Did some work on family member's car, now it has a knock...can't find source.

[cross6]

04 Ford Fusion 3.0 Duratec DOHC V6. 209,100 miles.

PCV valve failed, line collapsed, and blew out the gaskets.

I replaced:

Valve Cover Gaskets (Fel-Pro)
Upper and Lower Intake Gaskets (Fel-Pro)
Throttle Body Gasket (Fel-Pro)
Timing Cover Gasket (Fel-Pro)
Front Main Seal (SKF)
Oil Pan gasket (Fel-Pro)
PCV valve (Motorcraft)
PCV hose and tube assembly (Motorcraft)
Spark Plugs (Motorcraft SP-433)
Fuel Filter (Wix)

Had to drop front exhaust to the flex pipe to drop oil pan. R&R'd harmonic balancer too, obviously. It looked good, but had a groove from old hardened seal. I installed a repair sleeve from national.

Car sat for 4 weeks on jack stands with oil drained.

Drain and fill twice with Motorcraft 5w-20 Syn Blend and Motorcraft FL-820s filter.

Now it's knocking...or ticking.

Hard to tell. It's not quite bassy enough for what I would call a knock, but not quite high pitched enough to be a tick...sounds almost like a fuel injector on steroids times 100.

VERY HARD TO PINPOINT. I used the hose trick and my mechanic's stethoscope. Can't find an obvious spot. Sounds almost like coming from valley or valve covers. I hear it loudest in the downpipes.

I hoped the hydraulic lash adjusters bled down or one collapsed, but I ran it at a steady 2300 rpm on the highway, changed oil, did it again, and nothing. It's not pumping up.

It completely disappears above 2000 RPM. Engine runs smooth. I have a scantool and there are no obvious problems. Trims are perfect, etc.

I re torqued exhaust, sprayed permatex copper spray sealant on them, and ran engine while tweaking exhaust pipes with broom handle. Made no difference.

Took serpentine belt off and ran engine, still there.

I also replaced the little rear cam driven water pump belt, and I'm aware of TSB 06-3-5 "Camshaft Tick Noise" but I wouldn't call this camshaft tick. More of a whack.

Also, TSB says it only does it when warm. This does it cold or hot.

I also did a cylinder drop test. I couldn't get to #3, but dropping all the others did not change the knock/tick.

I'm at a loss.

It started this immediately upon startup after repairs. Not soon after. I cranked the engine for about a minute while I bled the power steering system. So I know the engine was well primed. The oil light went out while I was cranking.

So stumped. Any ideas? I guess next step is to re-drop the oil pan?

 

[MixMasterTang]

Get a stethoscope to help isolate the source?

 

[cross6]

Get a stethoscope to help isolate the source?

I used the hose trick and my mechanic's stethoscope. Can't find an obvious spot. Sounds almost like coming from valley or valve covers. I hear it loudest in the downpipes.

Reading is fundamental.

 

[JCH13]

Have the ignition coils ever been replaced? Did you put anti-seize on the spark plugs?

I had an ignition coil fail in a car, it was very noticeable at lower RPM, but not so much at higher RPMs. If a coil went bad, or a plug got fouled (possibly due to anti-seize) one might observe the symptoms you list.

 

[jlee]

Small exhaust leak from the exhaust manifold? Does it stop or quiet down when the engine is hot?

 

[master_shake_]

try half a can of seafoam in the crankcase if you think its a lifter issue.

 

[MixMasterTang]

Reading is fundamental.

So are cliffs notes.

 

[smackababy]

Did you check the door?

 

[cross6]

Have the ignition coils ever been replaced? Did you put anti-seize on the spark plugs?

I had an ignition coil fail in a car, it was very noticeable at lower RPM, but not so much at higher RPMs. If a coil went bad, or a plug got fouled (possibly due to anti-seize) one might observe the symptoms you list.

Interesting. Some of the coils have been replaced.

I put just the "tiniest" amount of antiseize on the plugs, since the motorcraft plugs already have the "nonstick" coating on the threads.

 

[cross6]

Small exhaust leak from the exhaust manifold? Does it stop or quiet down when the engine is hot?

I'm leaning towards this. Because I did, uhh, maybe tweak the exhaust some when removing it. But it doesn't seem to get better when hot. Which contradicts it.

However, after googling, it seems these engines are notorious for manifold failures.

 

[jlee]

I'm leaning towards this. Because I did, uhh, maybe tweak the exhaust some when removing it. But it doesn't seem to get better when hot. Which contradicts it.

However, after googling, it seems these engines are notorious for manifold failures.

Could be a crack. Worth a look

 

[JulesMaximus]

Small exhaust leak from the exhaust manifold? Does it stop or quiet down when the engine is hot?

:thumbsup: I bet this is the cause.

 

[cross6]

I repeated the cylinder drop test today (disabling coil on plug modules one by one) and the knock did not change.

That rules out exhaust leaks and rod knock.

I timed the tick/knock. It happens 6 times per second. That's 360 times per minute. The valve train operates half the speed of the crankshaft. So 360 ticks/knocks per minute would correspond to 720 rpm engine speed if originating in valvetrain. My scan tool says engine is idling at 722 rpm.

Going to go after a collapsed hydraulic lash adjuster next.

Will also double check I torqued all the spark plugs down and didn't get distracted.

 

[Hartle4]

I repeated the cylinder drop test today (disabling coil on plug modules one by one) and the knock did not change.

That rules out exhaust leaks and rod knock.

I timed the tick/knock. It happens 6 times per second. That's 360 times per minute. The valve train operates half the speed of the crankshaft. So 360 ticks/knocks per minute would correspond to 720 rpm engine speed if originating in valvetrain. My scan tool says engine is idling at 722 rpm.

Going to go after a collapsed hydraulic lash adjuster next.

Will also double check I torqued all the spark plugs down and didn't get distracted.

applying anti seize to a already coated plug is not the best thing to do, it can cause the plug to be over tightened, even when torqued, and put it too far into the head and cause the threads to strip out. Dont use anti seize on a coated plug, people get blown out plugs on the fords all the time doing this.

 

[JCH13]

applying anti seize to a already coated plug is not the best thing to do, it can cause the plug to be over tightened, even when torqued, and put it too far into the head and cause the threads to strip out. Dont use anti seize on a coated plug, people get blown out plugs on the fords all the time doing this.

To expand - when using anti-seize on any (normally dry) fastener the torque should be de-rated by about 35% in order to compensate for the reduction in thread friction.

 

[slag]

So are cliffs notes.

It took all of 20 seconds to read the post.

You fail.

I would try sea foam in the crankcase plus another oil flush.

 

[cross6]

applying anti seize to a already coated plug is not the best thing to do, it can cause the plug to be over tightened, even when torqued, and put it too far into the head and cause the threads to strip out. Dont use anti seize on a coated plug, people get blown out plugs on the fords all the time doing this.

To expand - when using anti-seize on any (normally dry) fastener the torque should be de-rated by about 35% in order to compensate for the reduction in thread friction.

Normally, I'd agree. But the coating on motorcraft spark plugs is very prone to failing.

When I say a small amount of antiseize, I mean a ridiculously tiny amount.

I also agree about the torque. That's why I torque ford plugs by hand.

When it comes to ford and motorcraft plugs, using torque wrenches will get you blown out plugs every time.

But it's the exception to the rule.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

All I can say is you've got some skills. That's a bunch of top end work, good part choices, and some very detail oriented diagnostics. Hope you get it fixed up.

 

[cross6]

So I'm looking back over pictures I took to document things and I noticed something. Not sure if it's parallax or not.

But is that left intake valve (bottom left) open (down) when it should be closed (up) like it's twin to the right?

http://imgur.com/fjTFla3

 

[JCH13]

That's REALLY hard to tell... but it sort of does look collapsed.

Early Miatas have issues with their HLAs getting plugged and ticking. A couple of people have worked out methods for cleaning them without actually disassembling the engine and taking each one apart.

A couple points from the Miata world:

-Miatas that regularly get driven for long distances have fewer HLA issues. Perhaps a long highway drive is in your future?

-Adding ATF (with or without Seafoam) to your engine oil can help clean out the HLA ports. I used this trick on my Miata once: I did 2qts of ATF, a bottle of seafoam, and a quart of engine oil. I let the engine idle for about an hour, revving it a bit, and then I drained everything out and refilled with fresh engine oil. Did the trick.

-Others have had good luck simply using a heavier weight oil. The theory here being that a heavier oil raises oil pressure in the engine, which forces its way into the lifter and/or refills collapsed lifters. In your case it might be worth adding 15w40 or 20w50, driving the car for a while (including revving it a bit) to see if you can refill that lifter without taking everything apart again.

TL;DR - Do an oil change with very heavy weight oil, add AFT+Seafoam, and go for an extended, spirited, drive.

 

[cross6]

That's REALLY hard to tell... but it sort of does look collapsed.

Early Miatas have issues with their HLAs getting plugged and ticking. A couple of people have worked out methods for cleaning them without actually disassembling the engine and taking each one apart.

A couple points from the Miata world:

-Miatas that regularly get driven for long distances have fewer HLA issues. Perhaps a long highway drive is in your future?

-Adding ATF (with or without Seafoam) to your engine oil can help clean out the HLA ports. I used this trick on my Miata once: I did 2qts of ATF, a bottle of seafoam, and a quart of engine oil. I let the engine idle for about an hour, revving it a bit, and then I drained everything out and refilled with fresh engine oil. Did the trick.

-Others have had good luck simply using a heavier weight oil. The theory here being that a heavier oil raises oil pressure in the engine, which forces its way into the lifter and/or refills collapsed lifters. In your case it might be worth adding 15w40 or 20w50, driving the car for a while (including revving it a bit) to see if you can refill that lifter without taking everything apart again.

TL;DR - Do an oil change with very heavy weight oil, add AFT+Seafoam, and go for an extended, spirited, drive.

Yeah, HLA tick was one of my first directions of thought. My fam member bought this thing in January and "doesn't remember" ever having the oil changed. (And they commute to work)...

Then I come along and flush it with 5w-20 motorcraft syn blend which is affectionately known as "brown water" by techs since it basically pours like tranny fluid.

So god knows what the used car dealer filled this thing up with. Probably Lucas or STP or Rislone etc.

 

[cross6]

Finally! A Lead!

Ran the engine for 30 seconds and then quickly pulled front bank plugs.

Wet and smell of Gas.

I do have negative trim on both banks, but it's under 10% (combined short term and long term) so I wasn't thinking much of it.

Now, this didn't seem to be a problem before, and no misfire code. And I don't *feel* a misfire, and I'm pretty sensitive to that. (Because Fords will dump gas out the tailpipe before they throw a code sometimes...)

So I'm thinking I might have a leaky injector that was covered up by the factory fuel filter with 213K on it. Now she's flowing.

Also going to go after a leaking fuel rail damper.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Don't they normally run rich on startup (short term)?

 

[cross6]

Don't they normally run rich on startup (short term)?

The trims? I meant those are the trims in closed loop mode, from the last few days of strategy re-learn.

 

[JCH13]

If you only rant the engine for 30s it's doubtful you were very far out of the after start enrichments, and definitely running rich because the engine is cold. I wouldn't read too far into it...

Replacing the fuel filter could have fixed some serious running issues, but the FPR would keep the rails at 43.5psi (or whatever it wants) even with a leaky injector. Replacing the fuel filter wouldn't make the rails run at a higher pressure, causing the injector to leak more.

However... getting a piece of crud into a fuel line after replacing the filter could do it...