Did Creative foul up the Vista Audigy drivers?

[Nothinman]

Then get your ears checked because there is a difference.

That's pretty harsh coming from someone who has no knowledge about me or my hardware. And I stand by my statement especially considering that most people think MP3s sound fine and don't demand all of their albums in something lossless like FLAC.

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: AmberClad
Now sound, on the other hand, I just don't really see where the future lies as far as innovation in that area. You're going to get to the point where human hearing is going to be the limiting factor, kind of like how connection speed is now the limiting factor for network speed, not LAN hardware.

Anyways, I think we're going to get to the point where you'll find premium sound chipsets on motherboards that will rival today's X-Fi. Might not be all the far off, if the lack of innovation from Creative is any indication.

There's still plenty innovation left, it's just that no one wants to do it. EAX is still basically 3D sound sources passed through DSPs to apply occlusion and fake reverb. If everything was done via raytracing (instead of just a couple of orders at best like it is now), then there would be a notable improvement in sound quality and correctness. However most people think status quo is good enough, so that's not going to happen.

 

[postmortemIA]

Audio is inherently analog, and only good hardware can produce/process good analog signal, that is fundamental thing that some of you don't get. Creative's sound cards have decent hardware (DA converters and such), while onboard sound get as cheap as they can get...

 

[Nothinman]

And what you don't seem to get is that most people can't really hear the difference and/or just don't care. I've been using the onboard sound on this machine to watch DVDs, listen to music, play a few games, etc and I've never once thought "Man this sucks, I need to get an X-Fi!".

It's like fast food. It's not anywhere near the best food available but most of the time it's more than good enough.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: AmberClad
Now sound, on the other hand, I just don't really see where the future lies as far as innovation in that area. You're going to get to the point where human hearing is going to be the limiting factor, kind of like how connection speed is now the limiting factor for network speed, not LAN hardware.

Anyways, I think we're going to get to the point where you'll find premium sound chipsets on motherboards that will rival today's X-Fi. Might not be all the far off, if the lack of innovation from Creative is any indication.

There's still plenty innovation left, it's just that no one wants to do it. EAX is still basically 3D sound sources passed through DSPs to apply occlusion and fake reverb. If everything was done via raytracing (instead of just a couple of orders at best like it is now), then there would be a notable improvement in sound quality and correctness. However most people think status quo is good enough, so that's not going to happen.

I dont think its that they dont want to do it...they couldnt do it if they wanted to. Creative bought what was left of aureal after they sued them into the ground (wavetracing patents included), and bought sensaura shortly thereafter. They own pretty much every possible patent related to hardware 3d audio, and because of that, have been able to stretch what would have been about 2 years of innovation into about 10. Theyre just now getting around to re-releasing old sensaura features with their X-Fi (elevation filters and macroFX) and branding them as new.

With wavetracing having died with aureal so, so long ago, most people have forgotten how damn good it sounded, and that was a mostly software based algorithm on Pentium 300s. The things that could be done with C2Ds and the like would probably sound amazing, but creative would bring the sue hammer down on any company that so much as tried to create such an algorithm.

EAX was supposed to be simpler and easier to implement, but it was so much work to tag every single little part of a level with different reverb that it was never well implemented in ANY game that I've heard in many, many years. With A3D, it just took the geometry and ran with it, so even though you were in a hangar, if you were in a tight hallway in said hangar, it would sound like a tight hallway, and not a huge open cavernous space.

We never did get to play a true A3D 3 game - by 2001, they had already worked in wavetracing that took into account the material the sound was bouncing off of (metal, wood, glass, etc), volumetric sound sources, and a whole bunch of other neat things, but the company was killed before it came out. At creatives current rate, that technology that was fully complete over 6 years ago will be reintroduced in 2011.

Thankfully there were two companies that survived the 3d graphics consolidation, or else had only Ati or Nvidia survived alone, we'd probably be getting DX8 next year.

 

[jonmcc33]

Originally posted by: Mem
I think it depends on what onboard sound you are listening to and speakers etc...onboard sound has come a long way over the years, the high end onboard sound is good enough for most people,I remember being quite happy with my nforce 2 onboard sound (which now sounds dated compared to a lot of high end onboard sound motherboards).

Ah, okay then there's a difference in opinion here. You think it's "good enough for most people" where as if you enjoy anything you are listening to, which most people generally will not care, then it will be unacceptable.

Originally posted by: Nothinman
That's pretty harsh coming from someone who has no knowledge about me or my hardware. And I stand by my statement especially considering that most people think MP3s sound fine and don't demand all of their albums in something lossless like FLAC.

How do I need to have knowledge of your hardware? I suggested that you get your ears checked. Those are on the side of your head and not in your computer.

MP3 audio is acceptable but the onboard audio problem adds hiss, crack and pop to that audio.

Some people can't tell a difference between XviD and x264 but I can. Some people can't tell the difference between onboard audio and a separate PCI sound card but I can.

Normally speakers will not let you hear the problems with onboard audio. You need a pair of good headphones and you'll hear it.

 

[Nothinman]

How do I need to have knowledge of your hardware? I suggested that you get your ears checked. Those are on the side of your head and not in your computer.

Because you don't know what my hardware sounds like so you can't make a judgment as to whether or not there are problems with the sound that I'm not hearing.

 

[Mem]

Ah, okay then there's a difference in opinion here. You think it's "good enough for most people" where as if you enjoy anything you are listening to, which most people generally will not care, then it will be unacceptable.

In simple terms onobard sound has improved over the years this is a known fact,CPU usage now is not even an issue, most people are happy with onboard sound for their computer needs,hence the decline in sales for stand alone sound cards.

How do I need to have knowledge of your hardware? I suggested that you get your ears checked. Those are on the side of your head and not in your computer.

MP3 audio is acceptable but the onboard audio problem adds hiss, crack and pop to that audio.

Some people can't tell a difference between XviD and x264 but I can. Some people can't tell the difference between onboard audio and a separate PCI sound card but I can.

Its a question of degree and also what you are happy with,personally onboard sound is good enough for general computer use ,however if I want to listen to proper hi-fi at its best from my CD collection then I use my hi-fi(Mission speakers,Musical Fidelity amp etc).

Btw I had no crackle or pop from my onboard sound on my old nForce 2,however each brand/model will have different sound quality.
End of the day you can argue this all day,kind of pointless really since its down to what you are happy with and what your ears tell you,other peoples ears don't come into it.

Normally speakers will not let you hear the problems with onboard audio. You need a pair of good headphones and you'll hear it.

Untrue!....also how do you define normal speakers?...good speakers will be as good as good headphones, if in both cases the quality of the source and your hearing are up to it.

 

[nerp]

Oh dear lord, not another audiophile debate.

The fact of the matter is that Creative cards are not much better than cheap onboard solutions. Creative makes junk. If we were talking about professional DACs for use in audio production connected to a pair of balanced, self-powered studio monitors, then we could compare the difference.

But taking another analogy brought up here, the difference between creative and onboard is akin to comparing McDonalds and Wendy's.

And most people don't own speakers that are good enough to convey the subtle difference between a pro DAC and a consumer DAC. And to the guy complaining about interference with his onboard sound -- perhaps you own a cheap motherboard? I've built and used dozens of machines with onboard sound and not one of them has exhibited any noise or interference except for some of the earliest solutions in the late 90s and early 00s. Nowadays, onboard has become decent enough to produce virtually identical results as any ripoff creative consumer junk out there.

If you're really an audio purist, you should know better than to buy creative anyway. They utilize all sorts of filtering, enhancement and post processing whizzbang effects to make up for mediocre DACs and designs (hello Bose). A true pro card doesn't do any of that, or even include onboard aplification. Put an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 and a Creative card side by side and you'll notice the difference quite quickly on a pair of good monitors. You won't hear the difference on consumer junk speakers (logitech), however.

Creative has created an effective mind-warping effect with their products and the evidence is in this thread. People are remarkable at hearing what they want to hear and imagining quality when they've wasted their money.

Most consumer junk inflates the bass and produces muddy highs -- many people think that sounds better than balanced audio. Spend $10,000 on a high end recording setup and Joe Schmoe with his Creative card and Logitech speakers will think it sounds "tinny".

Now is a good time for the guy who insists on tubes and vinyl to chime in. *YAWN*

 

[hclarkjr]

i have a audigy 2 zs installed on my system and am happy with it's performance. sounds and mp3's play fine for me. i think from reading this post that people are buying something for cheap and want it to perform like a more expensive card.

 

[stash]

Now is a good time for the guy who insists on tubes and vinyl to chime in. *YAWN*

/me sticks his head in...

Just kidding But in another life, I was a professional musician, so I have a pretty good ear compared to most people. And the onboard sound is very good, whether driving my speakers or headphones.

Nerp makes a good point...if you are a serious audiophile or a professional sound engineer, you wouldn't use crap from Creative anyway.

 

[themisfit610]

Onboard audio has really started to impress me.

I'm surprised to say that right now I'm at work, using an HP DC7700 workstation, which has Realtek HD Audio. I'm driving Senn HD-580s through this setup - feeding the Realtek from Foobar's kernel streaming. My source is internet radio at 44.1 KHz MP3 -> 176,400 KHz resampled.

I'm honestly very pleased. Yes, this is internet radio, so the 96kbit data rate really limits abilities. But I listen to this station a lot at home (where I have an audigy2 ZS), and it honestly sounds just as good here, if not better. These HP boxes have pretty powerful headphone amplifiers. Not amazing by any means, but these machines can push more power than my Audigy2 can that's for sure.

I do hear a tiny bit of EMI, but at the volume levels I find useful, it's inaudible. If I crank up the master volume a lot then it's nasty. The funny thing is this noise floor varies between workstation to workstation (all identical hardware). My other box for example has lots of noise even at moderate volume.

There's no doubt that there will always be a market for dedicated audio cards, if nothing else for extra physical connections like optical / coax S/PDIF in and out. Obviously audiophiles and recording engineers will always have their dedicated hardware.

But, creative is headed out and nobody's crying about it. I personally enjoyed my Audigy2 ZS. The Windows XP drivers were great (WORLDS better than the Chaintech AV-710 that I tried to replace it with). As we all know the Vista drivers are pretty crappy. I just switched to x64 and we'll see how that works out...

I did have one terrible issue with my Audigy 2 on XP - Oblivion refused to run properly. It would inevitably start making a horrible screeching noise a few seconds after loading a game, and hard reboot the system. Even on a fresh reinstall of Windows. Maybe this will work with Vista? I was switching back and forth between my ALC850 (GARBAGE - very very noisy and not HD) and the Audigy2

My next box will have HD audio for sure - just in case

~MiSfit

 

[jonmcc33]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

How do I need to have knowledge of your hardware? I suggested that you get your ears checked. Those are on the side of your head and not in your computer.

Because you don't know what my hardware sounds like so you can't make a judgment as to whether or not there are problems with the sound that I'm not hearing.

If it's onboard audio I already know that it will sound like crap. I don't need to know your specs to know that.

 

[jonmcc33]

Originally posted by: Mem
In simple terms onobard sound has improved over the years this is a known fact,CPU usage now is not even an issue, most people are happy with onboard sound for their computer needs,hence the decline in sales for stand alone sound cards.

CPU usage? Are you talking about performance in games? What's with you people? I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about sound quality. That has nothing to do with CPU usage declining on onboard audio.

The bottom line is that the chip on the motherboard suffers from interference, period. That distorts the audio. If it has a Realtek chip then it's crap.

 

[Nothinman]

If it's onboard audio I already know that it will sound like crap. I don't need to know your specs to know that.

IMO it sounds fine so f' off and Creative sucks so you lose because it's totally opinion anyway.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: jonmcc33

Originally posted by: Mem
In simple terms onobard sound has improved over the years this is a known fact,CPU usage now is not even an issue, most people are happy with onboard sound for their computer needs,hence the decline in sales for stand alone sound cards.

CPU usage? Are you talking about performance in games? What's with you people? I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about sound quality. That has nothing to do with CPU usage declining on onboard audio.

The bottom line is that the chip on the motherboard suffers from interference, period. That distorts the audio. If it has a Realtek chip then it's crap.

You like twisting other people's words,cpu usage has to do with gaming I thought that was obvious,with dual core/quad core and Vista this is not even an issue.

Sounds to me you are posting just to flame ,anyway I have said my piece.So what if you don't like onboard sound,many people do,end of the day your opinion means nothing to other people,I grow tired of this pointless debate.As I have stated onboard sound quality can be very good depending on the motherboard,at end of the day its what the user is happy with not you or me.

 

[hclarkjr]

i am curious as to what driver those with 64 bit vista are loading for their audigy 2 zs? i ran windows update and loaded the driver it selected and have had no troubles at all with it.

 

[lxskllr]

I'm not really happy with my xfi purchase. The front panel box is nice, but $130 is a lot of money for a headphone/mic jack that I use twice a year maybe. This'll be the last sound card I get unless somebody comes up with something truly interesting.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: hclarkjr
i am curious as to what driver those with 64 bit vista are loading for their audigy 2 zs? i ran windows update and loaded the driver it selected and have had no troubles at all with it.

I'm using official ones from here. .

 

[scottws]

I had an Audigy in my old system from late '01, but I stuck with the Realtek onboard audio (the "HD" version, for whatever that is worth) for my new system I built in February. To be honest, the only difference I have noticed is when there is no sound at all. I can hear a bit of hiss and crackle in the speakers. But when playing a game or music or anything else, I have never thought to myself: "This sounds like crap! I need to snag my old Audigy or buy a new X-Fi!" I have decent speakers for a computer setup: Klipsch GMX-A 2.1. Not some Logitech or Creative crap.

I too plan on never buying another sound card again unless something truly interesting happens.

 

[postmortemIA]

Originally posted by: scottws
I had an Audigy in my old system from late '01, but I stuck with the Realtek onboard audio (the "HD" version, for whatever that is worth) for my new system I built in February. To be honest, the only difference I have noticed is when there is no sound at all. I can hear a bit of hiss and crackle in the speakers. But when playing a game or music or anything else, I have never thought to myself: "This sounds like crap! I need to snag my old Audigy or buy a new X-Fi!" I have decent speakers for a computer setup: Klipsch GMX-A 2.1. Not some Logitech or Creative crap.

I too plan on never buying another sound card again unless something truly interesting happens.

I played Medieval II on non-Creative card with HW 3D support and it sounded like crap - compared to EAX 4.0.

also Bioshock sound terrific on EAX.

 

[jonmcc33]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

If it's onboard audio I already know that it will sound like crap. I don't need to know your specs to know that.

IMO it sounds fine so f' off and Creative sucks so you lose because it's totally opinion anyway.

I won't deny that Creative sucks. There are many PCI sound card options available. They all sound better than onboard. Heck, even a C-Media PCI sound card will sound better than a C-Media onboard.

 

[jonmcc33]

Originally posted by: Mem
You like twisting other people's words,cpu usage has to do with gaming I thought that was obvious,with dual core/quad core and Vista this is not even an issue.

Sounds to me you are posting just to flame ,anyway I have said my piece.So what if you don't like onboard sound,many people do,end of the day your opinion means nothing to other people,I grow tired of this pointless debate.As I have stated onboard sound quality can be very good depending on the motherboard,at end of the day its what the user is happy with not you or me.

I could care less about CPU usage. Like I said, this is about sound quality, harmonic distortion, etc. If you want to talk about CPU usage and AC'97 with codecs creating the sound quality then we can do that. There's no substitute for a real hardware DAC.

Flaming? Who is doing that? I don't find onboard audio acceptable and you are the one arguing about it. If you need proof, just look up the specs of real sound cards vs onboard audio. You'll need to use Google to find them.

I don't know, I guess some people still find CD to be better than DVD audio too.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: jonmcc33

Originally posted by: Mem
You like twisting other people's words,cpu usage has to do with gaming I thought that was obvious,with dual core/quad core and Vista this is not even an issue.

Sounds to me you are posting just to flame ,anyway I have said my piece.So what if you don't like onboard sound,many people do,end of the day your opinion means nothing to other people,I grow tired of this pointless debate.As I have stated onboard sound quality can be very good depending on the motherboard,at end of the day its what the user is happy with not you or me.

I could care less about CPU usage. Like I said, this is about sound quality, harmonic distortion, etc. If you want to talk about CPU usage and AC'97 with codecs creating the sound quality then we can do that. There's no substitute for a real hardware DAC.

Flaming? Who is doing that? I don't find onboard audio acceptable and you are the one arguing about it. If you need proof, just look up the specs of real sound cards vs onboard audio. You'll need to use Google to find them.

I don't know, I guess some people still find CD to be better than DVD audio too.

I was going to reply but frankly you are not worth the effort , I just get this thread back on topic.

Creative Audigy drivers for Vista work but they still need to add their software(they said they was going to) however we all know Creative and how long it takes them to do things.



Personally I'm going back to onboard sound on my next upgrade,I feel Creative Labs time has passed and gone.

 

[jonmcc33]

Originally posted by: Mem
I was going to reply but frankly you are not worth the effort , I just get this thread back on topic.

Creative Audigy drivers for Vista work but they still need to add their software(they said they was going to) however we all know Creative and how long it takes them to do things.



Personally I'm going back to onboard sound on my next upgrade,I feel Creative Labs time has passed and gone.

Wow, people here are touchy aren't they? You really don't know what I'm talking about? Have you ever listened to onboard audio with headphones? You can't hear the distortion caused by the interference from being on the motherboard? I'm not saying that it sucks THAT bad, I'm just saying that there's too much interference and harmonic distortion from the chipset actually being ON the motherboard. When you take that chipset and put it on a daughter board it becomes quite easy to listen to.

That's all I'm saying. You all are just going into extremes about this and I find it quite strange. Usually you'll hear it when you move your mouse. Slight distortion noise from the other onboard chipsets.

Calm down people. It's not that hard to accept when you take the time to listen to it.