Did chip espionage, IP theft give Samsung its 14nm manufacturing lead?

[ehume]

Here.

I'm reading it now.

 

[jdubs03]

Here.

I'm reading it now.

I read that last night, its an interesting piece and definitely puts into question how Samsung has leapfrogged above TSMC in rolling out their FinFET processes.

However, as mentioned at the end TSMC has not put out a lawsuit against Liang or Samsung so I think at least in terms of legalese there may not be much of a case, but the storyline is pretty shady.

 

[Idontcare]

Did chip espionage, IP theft give Samsung its 14nm manufacturing lead?

Yes.

What is being reported is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of information that has been common knowledge in industry circles here in Asia. It has just taken a while for TSMC to figure out how and where best to pursue it in the court system.

Regardless, and TSMC knows this well, the damage is already done. Nothing the courts can do will change the situation.

 

[senseamp]

Our college EE professor told us a story a from decades ago about how Korean companies got DRAM manufacturing dominance from the Japanese. He said hey would fly lonely Japanese DRAM company electrical engineers to Korea for the weekends, where they would work for them during the day and have crazy parties (orgies? he didn't go into the details) at night. Anyways, it was also only a matter of time. Wouldn't surprise me if TSMC got similarly had.
That said, it's good for consumer, at least in the near term, to have (even unfair) competition between fabs driving down chip costs. Especially if tech is so close that it's easy to port from one process to another.

 

[hawtdawg]

That roadmap is all sorts of BS. Firstly, Intel has had 22nm products on the market since Q2 2012. It also goes on to compare a roadmap of Intels 14nm products hitting the market, against BS roadmaps of the other 2 companies. I mean Samsung and TSMC have had 16/14nm out since last year? really? name one product made by samsung and TSMC that's shipping at 16 or 14nm.

 

[positivedoppler]

Way to sidetrack and bring Intel into this thread. This is why we can't have good things. Make a thread, count to 5, and somebody will butt in and append to the thread how awesome and better Intel is than everybody else.

 

[Abwx]

Story seems simple, a scientist and his crew of process engineers surely asked for a raise given TSMC s successfull and indeed overpriced processes, no doubt that the answer didnt met thoses people expectations so they headed to Samsung, now Morris Chang and Mark Liu can always try to do the work themslelves, given that they are surely paid order of magnitude higher amounts it s not too much asking to thoses bean counters, moreover given that TSMC seems to pay quite miserably their whole workforce, including the RD dpt.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Is it as simple as guilty vs not-guilty? From the article:

Yet Samsung’s leapfrog over its rival isn’t as simple as a simple guilty/not-guilty verdict. Of the several chip engineers we reached out to for insight on how trade secrets play out in the real world, all of them pointed out the same things — when you hire an engineer, you’re hiring them for what they know. If that engineer has an expertise in SOI, or FinFETs, or cutting-edge III-V materials, you’re obviously intending to tap that expertise. It’s easy to identify some types of IP theft, such as when an employee leaves with a trove of documents or confidential roadmaps. Situations like this are much thornier — TSMC, to date, hasn’t filed a lawsuit against Samsung or its former employee.

It may be tempting to pin Samsung’s rise to power on the actions of a single man, as CommonWealth magazine does, but I think this narrative is fundamentally inaccurate. Modern semiconductor manufacturing requires enormous capital input, teams of hundreds of engineers, and committing to a multi-year roadmap of iterative product improvement. No one person can singlehandedly drive this process for a sustained period of time. Whether Samsung’s 14nm lead turns into a sustained success or a momentary blip before TSMC retakes the pole position will depend not just on Liang, but on the entire ecosystem Samsung has built around its position and its ability to execute the contracts it takes now that its built the process node.

 

[oobydoobydoo]

Those non-compete agreements are ridiculous. They basically make you sign one, and it pretty much prevents you from being a viable asset to any company in the future, should you decide to leave that company.They are unconstitutional and should be banned in the US, and worldwide IMO. They also stifle competition. If TSMC doesn't want it's lead talent poached it should pay them better. Obviously this guy was so important TSMC is suggesting, and apparently believes he single-handedly advanced Samsung's process years ahead. Why weren't they paying him what he deserved?


It also appears the evidence is totally circumstantial! So they changed the shape of the PMOS gate, and it looks similar to TSMC's now, big deal! There are only a few shapes they could use anyway. Maybe he did give company secrets, maybe he didn't, the point is this investigation would have to turn up solid evidence that he actually divulged the secrets they say he did. Right now, they are just saying "it looks like ours now".

 

[Vesku]

The non-compete for the TSMC exec that went to Samsung actually sounded reasonable. If the description is accurate he could have gone to work for Samsung right away but he'd lose out on a multi-million dollar payout. Not as bad as many non-competes where there is a fixed exclusion period with penalties.

TSMC showed he was actually "teaching" at a Samsung building and not just at a Samsung sponsored university. Apparently enough to take away his final payout. What exactly he provided to Samsung will be another court case that will probably drag out for years.

As has been stated though, the damage is done. There is almost no way they will get a legal payout to make up for losing a competitive edge. It's unlikely to even make up for the initial effects of losing a billion+ USD in Apple wafer orders.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Not surprised. Companies like Samsung is build entirely on copy and copy better.

 

[hawtdawg]

Way to sidetrack and bring Intel into this thread. This is why we can't have good things. Make a thread, count to 5, and somebody will butt in and append to the thread how awesome and better Intel is than everybody else.

I was commenting on a roadmap from the article. Hard to take it seriously with a joke like that in the middle of it.

 

[hawtdawg]

They are unconstitutional

I sincerely doubt that Taiwan gives 2 shits about the US constitution.

 

[DownTheSky]

Not surprised. Companies like Samsung is build entirely on copy and copy better.

And that's why they're successful.

 

[Omar F1]

Honestly, whenever I heard the news about their 14nm manufacturing I said what the hell, it seemed so quick and easy to implement while Intel has worked very hard through the years to achieve their current status.

 

[stuff_me_good]

You have to remember, at some point when they are the leading company, they are the ones being copied and can only loose against others. That's when it hurts the most.

 

[positivedoppler]

I was commenting on a roadmap from the article. Hard to take it seriously with a joke like that in the middle of it.

So you are questioning the legitimacy of that article and this thread about Samsung's IP theft of TSC because it failed to acknowledge how superior Intel's manufacturing is over everybody else?

Intel is 100% irrelevant in this thread.

 

[Arachnotronic]

That roadmap is all sorts of BS. Firstly, Intel has had 22nm products on the market since Q2 2012. It also goes on to compare a roadmap of Intels 14nm products hitting the market, against BS roadmaps of the other 2 companies. I mean Samsung and TSMC have had 16/14nm out since last year? really? name one product made by samsung and TSMC that's shipping at 16 or 14nm.

The commentary from the Maybank analyst was also pretty horribly off the mark, but that's another story for another thread.

 

[hawtdawg]

So you are questioning the legitimacy of that article and this thread about Samsung's IP theft of TSC because it failed to acknowledge how superior Intel's manufacturing is over everybody else?

Intel is 100% irrelevant in this thread.

I'm sorry, but an article specifically about process leads that puts its lack of knowledge of process leads on display for everyone to see, should definitely have its credibility called into question.

 

[mrmt]

Regardless, and TSMC knows this well, the damage is already done. Nothing the courts can do will change the situation.

Any chance TSMC is going to pursue the weakest link in this spy ring, the employees, in order to set out example?

 

[Idontcare]

Any chance TSMC is going to pursue the weakest link in this spy ring, the employees, in order to set out example?

It is a specific employee, and it was known from the moment he left that he had gone turncoat (his wife is Korean).

Example-wise, this is about morals and ethics. What defines a person as being trustworthy of not stealing you blind when you invite them over to your home for dinner on a Friday night.

The individual of interest here was an opportunist, the very sort of person who is readily recruited to sell out their home country as a spy for a little extra pocket money.

When your personal ethics are like that, of course you simply seek out the highest bidder and to hell with anyone that placed any trust in you.

 

[Gryz]

Do we know why he changed jobs ? It's easy to assume it was just for the money. But maybe he had different reasons.

BTW, as far as I know, the whole startup culture in Silicon Valley is exactly the same thing. Software engineers learn the tricks at large companies. And then start or join a startup to repeat those same tricks. They only have to do it better. Or faster. Just for more money. Or maybe to escape big-company culture. Or whatever. But they learned the technology, the market, the market opportunities and the potential customers while working for someone else. It's software engineers, but also hardware engineers who done that. And management. Heck, even senior VPs leave their big companies to start or join a startup to compete directly with their previous employer.

 

[Idontcare]

Do we know why he changed jobs ? It's easy to assume it was just for the money. But maybe he had different reasons.

Define "we".

If you mean "me", IDC, then yes, I know. The maneuverings are right here, front and center in our faces in Asia.

But if you mean the rest of the world based on what can best be done to understand the situation by interpreting pseudo-random web articles, I fear the gravity of the situation is far too under-represented in the press.

 

[justanotherboy]

If you mean "me", IDC, then yes, I know. The maneuverings are right here, front and center in our faces in Asia.

Can you share more about it?

 

[Jimzz]

It is a specific employee, and it was known from the moment he left that he had gone turncoat (his wife is Korean).

Example-wise, this is about morals and ethics. What defines a person as being trustworthy of not stealing you blind when you invite them over to your home for dinner on a Friday night.

The individual of interest here was an opportunist, the very sort of person who is readily recruited to sell out their home country as a spy for a little extra pocket money.

When your personal ethics are like that, of course you simply seek out the highest bidder and to hell with anyone that placed any trust in you.

Yea because most companies take care of their people so well they have earned their trust and allegiance. /s


Sorry but companies look at a employee as a tool, nothing else and will throw them away if they are not working for them at the moment. And even if they are working if they think they can get them to train someone cheaper to replace them they will. When a company puts its allegiance to the dollar so will its employees.
Why should a person give any allegiance to a company when someone else will take better care of them?