Did the left lose election after election after election because of being overly PC?

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Nope he's wrong although i'll give him credit for a 1/4 clue. I really doubt if a single lefty dipshit in the forum is going to watch the clip and see what Maher actually says.

Lol, a lot of us (like me!) watch him every week. Not everyone is as unable to handle dissenting information as you are.

Somehow I doubt you would be willing to watch him criticize Republicans and take what he says to heart.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
There is a problem with labels I think, that is why I posted specific examples. On foreign policy, I think all parties are sheering wildly to the far far right. The left appear to cheer lead our overseas butchery as much as the right. Domestically, I think most people are shifting to the left.... including the right. More and more right wingers are supportive of single payer for example. I am excluding the fringe alr-right of course. For confirmation bias I went to the Atlantic who published this...

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/01/why-america-is-moving-left/419112/

You said you wanted something quantifiable and when I provided it you went back to anecdotes.

The republicans have shifted, quantifiably, to the far right. The idea that intervention overseas is a conservative position is odd as well considering liberals have been more interventionist than conservatives since Woodrow Wilson at least.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
That sounds like a party that's consolidated it's power into concentrated areas of group think, and in doing so, lost site of the broader ground game. Rallying the troops in areas of the country already receptive to your message is not a plurality so much as it is herding sheep.

I mean either that or the Constitution deliberately gives disproportionate representation to less populated areas.

Frankly, the idea that people are sheep because they are concentrated in one area is offensive and ridiculous. People’s sheep-ness or lack thereof is not based on density.

Look how long it took Clinton to release a statement condemning Weinstein. Democrats repeatedly get paralyzed by PC identity politics, purity tests and their own indeciveness.

Wait what? People aren’t condemning sex offenders because of political correctness? That makes zero sense. I mean do we really need to pull up all the threads where people are complaining about a liberal witch hunt against campus rape where they are criminalizing consensual sex out of excessive political correctness? Amazing that liberals can be demonized for excessive political correctness for condemning sex offenders too much AND not enough.

Also remember the question here is why Democrats are losing elections. The idea that this is a problem because Dems aren’t condemning sex offenders fast enough seems to gloss over the inconvenient fact that Republicans nominated a sex offender for president. If Clinton waited five days where’s the outrage for all the republicans who have waited a year (and counting)? If that’s what repels the electorate then Democrats should be cleaning up.

This does not mean I advocate what the Republicans are doing, but I don't find it weird at all.

Yes there is an electoral structure element to it, but Obama didn't seem to have that problem because he offered a compelling universal message. Clinton, Gore, Kerry...these candidates failed to inspire and were easy targets for the Republican smear machine.

It’s hard to see how that relates to my point though. The OP wondered if Democrats were alienating people and I think it’s frankly bizarre to label the party that consistently gets the most votes as the alienating one.
 
Feb 16, 2005
14,035
5,338
136
why aren't we talking about 2nd hand smoke? It's more dangerous than the gop or the democrats, by the time you finish reading this bullshit, 1/2 billion lung cells will have succumbed to 2nd hand smoke and nobody's doing anything about it.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
There is no evidence that Trump was being investigated during the election. There is evidence his associates were being investigated, but those investigations predated the campaign. Did Obama somehow know Trump was going to pick Paul Manafort and Carter Page ahead of time? Considering that Mueller is likely to indict Manafort for some of the things he was under investigation for then is Mueller in on it too? Talk about seeing what you want to see.

Also you’ve switched from the investigation of Trump being a political witch hunt to a claim of a sitting president using the FBI to attack his political enemies, an extraordinary accusation of criminal behavior by Obama, based on nothing. Is this how desperate we are for false equivalence?



Comey was a registered republican who was previously appointed as a US attorney and to a position senior to FBI director (Deputy AG) by George W. Bush. The idea that Comey was some sort of Obama’s loyalist is lunacy. The FBI director is also appointed to ten year terms specifically so that presidents don’t fire them when they undertake politically inconvenient investigations.

I mean think how far off the deep end we are going now where a lifelong Republican double GWB appointee is now some crazed leftist partisan.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ThZcq1oJQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW6N5cJjEGo


Trump and the Bush's don't seem close either.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
Some PC stuff is too much, but God damn...pales in comparison to the conservative status in our country.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
I mean either that or the Constitution deliberately gives disproportionate representation to less populated areas.

Frankly, the idea that people are sheep because they are concentrated in one area is offensive and ridiculous. People’s sheep-ness or lack thereof is not based on density.



Wait what? People aren’t condemning sex offenders because of political correctness? That makes zero sense. I mean do we really need to pull up all the threads where people are complaining about a liberal witch hunt against campus rape where they are criminalizing consensual sex out of excessive political correctness? Amazing that liberals can be demonized for excessive political correctness for condemning sex offenders too much AND not enough.

Also remember the question here is why Democrats are losing elections. The idea that this is a problem because Dems aren’t condemning sex offenders fast enough seems to gloss over the inconvenient fact that Republicans nominated a sex offender for president. If Clinton waited five days where’s the outrage for all the republicans who have waited a year (and counting)? If that’s what repels the electorate then Democrats should be cleaning up.



It’s hard to see how that relates to my point though. The OP wondered if Democrats were alienating people and I think it’s frankly bizarre to label the party that consistently gets the most votes as the alienating one.
It makes perfect sense. Clinton made Trump's character central to her campaign. Hard to criticize one rich white guy for grabbing pvssy when your own husband was inserting cigars into others and one of your chief donors apparently was chasing some of the same pvssy as your opponent. Republicans tend to be hypocrites over a false sense of morality. Democrats tend to be hypocrites when it comes to identity politics. Amazing that Democrats are such crusaders against sexual predators except those in their own ranks. I see the same hypocrisy when anti gay Republicans turn out to be gay and not a word is said or when a pro lifer shoots up an abortion clinic.

As for representational democracy, the balance of votes versus alienation is the balance our government provides. Each party plays to its respective base. The Democrat base continues to concentrate itself in fortresses of group think. Rather than change our system of government, perhaps Democrats should concentrate on state elections. Howard Dean and Obama understood this. Democrats are alienating the votes they need. It doesn't matter if they run up the score on friendly terrain.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
It makes perfect sense. Clinton made Trump's character central to her campaign. Hard to criticize one rich white guy for grabbing pvssy when your own husband was inserting cigars into others and one of your chief donors apparently was chasing some of the same pvssy as your opponent. Republicans tend to be hypocrites over a false sense of morality. Democrats tend to be hypocrites when it comes to identity politics. Amazing that Democrats are such crusaders against sexual predators except those in their own ranks. I see the same hypocrisy when anti gay Republicans turn out to be gay and not a word is said or when a pro lifer shoots up an abortion clinic.

As for representational democracy, the balance of votes versus alienation is the balance our government provides. Each party plays to its respective base. The Democrat base continues to concentrate itself in fortresses of group think. Rather than change our system of government, perhaps Democrats should concentrate on state elections. Howard Dean and Obama understood this. Democrats are alienating the votes they need. It doesn't matter if they run up the score on friendly terrain.

I don't believe Clinton ever made pussy grabbing an issue. It barely registered against all the slime heaped upon her at the time.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
It makes perfect sense. Clinton made Trump's character central to her campaign. Hard to criticize one rich white guy for grabbing pvssy when your own husband was inserting cigars into others and one of your chief donors apparently was chasing some of the same pvssy as your opponent. Republicans tend to be hypocrites over a false sense of morality. Democrats tend to be hypocrites when it comes to identity politics. Amazing that Democrats are such crusaders against sexual predators except those in their own ranks. I see the same hypocrisy when anti gay Republicans turn out to be gay and not a word is said or when a pro lifer shoots up an abortion clinic.

I’m unaware of basically any Democrat that has defended Weinstein. I am aware of lots and lots of Republicans who not only defended Trump but nominated him for president and then voted for him.

This is yet another case of ridiculous false equivalency. The two parties aren’t even on the same planet. I feel like a broken record here but if you really want to fix our country one of the first things we have to do is stop pretending both parties are the same.

As for representational democracy, the balance of votes versus alienation is the balance our government provides. Each party plays to its respective base. The Democrat base continues to concentrate itself in fortresses of group think. Rather than change our system of government, perhaps Democrats should concentrate on state elections. Howard Dean and Obama understood this. Democrats are alienating the votes they need. It doesn't matter if they run up the score on friendly terrain.

If Obama understood that then why did democrats lose so many state offices on his watch? These two things aren’t mutually exclusive, by the way. You can simultaneously focus on down ballot elections while trying to make the overall system a bit more sane and logical.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136

As already noted this does exactly zero to support your point. You have accused President Obama’s of a very serious crime. It is only reasonable you supply literally any evidence to support it. I am particularly interested to see how you square the investigations of Trump’s associates predating their involvement with the campaign.

So again enough with the false equivalency. People think it is enlightened to blame both sides but in reality it’s just lazy thinking that enables the worst offenders. If we are going to fix our system it’s vital for us to recognize that one party really is a much, much bigger problem than the other.

You should read his book. It was written in 2012 but it rings even more true today than it did then. Especially salient to this discussion is their view of the problem of false equivalence that so many are drawn into.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Even_Worse_Than_It_Looks
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
I’m unaware of basically any Democrat that has defended Weinstein. I am aware of lots and lots of Republicans who not only defended Trump but nominated him for president and then voted for him.

This is yet another case of ridiculous false equivalency. The two parties aren’t even on the same planet. I feel like a broken record here but if you really want to fix our country one of the first things we have to do is stop pretending both parties are the same.



If Obama understood that then why did democrats lose so many state offices on his watch? These two things aren’t mutually exclusive, by the way. You can simultaneously focus on down ballot elections while trying to make the overall system a bit more sane and logical.
Forget about Weinstein, he is small game in the grand scheme of things. Let's talk about Bill Clinton. The sexual allegations against Bill Clinton nearly sank his 92 campaign yet numerous Democrats not only defended Clinton but nominated him for president and then voted for him. To this day Democrats still swoon over him. The only difference I see between Clinton and Trump on the sexual predator spectrum is Trump is on record saying some nasty things. Actions sometimes speak larger than words.

If you really want to fix our country, you have to stop claiming the high ground on a strategically irrelevant hill.
 
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Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,752
4,562
136
Their is a HUGE shift in ultra-partisan politics. The right has been shifting *HARD* right for the last 10-15 years. See: Tea Party. The left is slowly sliding left. When people on the left don't like something their party is doing they either don't vote or will vote 3rd party. On the right, they fall in line, plug their nose and vote down the party line. The right side politics is getting torn in two. Look at the division between establishment GOP and what Bannon/Mercer is trying to do. They are trying to pull a mini-coup on the US government. Many GOP voters either don't know, or don't care and the rest are just in the "Give me muh librul tears" side of spite voting and vote whoever has R in front of their name. Bernie bros wouldn't do the same.
The left is slowly sliding left? Are you kidding me?? Can you imagine a Democrat talking about making things like Social Security today if it didn't already exist? Even "Obamacare", healthcare reform blasted as full blown socialism was basically a plan conjured up by conservatives.

No. Conservatives are moving right so fast that liberals seems to be moving left solely by virtue of standing still in comparison.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
As already noted this does exactly zero to support your point. You have accused President Obama’s of a very serious crime. It is only reasonable you supply literally any evidence to support it. I am particularly interested to see how you square the investigations of Trump’s associates predating their involvement with the campaign.

So again enough with the false equivalency. People think it is enlightened to blame both sides but in reality it’s just lazy thinking that enables the worst offenders. If we are going to fix our system it’s vital for us to recognize that one party really is a much, much bigger problem than the other.

You should read his book. It was written in 2012 but it rings even more true today than it did then. Especially salient to this discussion is their view of the problem of false equivalence that so many are drawn into.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Even_Worse_Than_It_Looks

He's just trying to somehow justify the propaganda induced mass insanity that made Trump President. That's really what happened. They got played as chumps by the world's greatest con man with help from a lot of quarters, from Cambridge analytics to Russian operatives & the alt-right noise machine. They're still getting played. Some of them always will be.

What a Country, huh?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Forget about Weinstein, he is small game in the grand scheme of things. Let's talk about Bill Clinton. The sexual allegations against Bill Clinton nearly sank his 92 campaign yet numerous Democrats not only defended Clinton but nominated him for president and then voted for him. To this day Democrats still swoon over him. The only difference I see between Clinton and Trump on the sexual predator spectrum is Trump is on record saying some nasty things.

Yes, let’s talk about Bill Clinton. When Democrats nominated and voted for him there was nothing even remotely close to what was known about Trump when Republicans voted for him. What you had with Clinton was a sexual harassment lawsuit brought by Paula Jones, enlisting right wing media to help her. (A lawsuit she lost in basically every court, btw) What we had with Trump was him stating on tape that he enjoyed sexually assaulting women, something that was enabled by his celebrity.

In one case you had a ‘he said, she said’ court case. In the other you had a public admission of serial sex crimes. On what planet are those even remotely the same. Why would anyone even try to make that claim?

Actions sometimes speak larger than words.

Actions definitely speak larger than words. It’s why Republicans actually going out and voting for that guy says everything about how much they care. (Zero)

If you really want to fix our country, you have to stop claiming the high ground on a strategically irrelevant hill.

Huh? I don’t care about the sexual harassment things in particular, I’m saying the false equivalence that you’re engaging in here is part of a deep sickness in our country. If we can’t even admit that one party embracing someone who brags about serial sexual assault is worse than another where one particular official doesn’t condemn a shitty donor fast enough then there’s no point in rational discourse anymore because facts mean nothing.

Don’t you see that the worst actors are counting on people like you to whitewash their actions?
 
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Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
202
106
No.

The left lost because they didn't want to vote establishment Hillary and Trump won because he brought out every closeted racist to the ballot box.

Everybody brings out race when looking at the election outcome but I think it is a simple matter of values.

From what I have read, the greatest problem plaguing the Midwest is lack of economic opportunity in the rural areas. What does Trump do? He promises them jobs. Who else would they vote for?

Hilary barely even compared in the rural areas, and had the nerve to insult a lot of those voters. Even if she was correct in what she said about them being backwards, uneducated racists, she practically handed the election to Trump on a silver platter. Do you really think people will vote for a candidate who insults them?

My guess is that those rural voters suspected Trump was an idiot, but that he was at least an idiot with which they shared some values. As soon as Hilary starts talking about transgender rights I think their eyes glaze over because what they really want to hear is we are going to bring your jobs back.

Of course this does not mean that Trump did not lie in his campaign promises - I'm sure he did. I just think he campaigned smarter. He knew which States he had to swing to win, and he knew what he had to say to swing them. Hilary thought her liberal policies would win the day.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,513
4,607
136
No one forces you to be here.

And the electoral college is the most flawed thing this country has and it will split the country apart. Just watch.

Isn't that what you want.

LOL.

OMG. This country is fucked. I want no part of the same country with you. This would be the best time to divide the country and have Trumptards and Liberals go their own different ways in peace before we have a civil war and more people dead than we care to count but since you're a conservaterrorist, I bet you're gonna be happy to have a war.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,060
10,242
136
Trump is anti-PC to a fault. I think the liberals are PC to a fault.

I think you should take the time to break down what you've said here and really think about what you're saying.

For starters, read some definitions of the term "political correctness". Here's one (wikipedia):

"The term political correctness (adjectivally: politically correct; commonly abbreviated to PC or P.C.) is used to describe language, policies, or measures that are intended to avoid offense or disadvantage to members of particular groups in society.[1][2][3][4][5] Since the late 1980s, the term has come to refer to avoiding language or behavior that can be seen as excluding, marginalizing, or insulting groups of people considered disadvantaged or discriminated against, especially groups defined by sex or race. In public discourse and the media, it is generally used as a pejorative, implying that these policies are excessive."

I'll draw your attention to one word here: "avoid". To avoid saying something is to imply that one has decided that something they would have naturally asserted would in fact be offensive to some of their audience.

So, if a politician isn't starting sentences with "I'm not racist but...", does this mean that they're avoiding saying things they believe to be true to gain support from people who would otherwise detest them, or does it simply mean that they're not a bigoted arsehole? Both possibilities would likely be labelled as being "PC" by those inclined to use such a term, but the one who doesn't need to avoid being a bigoted arsehole because they honestly aren't should surely not be labelled "PC".

Therefore by labelling a person as "PC", you're implying that they would believe all the shit one can think of that would be considered "non-PC", but they're enough of a hypocrite to try and be friends with those you believe they detest.

To be "anti-PC" means one is a bigoted arsehole and doesn't care who knows it, and to be "PC" means one is a closet bigoted arsehole and a hypocrite. That doesn't exactly leave a lot of room for everyone else now, does it?

Next up, who exactly are "liberals": how many millions of people are you lumping into one group that you have termed "PC to a fault" and what the hell does that term even mean?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,345
15,156
136
Everybody brings out race when looking at the election outcome but I think it is a simple matter of values.

From what I have read, the greatest problem plaguing the Midwest is lack of economic opportunity in the rural areas. What does Trump do? He promises them jobs. Who else would they vote for?

Hilary barely even compared in the rural areas, and had the nerve to insult a lot of those voters. Even if she was correct in what she said about them being backwards, uneducated racists, she practically handed the election to Trump on a silver platter. Do you really think people will vote for a candidate who insults them?

My guess is that those rural voters suspected Trump was an idiot, but that he was at least an idiot with which they shared some values. As soon as Hilary starts talking about transgender rights I think their eyes glaze over because what they really want to hear is we are going to bring your jobs back.

Of course this does not mean that Trump did not lie in his campaign promises - I'm sure he did. I just think he campaigned smarter. He knew which States he had to swing to win, and he knew what he had to say to swing them. Hilary thought her liberal policies would win the day.

People bring up race as a factor because it was a factor.

Your theory of economic anxiety doesn't jive with the facts and the facts are that trump did better with whites who made more than $50k while Hillary did better with those who made less. If there was economic anxiety it certainly wasn't the driving cause for whites voting for trump.

As far as messaging goes, yeah Hillary didn't have a very good one but she certainly did have plans for those in need and she didn't bullshit to get votes. Her plans and policies were drowned out by multiple factors including trumps ability to monopolize the media and lower the bar of expectations. Hillarys email "scandal" didn't help, especially when comey came out in October with us nothing burger surprise. Add to that the spreading of propaganda by a propaganda expert, Russia, and you have a perfect storm.
 
Last edited:

Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
202
106
People being up race as a factor because it was a factor.

Your theory of economic anxiety doesn't jive with the facts and the facts are that trump did better with whites who made more than $50k while Hillary did better with those who made less. If there was economic anxiety it certainly wasn't the driving cause for whites voting for trump.

As far as messaging goes, yeah Hillary didn't have a very good one but she certainly did have plans for those in need and she didn't bullshit to get votes. Her plans and policies were drowned out by multiple factors including trumps ability to monopolize the media and lower the bar of expectations. Hillarys email "scandal" didn't help, especially when comey came out in October with us nothing burger surprise. Add to that the spreading of propaganda by a propaganda expert, Russia, and you have a perfect storm.

Despite Trump's actions and messages, he performed better with women and with minorities than the previous republican candidate. So, not saying race was not a factor, but bear in mind that Trump got more of the Hispanic vote than his predecessor did. If it was all about race, that would not have happened.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,345
15,156
136
Despite Trump's actions and messages, he performed better with women and with minorities than the previous republican candidate. So, not saying race was not a factor, but bear in mind that Trump got more of the Hispanic vote than his predecessor did. If it was all about race, that would not have happened.

Yeah he got a couple of percentage points higher than his predecessors but overall he was spanked by Hillary.

I didn't say it was all about race, I said race was a factor and it was.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Yes, let’s talk about Bill Clinton. When Democrats nominated and voted for him there was nothing even remotely close to what was known about Trump when Republicans voted for him. What you had with Clinton was a sexual harassment lawsuit brought by Paula Jones, enlisting right wing media to help her. (A lawsuit she lost in basically every court, btw) What we had with Trump was him stating on tape that he enjoyed sexually assaulting women, something that was enabled by his celebrity.

In one case you had a ‘he said, she said’ court case. In the other you had a public admission of serial sex crimes. On what planet are those even remotely the same. Why would anyone even try to make that claim?



Actions definitely speak larger than words. It’s why Republicans actually going out and voting for that guy says everything about how much they care. (Zero)



Huh? I don’t care about the sexual harassment things in particular, I’m saying the false equivalence that you’re engaging in here is part of a deep sickness in our country. If we can’t even admit that one party embracing someone who brags about serial sexual assault is worse than another where one particular official doesn’t condemn a shitty donor fast enough then there’s no point in rational discourse anymore because facts mean nothing.

Don’t you see that the worst actors are counting on people like you to whitewash their actions?
Bill Clinton's actions as a womanizer extend well beyond "he said she said". I see very little difference in the character of Trump, Bill Clinton and Weinstein when it comes to the treatment of women. The only distinction is Trump getting caught on tape vocalizing an attitude that Clinton and Weinstein demonstrated almost equivalently in their behavior.

You say I am white washing Trump. I would say you are amplifying Trump while giving a pass to Clinton and Weinstein.

This ties to my earlier point on why political correctness is hurting Democrats. You can't be the thought police party of social justice when you have leaders and donors violating the very values you stand for.

Is Trump the worst of the three? Absolutely. But that doesn't make Clinton or Weinstein saints on the topic of womanizing.

Facts mean everything. The fact is that Trump, Clinton and Weinstein abused positions of power in the mistreatment of women. Its a semantics game to say who is the worst.

The worst actor won because others were too busy making excuses for the bad actors.
 
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Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,726
2,501
126
It is incredibly ironic that the righties always blast others for being PC when so-called conservatives are the most rigid and demanding of compliance of all. Some examples:

-the so-called war on Christmas whereby saying anything but "Merry Christmas" is totally unacceptable

-the current tempest in a teapot about knelling during the pledge of allegiance, whereby an alternative show of respect is anathema
 

Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
202
106
-the so-called war on Christmas whereby saying anything but "Merry Christmas" is totally unacceptable

Huh? That has nothing to do with conservatives as far as I know. They are the ones that actually do not like the separation of church and state (for the most part), so if anything, I imagine that conservatives would be wanting to wish everyone Merry Christmas no matter what their religion is.
 
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