to farm the things, I looked at what I had and started to mess around.

Dono. Haven't played Monk yet.

This game will boil down "to each their own." Perhaps my lack of indepth knowledge of D2 is my achille's heel to seeing your arguments eye to eye, but I'm just stating my disagreement with some of the things you've said of D3 (since I actually have valid knowledge to say something coherent haha).

You have it there in 'To each their own". I don't hate the game, clearly. And equally as clearly it sells. I just disagree with some of the things (and apparent focuses) that they spent time and money on. maybe they will pay off. And maybe it just speaks to a different crowd. Time will tell.

 

[darkewaffle]

This coming from someone who thought that both DA2 and Dungeon Siege 3 were good games. Nuff said.

What a valid point, it is positively brimming with relevance.

In Diablo 3, you aren't underpowered if you use the wrong skills. You are Underpowered if you use any of the skills. And I am not really sure how you can say that there is any depth or strategy to a game. The "Whole" strategy to Diablo 3 is Kite opponents, run away. Kite opponents, run away. If you are a tank, go high vitality and resistances. If you are a caster, go high damage and run like hell. Really in depth strategy there. Also, your choice of abilities is limited to 6, none of which combine or overlap to any degree what so ever. In Diablo 2 you could select from any of your abilities at a moment's notice. Not this 'Click the skills window. Select the Skills 'Group' that you want. Select the Skill that you want. select the 'Rune' that you want to use. Then "Ok", then "Ok" then cool down time. Then cast/use the ability". and there was a fair amount of overlap and cohesion to them such that you could make sub-classes within the classes. Not so in Diablo 3.

In Diablo 2, you are wildly underpowered if you use anything other than a select few strong AoE skills. And I am not really sure how you can say that there is any depth or strategy to a game. The "Whole" strategy to Diablo 2 is spam AoE skills. Click opponents, blow them away. If you are a tank, go high vitality and resistances. If you are a caster, go high damage, run in circles, and AoE enemies. Really in depth strategy there. Also, your choice of abilities is limited to 2 at any one time. In Diablo 2 you could select from any of your abilities at a moment's notice, but only one or two of them would ever be powerful enough to use because you had to invest completely into that skill and it's (often useless) synergies for it to even begin to be worth using. Just because D2 spoonfed you synergy bonuses to showcase ridiculously obvious combos doesn't mean it's some sort of unique feature. In Diablo 3, combos are still being built and discovered and experimented with because they aren't spelled out explicitly.

Examples that come to mind as a Barbarian are Weapon Throw/Sprint mixed with Battle Rage which allows more persistent use of fury-expensive abilities, the various tank 'rotations' that are available, using some crit increasing abilities/glyphs (overpower or revenge) in coord with abilities that benefit from crit (HotA > Birthright, Weapon Throw > Dread Bomb), mixing Inspiring Presence with War Cry's regen bonus when sustain is paramount. The possibilities are there and there's a metric ton of them.

Additionally, as has been stated, in diablo 2, you had to plan out your character. You didn't all of the sudden get all of the abilities. You could make mistakes, but at least you were invested in YOUR character, not the generic toon you get in Diablo 3.

As has been echoed by more than just myself, building in D2 was little more an exercise in following instructions to build characters that used the good skills and not the bad ones. If you wish to have the freedom to build a bad character, you are more than welcome to in D3 by choosing skills that do not complement one another. Nobody's taken away your ability to build a Barbarian that only has skills that consume Fury and none that generate it; the only difference is when you realize it doesn't work you don't have to re-roll an entirely new character.

The items are SIGNIFICANTLY less complex and the drops are eminently less rewarding.

Less complex how? Random properties in D2 were almost the same except more segmented. In D3, a sword can randomly have, say, 1-100 str on it when it's determined it can have the "str modifier" to it. In D2, it simply turned 1-5 str, 6-10 str, 11-15 str, 16-20 str and so on and so forth into different properties and gave them all meaningless names like lion/bear/titan. It's still just a stat.

Itemization actually requires more give and take now than in D2 as well because of Vitality; you can no longer simply allocate all your stat points to vit and blindly use the items with the highest damage output on them. Now you have to decide, is losing X health worth Y DPS? Is getting more crit worth a DPS loss because you'll in turn earn more arcane power, making up for the difference?

Not to mention entirely new stats in the game such as crit hits (deadly strike was physical damage only), crit damage, life on hit, block value, physical/arcane resist, and a much wider array of class specific skill augmentations.

Even discounting the AH, drops are the same as they've ever been. You find a lot of items you can't use and every now and then you do get an upgrade and the longer you play [at 60] the more time there is in between those upgrades. That's the name of the game with random loot.

However when you do take the AH into account, loot is now more rewarding than ever because it is so much easier for you to find a buyer without having to deal with small-time trade games or trade forums and their proprietary currencies. Taking a nice item for the wrong class and trading it in D2 was a chore; but selling them in D3 is a breeze and means you're able to find the items you want far more easily.

There is no variability in your class what so ever.
And there is almost no variability between classes (each class has some variant on slow down or trap or hinder opponent. Each class has some variant on multiple hit attacks against multiple opponents, etc...).

Kind of like how zons could slow with cold arrows, sorcs could slow with cold spells, pally could slow with holy freeze, necro could slow with decrepify, druids can slow with arctic blast, and assassins can slow with blades of ice? Barbs don't get a slow iirc, but they do have howl/stun/taunt.

AoE you've got Lightning Fury/Strafe for zon, pretty much anything/everything for sorc, hammers for pally, corpse explosion/summons for necro, druid gets hurricane, assassin gets lightning traps, and barbs get whirlwind.

Attempting to differentiate classes through such broad characteristics is just not going to happen in a game where one of the design goals is for every class to be capable in their own right. Making that sort of wide idea class specific is just going to further class disparity.

In Diablo 2, for a smaller game on the whole, the game play took longer. There was more reason to get to the next level or the next chapter. There was overall more reward for playing the game.

Reason like what? The game's been about loot since day one, either you want to go to the next act for the higher level loot or you don't, simple as that. Loot hunting as the ultimate totality a game isn't for everyone admittedly, but it definitely hasn't changed between D2 and D3.

 

[Judgement]

I doubt it, playing from an SSD. Also seen it playing multiplayer, with all of us trying to skip the cut-scene, so it's not just me. Perhaps 3 seconds is an exaggeration, but the point is there was always some time before you could skip the cut-scene, and after you choose to skip it it inexplicably waits another couple of seconds before doing so. I am talking about the boss introduction scenes.

Particularly annoying is diablo, where you have to deal with multiple cut-scenes each fight as the phases transition. WHY. Just give me the fight, I watch the cut scenes in normal nightmare and hell do you really think I want to see them every time on inferno also?

Believe me, you will need them in order for your skill cooldowns to refresh. Obviously it is annoying on easy difficulties or when farming, but when pushing more difficult content, those cut scenes in the Diablo fight can give you time to let your critical skills refresh.

 

[thespyder]

What a valid point, it is positively brimming with relevance.

It's relevance lies in speaking to the insights of the reviewer (i.e. your good self) and your tastes in 'Quality' gaming. Evaluate the review based on the reviewer.

Beyond that, you (and others) keep on saying that "EVERYONE" only uses specific builds in Diablo 2. this is patently not true. It is a generalization and an assumption used by people who don't want things like FACTS to clutter up their arguments. I have never EVER used a specific 'Build' that I didn't come up with on my own through nothing but trial and error and I have played single and multi player Diablo 2 for 12 years now. And I have encountered in my gaming travels any number of different flavors of all of the classes, certainly enough to make up more than "A few specific builds" and all of which were perfectly valid for game play.

Yet none of this is the point that is being discussed by me and ignored by you. It makes NO DIFFERENCE how many people use the variability in the Skill tree in Diablo 2. it's very existence alone makes it much more variable than Diablo 3.

Your argument might as well be "Most drivers only use the driver side door on their cars. therefore Cars only have one door." It's nonsense.

 

[Grooveriding]

Gotta admit, Blizzard really does a good job at the pulpit inspiring faith in their customers.

Diablo 3 is a turd of a game, it's basically a game so simple you can slap it on a console and it will need minimal changes in control schemes etc. That is actually exactly what is going to happen to this game as well.

They made a simplified and dumbed down version of Diablo geared around micro transactions and getting you to spend real money so they can get a continued revenue stream. All to the tune of $1 a transaction and a 15% cut of the sale price for every cash-out to Paypal. It's an in-game cash shop with a mild attempt at a game built around it.

And that is why they simplified and dumbed it down.

You knew coming into this thread that there would be people who can see this game (at least they can) for the turd it is and the stark departure from the traditional Blizzard quality. No need to get bent about it. There is a huge stickied thread to pay homage to this steaming pile up at the top of this sub-forum

Just sayin. Why so troubled that not everyone likes the game ? I don't know if the current state of their official forums is still the same, but when I was still looking at them a few weeks back, the forum was basically nothing but complaints and ridicule.

I've played most of their games at launch and spent time on their forums; WoW, TBC, SC2 and never have I seen such a dominant negative reaction. It just made sense to me, because it's the first time I've felt one of their games is just plain bad.

Suck it up, boys. Blizzard has gone full-on Activision. This game was about money, not 'We'll release it when it's great and it's done.'

Huuuuge marketing was put behind this game and they raped the name of Diablo 2/LOD for everything they could. Fuck this turd of a game lol.

 

[Tweak155]

It's relevance lies in speaking to the insights of the reviewer (i.e. your good self) and your tastes in 'Quality' gaming. Evaluate the review based on the reviewer.

Beyond that, you (and others) keep on saying that "EVERYONE" only uses specific builds in Diablo 2. this is patently not true. It is a generalization and an assumption used by people who don't want things like FACTS to clutter up their arguments. I have never EVER used a specific 'Build' that I didn't come up with on my own through nothing but trial and error and I have played single and multi player Diablo 2 for 12 years now. And I have encountered in my gaming travels any number of different flavors of all of the classes, certainly enough to make up more than "A few specific builds" and all of which were perfectly valid for game play.

Yet none of this is the point that is being discussed by me and ignored by you. It makes NO DIFFERENCE how many people use the variability in the Skill tree in Diablo 2. it's very existence alone makes it much more variable than Diablo 3.

Your argument might as well be "Most drivers only use the driver side door on their cars. therefore Cars only have one door." It's nonsense.

Great job ignoring his detailed points. But further your example by stating "Most drivers only use the driver side door, because the others wont open or malfunction." In Diablo 3, most of your "doors work". This is more the gist of what he is saying, and you refuse to acknowledge.

 

[thespyder]

Great job ignoring his detailed points. But further your example by stating "Most drivers only use the driver side door, because the others wont open or malfunction." In Diablo 3, most of your "doors work". This is more the gist of what he is saying, and you refuse to acknowledge.

As for the doors working? I assume that this is in reference to non-power builds in Diablo 2. Everyone on that side of the argument says that they don't work. I have never used a power build and never had a problem playing the game or defeating the Bad guys. and I have played since the Beta and pretty much consistently for the last 12 years. So it would seem to me that "all of the doors work in Diablo 2." And I have seen no evidence to the contrary. If you would like to pony up some actual proof of the contrary other than anecdotal "Everyone knows", please do.

As for the rest, Put it simply, the difference between Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 is the difference between strategy and tactics. I, and many other fans of Diablo 2 like and expected Diablo 3 to be more Strategy and less tactics. That isn't what we got.

 

[darkewaffle]

It's relevance lies in speaking to the insights of the reviewer (i.e. your good self) and your tastes in 'Quality' gaming. Evaluate the review based on the reviewer.

Beyond that, you (and others) keep on saying that "EVERYONE" only uses specific builds in Diablo 2. this is patently not true. It is a generalization and an assumption used by people who don't want things like FACTS to clutter up their arguments. I have never EVER used a specific 'Build' that I didn't come up with on my own through nothing but trial and error and I have played single and multi player Diablo 2 for 12 years now. And I have encountered in my gaming travels any number of different flavors of all of the classes, certainly enough to make up more than "A few specific builds" and all of which were perfectly valid for game play.

Yet none of this is the point that is being discussed by me and ignored by you. It makes NO DIFFERENCE how many people use the variability in the Skill tree in Diablo 2. it's very existence alone makes it much more variable than Diablo 3.

Your argument might as well be "Most drivers only use the driver side door on their cars. therefore Cars only have one door." It's nonsense.

Once again, when you use the word facts, please put it in quotes. You have been wrong just about every step of the way with regards to Diablo 2, Diablo 3, their skills, how they're played online, their gameplay and how they compare.

Doing the math: Diablo 3 with 3.4 trillion builds in total

Clearly what D3 needs is even more variety.

Number of Character Builds: D2 versus D3 (Calculated)

Both Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 have an ludicrously large number of possible builds. If we don't count stats, Diablo 3 seems to have a large advantage. If we do count stats, Diablo 2 seems to have a small advantage. Overall, though, given the magnitude of the possible builds in both games, the number of builds is virtually identical.(Personal Spin: Possible builds does not equal workable builds. All these numbers show is how many builds a randomly clicking person could make. Diablo 2, for instance, does has a much smaller subset of workable builds. My gut instinct tells me that there will be more viable builds in Diablo 3 given skill cool-downs. Overall I think D3 will be a fairly diverse game)

Some of that post's info is quite dated, such as him calculating each character being able to wield 7 skills at once instead of 6 and overestimating how many passives a character would end up with, but the point still stands that both games leave an absurd amount of room for customizing how you play, despite certain templates surely flourishing in both scenarios.

 

[Daverino]

On the one hand, I loathe the RMAH and how badly it screws anyone that wants to play end-game content without spending real money.

However, as far as the skill thing goes, I think D3 is a better system for one specific reason: I can reallocate my skills depending on who I am playing with in MP. If I want to play my wizard solo, fine. I'll spec up defensively for kiting with low AP costs so I can spam blizzard over my shoulder all day long. I want to play MP with 2 monks and a barb, though? I can hang in the back and up my DPS to bring out some great nukes.

In D2, I would need to grind up two level 60 characters to do this. Now I need only one.

 

[thespyder]

Once again, when you use the word facts, please put it in quotes. You have been wrong just about every step of the way with regards to Diablo 2, Diablo 3, their skills, how they're played online, their gameplay and how they compare.

Doing the math: Diablo 3 with 3.4 trillion builds in total

Clearly what D3 needs is even more variety.

Number of Character Builds: D2 versus D3 (Calculated)



Some of that post's info is quite dated, such as him calculating each character being able to wield 7 skills at once instead of 6 and overestimating how many passives a character would end up with, but the point still stands that both games leave an absurd amount of room for customizing how you play, despite certain templates surely flourishing in both scenarios.

And again this points to you missing the point entirely. Or maybe we are merely both missing each other's points.

Mine is simple. Diablo 2 is strategy. You build over time and it leads to a strategic experience (characters develop along specific lines over the life leading to a unique character (or at least non generic and standard)). Diablo 3 is tactics. Instances change. You can mold your character at any given time to react to the moment. Now see the difference?

Simple. If you like tactics, you are going to like Diablo 3 more. If you like more long term strategy, Diablo 2 is more your game. My personal view is that Strategy requires significantly more depth and cognitive ability, but that may be subjective.

All of the rest of it is crap. And you can spout stats from people till you are blue in the face. I can point you to a link (but I won't) where a guy proves with stultifying precision how the earth is flat and the center of the universe. it doesn't mean that I am going to disregard the evidence of my own eyes.

Also, we disagree on definition of the term build. Mine is what makes your character fundamentally different from every other character of the same class and level (when you take off all of their gear). In Diablo 3 - Strategically, NOTHING. Tactically, apparently quite a bit. In Diablo 2 - Strategically quite a bit. Tactically - not nothing, but not as much as Diablo 3.

 

[darkewaffle]

As for the doors working? I assume that this is in reference to non-power builds in Diablo 2. Everyone on that side of the argument says that they don't work. I have never used a power build and never had a problem playing the game or defeating the Bad guys. and I have played since the Beta and pretty much consistently for the last 12 years. So it would seem to me that "all of the doors work in Diablo 2." And I have seen no evidence to the contrary. If you would like to pony up some actual proof of the contrary other than anecdotal "Everyone knows", please do.

As for the rest, Put it simply, the difference between Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 is the difference between strategy and tactics. I, and many other fans of Diablo 2 like and expected Diablo 3 to be more Strategy and less tactics. That isn't what we got.

The difference between 'power' builds and 'normal' was a matter of efficiency. You could beat Diablo 2 with almost any build because that game was really easy and simple, and the skills were not bad on an absolute metric but a relative one.

Efficiency is the key idea here because most people view D2 builds in the light of "How do they apply to online battle.net play?" because that is the majority usage case; I'm part of that group and I would wager most people here were as well. Offline, normal/NM difficulty is a niche at best. You have your own experiences, but they are not typical ones.

Efficiency was paramount because D2 battle.net was all about doing as many runs as easily as possible because the goal in the game was (is) to get good loot, and you get more good loot the more enemies you can kill. As such, gameplay gravitated around strong, spammy AoE skills. Most paladins were Hammerdins. Most amazons were Strafers or Javazons. Most sorcs were Orb sorcs. Most druids were wind druids. Most assassins were trappers.

You don't have to play the game that way, but you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't; thus creating the build illusion. You can build however you want, but to be good at the applications most people care(d) most about, there are only a handful of clearly best choices.

Myself, I always liked Paladins. I thought Zeal was a cool skill and the Auras were awesomely powerful. But that doesn't change the fact that, pretty much no matter what, I couldn't hold a candle to a Hammerdin in terms of kill speed and kill number, which is what I considered (and what most players considered) to be most important.

 

[thespyder]

Again you are making assumptions and marginalizing game play styles to make your point. And using terms like "Most Players" or trying to marginalize my experiences as "non standard" is only dodging the point.

The fact remains (yet again) it makes no difference how many people use (or that you believe use) a given tactic, more exist than you are giving credit for.

I can say that everyone in the US is rich and no one is really poor. And if they are poor, they don't count towards my assessments because they aren't very important. I would be wrong and a jerk for saying that, but it is exactly what you are saying.

See my comments above about the true difference between Diablo 2 and 3 (strategy vs tactics) and you might understand my perspective better.

 

[Imp]

The difference between 'power' builds and 'normal' was a matter of efficiency. You could beat Diablo 2 with almost any build because that game was really easy and simple, and the skills were not bad on an absolute metric but a relative one.

Efficiency is the key idea here because most people view D2 builds in the light of "How do they apply to online battle.net play?" because that is the majority usage case; I'm part of that group and I would wager most people here were as well. Offline, normal/NM difficulty is a niche at best. You have your own experiences, but they are not typical ones.

Efficiency was paramount because D2 battle.net was all about doing as many runs as easily as possible because the goal in the game was (is) to get good loot, and you get more good loot the more enemies you can kill. As such, gameplay gravitated around strong, spammy AoE skills. Most paladins were Hammerdins. Most amazons were Strafers or Javazons. Most sorcs were Orb sorcs. Most druids were wind druids. Most assassins were trappers.

"Efficiency" is a good word, but I would describe it using the terms "usefulness". If everyone else with power builds are doing way more dps, killing everything in 5 seconds when it takes you 30 with your craptastic "unique" build, then what's the point? Going into a game and being a fifth wheel was a bigger factor than how fast you could farm loot.

And people should just give it up... thespyder thinks anyone who defends Diablo 3 is a blizzard fanboy and a simpleton. Too lazy to find his post.

 

[Wardawg1001]

the diablo 3 skill tree is less complex than the diablo 2 skill tree... which had a TON of useless skills and pre-requisites. this is how it went in diablo 2 - 20 skill points in NUKE#1, 20 skill points in NUKE#2, 20 skill points in NUKE#3, 20 skill points in NUKE#4, and pre-reqs and random 1-point talents for utility. pump into enough vitality to not get one-shot, and the rest into your main stat. done.

in diablo 3, all that customization is done through items. all the skills scale off gear, of which you can choose to equip in whichever fashion you want. want a tanky sorc? buy +armor gear, spec into tanky skills, wear a shield, and stack life-on-hit. want to go glass cannon, forego all stats except int and just blow through enemies before they get to you.

the point of such a small skill tree that you can constantly re-spec is this: you can only respec if you arent farming. if you're farming and re-spec, your MF buff gets wiped. want to farm efficiently? pick a spec that is good for farming in whatever act you like to farm. if you feel underpowered, its because you picked the wrong spec that does not work with the gear that you currently own.

I cannot for the life of my understand why a guy who hasn't even completed Nightmare mode and hasn't even unlocked all of the abilities or seen the high level items and builds that could be viable, thinks they are qualified to comment on the potential for customization in this game. Could you please, for the love of GOD, stick to just talking about things actually know.

People, PLEASE stop feeding this troll. He has no clue what he is talking about, and every one of his posts if full of lies and misconception based on his very limited experience with this game.

Feel free to dislike the game, hell feel free to dislike it for reasons that don't even exist for all I care. But please refrain from balance and customization discussions, because you are simply talking out your ass, to put it bluntly.

 

[Doppel]

Gotta admit, Blizzard really does a good job at the pulpit inspiring faith in their customers.

Diablo 3 is a turd of a game, it's basically a game so simple you can slap it on a console and it will need minimal changes in control schemes etc. That is actually exactly what is going to happen to this game as well.

They made a simplified and dumbed down version of Diablo geared around micro transactions and getting you to spend real money so they can get a continued revenue stream. All to the tune of $1 a transaction and a 15% cut of the sale price for every cash-out to Paypal. It's an in-game cash shop with a mild attempt at a game built around it.

And that is why they simplified and dumbed it down.

You knew coming into this thread that there would be people who can see this game (at least they can) for the turd it is and the stark departure from the traditional Blizzard quality. No need to get bent about it. There is a huge stickied thread to pay homage to this steaming pile up at the top of this sub-forum

Just sayin. Why so troubled that not everyone likes the game ? I don't know if the current state of their official forums is still the same, but when I was still looking at them a few weeks back, the forum was basically nothing but complaints and ridicule.

I've played most of their games at launch and spent time on their forums; WoW, TBC, SC2 and never have I seen such a dominant negative reaction. It just made sense to me, because it's the first time I've felt one of their games is just plain bad.

Suck it up, boys. Blizzard has gone full-on Activision. This game was about money, not 'We'll release it when it's great and it's done.'

Huuuuge marketing was put behind this game and they raped the name of Diablo 2/LOD for everything they could. Fuck this turd of a game lol.

This is a reasoned critique. Unfortunately, a lot of people invest themselves emotionally into games, or really any product, and cannot accept criticism, so dismiss it as simply "hating".

Was this even a topic with Diablo 2? I doubt it. Sure, some people will hate just about freaking anything, but there has to be a lot more negativity for this than D2.

 

[shortylickens]

If you guys are shitting all over each other like this on Anandtech, I can only imagine whats going on in the Blizzard forums.

 

[Wardawg1001]

It's relevance lies in speaking to the insights of the reviewer (i.e. your good self) and your tastes in 'Quality' gaming. Evaluate the review based on the reviewer.

Beyond that, you (and others) keep on saying that "EVERYONE" only uses specific builds in Diablo 2. this is patently not true. It is a generalization and an assumption used by people who don't want things like FACTS to clutter up their arguments. I have never EVER used a specific 'Build' that I didn't come up with on my own through nothing but trial and error and I have played single and multi player Diablo 2 for 12 years now. And I have encountered in my gaming travels any number of different flavors of all of the classes, certainly enough to make up more than "A few specific builds" and all of which were perfectly valid for game play.

Yet none of this is the point that is being discussed by me and ignored by you. It makes NO DIFFERENCE how many people use the variability in the Skill tree in Diablo 2. it's very existence alone makes it much more variable than Diablo 3.

Your argument might as well be "Most drivers only use the driver side door on their cars. therefore Cars only have one door." It's nonsense.

This entire sentence (bolded) is nonsense, and the crux of why D3 was designed differently. Choices are not in themselves a good thing, and that applies to a lot more than just games. You think D3 was dumbed down to appeal to the masses. D3 developers feel like non-sensical confusion and complexity is useless.

The silliest thing is that you feel the removal of useless mechanics such as stat points and skill trees being removed actually removed customization from the game. The truth is that (given a few more balance patches) there will be infinitely more potential skill groups and item builds that will be viable than there ever was in D2. The fact that Legendary and Set Items and Runewords were so powerful that almost every build was completely dependent on them. D3's goal is to remove the silly idea of skill tree's, which BY NATURE created a static number of possible builds, MANY of which required the top of the top line items to be viable.

I know that D3 isn't there yet (largely because of the expense of high level items, due to their rarity), but after a few balance changes and when the market prices for items go down, there is SO MUCH MORE POTENTIAL there for D3 to have exponentially more viable builds than D2 ever had. You are just too blind to see it, because you can't get past the fact that you can't assign stat points, which were an AWFUL way of implementing customization.

 

[Wardawg1001]

If you guys are shitting all over each other like this on Anandtech, I can only imagine whats going on in the Blizzard forums.

For your own sanity, don't even think of going near the official D3 forums :/

 

[NeoV]

if this game didn't have all the connectivity issues it had in the first couple of weeks, would we even be having this discussion?

 

[Wardawg1001]

if this game didn't have all the connectivity issues it had in the first couple of weeks, would we even be having this discussion?

Probably. Its Metascore would be probably a lot closer to 8.5 than 4. It was so sad seeing review and review after review being posted with NO SUBSTANCE other than complaints about login issues. People are such crybabies.

EDIT: That isn't to say there aren't some problems with the game. A few gripes I have:

-Too few features in the AH (only 3 search filters, can't search on filters that are available only on certain Legendaries or Set items, can't cancel an auction after 5 minutes, 10 item limit, some filters simply not available such as DPS, can't see stats of items that you have sold or bought in the AH interface, and more)
-Weapon DPS mechanic is lame and there is far too much emphasis on it, weapons need more unique abilities to differentiate them beyond their DPS rating and how much DEX/INT/STR/VIT they have on them
-Difficulty jump from A1 to A2 Inferno is too high (Blizzard has already acknowledged this and will be adjusting it)
-Passive abilities could use a lot more variability, there are too many straight add damage or reduce damage abilities and they seem to be the most popular)
-Too many hidden mechanics (for instance many people still dont know that life % steal is nerfed by 80% in Inferno)
-Class and ability balance in general (I feel its done pretty well at this time, but theres definitely room for improvement)
-Normal mode is simply too easy
-Poor community features (no customer channels, too much spam in General and Trade channels, no clan/guild support, no custom games)
-No PvP (this will be coming in a future patch, though only Arena style combat has been announced so far)
-Magic Find gear is a pain in the ass - D2 had things like Gull, Tal Rashas, and Shako, all of which were viable for late game farming but were still useful for killing monsters. Gearing a character for high MF and still being able to farm anything worth farming (Inferno A3-4) is insanely expensive
-Gems are bland and there just isn't enough variety - 4 styles, each which can provide only 3 different benefits (helm, weapon, or other)

Just a few things I can think of off the top of my head.

The great thing is all of this can be fixed, and the game is already pretty damn fun without all this. The sheer amount of potential awesome in this game is amazing, very much looking forward to some patches and expansions.

 

[Wardawg1001]

Again you are making assumptions and marginalizing game play styles to make your point. And using terms like "Most Players" or trying to marginalize my experiences as "non standard" is only dodging the point.

The fact remains (yet again) it makes no difference how many people use (or that you believe use) a given tactic, more exist than you are giving credit for.

I can say that everyone in the US is rich and no one is really poor. And if they are poor, they don't count towards my assessments because they aren't very important. I would be wrong and a jerk for saying that, but it is exactly what you are saying.

See my comments above about the true difference between Diablo 2 and 3 (strategy vs tactics) and you might understand my perspective better.

Can you tell me what exactly is stopping you from making a build that maximizes what most would consider 'non-optimal' skills? Most Barbarians rely on skills like Ignore Pain, Frenzy, Wrath of the Berserker, and War Cry. What part of D3's design stops you from building and optimizing a set of skills that uses Overpower, Call of the Ancients, Ancient Spear, Rend, Bash, and Group Stomp? I mean, if you all you really want are options, and making the cookie-cutter min/maxed build is not what you are interested in, is there any reason you can't make something else?