Did the left lose election after election after election because of being overly PC?

[Snarf Snarf]

The current obsession with fighting over racial, gender and social issues is becoming a fault for the Democratic party yes. They make heated talking points, and they have merit in their arguments with regards to equality and the lack of it in America. The conversation of difficult things is necessary for progress, but the left has been pretty void of any form of policy to make their conversations or talking points become reality.

If Democrats want to win a major office again in the near future they need to start getting a platform that doesn't alienate their own members, and fire up the right at the same time. Their constant whining about Trump and his rhetoric is almost as childish as he is to a certain extent. There are in my opinion 3 major issues in this country that have a profound effect on the citizens of this country way more than any PC campaign. Those are health care reform, immigration reform, and foreign policy (ending the failing war on terror and ceasing interventionist policy abroad). These 3 things effect the lives of almost every citizen in this country, and if they can start putting together a tangible platform for 2020 that hits all 3 of those points with actual legislation Democrats will win more swing voters than the vitriolic right can muster up.

From my interactions with people I have certainly noticed a whole lot more progressives that didn't vote in protest than I have met moderates who avoided Hilary. This probably has more to do with me being a millennial so my age range tends to lean hard left, but at least half of the friends I've talked to about the election didn't bother voting (Democrats in Texas often use this as an excuse since it's a "Red" state). Things that would get more progressive young people to vote include tuition assistance, student loan debt relief programs, and increased funding for local transit improvements in metro areas.

 

[hal2kilo]

Anyone who is tempted to take anything Bill Maher says seriously should read this.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/artic...maher-lost-his-teeth-and-became-a-parrot.html

I miss Bill Hicks.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Well, this is an online forum where rules of decorum often don't apply. If you want a centrist-left view of the world go look for Rogan, Sam Harris, or even some of Hitchens old stuff (obviously no new stuff). I most closely identify with these guys and they are often critical of the left's hypocrisy on some issues even though they are in agreement on most things (the misguided PC of some ultra-left kids included).



He is attacked by the left for the right reasons. What's frustrating for a moderate like myself, and a lot on the left, is that the right isn't attacking him for undermining those principles they claim makes them conservatives to begin with. The "anti-government" and "pro-civil liberties" schtick that the right usually proclaims as its own has no clothes. Turns out he's just a dangerous authoritarian nationalist. I can respect some big C conservatives or big L libertarians such as Buckley Jr, Friedman, or even Stossel or Kristol (Kristol had a pretty awesome tweet the other day btw, telling Pence if he wanted to avoid company with those that disrespect American troops he should start with the oval office). I don't always agree with these people, but I don't suspect they seek to oppress me. But they are also, in some ways, responsible for the hijacked modern conservatives who are nothing but populist fascists. These are people that can't be debated with and are likely lost in the welter of bruised pride (to kinda steal a phrase from Arundhati Roy). The faces of modern conservatism are often liars, hypocrites, or idiots and this is exemplified by the new commander in chief. There's just nothing redeeming on that side of the aisle anymore.

I'm a huge fan of Hitchens (and the Hitchslap videos on Youtube!), Sam Harris, and the like. I have Sam Harrin on my FB feed in fact. I'm a non-believer that thinks the right pushes their religious views on to the rest of us, and I hate that. I'm very Libertarian in my views. Because I don't subscribe to either party, I think I continually see the worst in whoever loses and it makes them look terrible, until there is another switch. The right was over the top with their Barrack "Huissan" Obama, he's taking our guns, he's not going to relinquish power, he's a Muslim that hates America, etc. etc. And then the left was soundly defeated in the last election, and now they're trying to up the bar in throwing tantrums.

I guess I don't see Trump in as negative of a light as you, though. There are plenty of legit concerns, but much like what the right did to Obama before, I see the left doing today, but maybe even worse.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Anyone who is tempted to take anything Bill Maher says seriously should read this.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/artic...maher-lost-his-teeth-and-became-a-parrot.html

I disagree with plenty of what he is for, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point here.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm a huge fan of Hitchens (and the Hitchslap videos on Youtube!), Sam Harris, and the like. I have Sam Harrin on my FB feed in fact. I'm a non-believer that thinks the right pushes their religious views on to the rest of us, and I hate that. I'm very Libertarian in my views. Because I don't subscribe to either party, I think I continually see the worst in whoever loses and it makes them look terrible, until there is another switch. The right was over the top with their Barrack "Huissan" Obama, he's taking our guns, he's not going to relinquish power, he's a Muslim that hates America, etc. etc. And then the left was soundly defeated in the last election, and now they're trying to up the bar in throwing tantrums.

I guess I don't see Trump in as negative of a light as you, though. There are plenty of legit concerns, but much like what the right did to Obama before, I see the left doing today, but maybe even worse.

Can you specify what you saw the right doing to Obama before and what you see the left doing to Trump now? I think that might help us understand better how anyone could see a similarity.

 

[dank69]

...

I guess I don't see Trump in as negative of a light as you...

Hence my conclusion that you are genuinely retarded. I don't attack Trump because he is a Republican. I attack Trump because he is also a genuine retard. If you can't see how much of a bumbling moron he is, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you are equally stupid.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Can you specify what you saw the right doing to Obama before and what you see the left doing to Trump now? I think that might help us understand better how anyone could see a similarity.

The exaggerations, the attacks based on half truths (or just plain lies), fear mongering is big with both sides (Obama taking over and not relinquishing power via Jade Helm, Trump the white power fascist), the political witch hunts (Hillary and email, Trump and the Russians). Losing brings out the worst in both sides, and today it seems to me the left is upping the bar, now with violent protests for losing a long standing democratic process that will be held again in a few years.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Hence my conclusion that you are genuinely retarded. I don't attack Trump because he is a Republican. I attack Trump because he is also a genuine retard. If you can't see how much of a bumbling moron he is, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you are equally stupid.

I have a different perspective, on with the attacks.

 

[BigDH01]

I guess I don't see Trump in as negative of a light as you, though. There are plenty of legit concerns, but much like what the right did to Obama before, I see the left doing today, but maybe even worse.

I don't watch the news, I came to this conclusion looking at Trump's own statements and the statements of his acolytes. Obama will go down in history as a solidly average president. He wasn't great, he wasn't bad. His primary legacy will be a healthcare bill that resulted in a failing universal healthcare program. However, for the most part, you could count on him to present a calm and collected persona when addressed internal and external actors. Trump is the exact opposite. Too incompetent so far to enact any major legislation and always presenting the worst face of our country. His public outbursts and attacks on average Americans ("sons of bitches"... really?) are dangerous though in their seemingly idiotic execution. He's stroking the real modus operandi of the republican party, authoritarianism. That's the real danger of Trump. Reminds me of a good quote of how I would describe Trump's relationship with big C conservatives, "Like an apple on the Dead Sea's shore, ashes to the taste."

 

[dank69]

I have a different perspective, on with the attacks.

The important thing is that you dodged my legitimate question. Carry on, retard.

 

[ivwshane]

The current obsession with fighting over racial, gender and social issues is becoming a fault for the Democratic party yes. They make heated talking points, and they have merit in their arguments with regards to equality and the lack of it in America. The conversation of difficult things is necessary for progress, but the left has been pretty void of any form of policy to make their conversations or talking points become reality.

If Democrats want to win a major office again in the near future they need to start getting a platform that doesn't alienate their own members, and fire up the right at the same time. Their constant whining about Trump and his rhetoric is almost as childish as he is to a certain extent. There are in my opinion 3 major issues in this country that have a profound effect on the citizens of this country way more than any PC campaign. Those are health care reform, immigration reform, and foreign policy (ending the failing war on terror and ceasing interventionist policy abroad). These 3 things effect the lives of almost every citizen in this country, and if they can start putting together a tangible platform for 2020 that hits all 3 of those points with actual legislation Democrats will win more swing voters than the vitriolic right can muster up.

From my interactions with people I have certainly noticed a whole lot more progressives that didn't vote in protest than I have met moderates who avoided Hilary. This probably has more to do with me being a millennial so my age range tends to lean hard left, but at least half of the friends I've talked to about the election didn't bother voting (Democrats in Texas often use this as an excuse since it's a "Red" state). Things that would get more progressive young people to vote include tuition assistance, student loan debt relief programs, and increased funding for local transit improvements in metro areas.

Just a point of fact but Democrats actually have policies, both talked about and either implemented or tried to be implemented. See the ACA, plus a willingness to fix is issues even if that means working with Republicans, see the immigration reform bill that was passed under Democratic control of the senate in 2013 that was killed in the house by Republicans, see Democrats and their willingness to talk to and negotiate with "enemies" (such as the Iran nuclear deal) and the TPP.

So Democrats are doing exactly what you'd wish they would do. The problem, as your post so clearly illustrates, is that the Democrats clearly either don't have a good message or they aren't good at getting their messaging out to those that need to see it (like you).

I'm curious though, where do you get your news from? Facebook? Other social media? News papers? Online news? TV? News aggregate websites/apps? From your peers?

 

[dank69]

Just a point of fact but Democrats actually have policies, both talked about and either implemented or tried to be implemented. See the ACA, plus a willingness to fix is issues even if that means working with Republicans, see the immigration reform bill that was passed under Democratic control of the senate in 2013 that was killed in the house by Republicans, see Democrats and their willingness to talk to and negotiate with "enemies" (such as the Iran nuclear deal) and the TPP.

So Democrats are doing exactly what you'd wish they would do. The problem, as your post so clearly illustrates, is that the Democrats clearly either don't have a good message or they aren't good at getting their messaging out to those that need to see it (like you).

I'm curious though, where do you get your news from? Facebook? Other social media? News papers? Online news? TV? News aggregate websites/apps? From your peers?

From the same place RetardSpyder gets his news: his colon.

 

[SlowSpyder]

From the same place RetardSpyder gets his news: his colon.

The important thing is that you dodged my legitimate question. Carry on, retard.

Yea, I dodged your question... I mean, why wouldn't I care to converse with you?

 

[dank69]

Yea, I dodged your question... I mean, why wouldn't I care to converse with you?

Because you might not be able to deny how retarded you are if you did?

 

[ivwshane]

Yea, I dodged your question... I mean, why wouldn't I care to converse with you?

Of course you wouldn't. Most people who live in a bubble don't like to be questioned or acknowledge things that might hurt their bubble. As an example, you just listed a set of false equivalencies to reinforce that bubble.

 

[fskimospy]

The exaggerations, the attacks based on half truths (or just plain lies), fear mongering is big with both sides (Obama taking over and not relinquishing power via Jade Helm, Trump the white power fascist)

It seems very strange to equate the two considering the Jade Helm thing was always an insane conspiracy theory and just today (or yesterday) Trump said that news organizations critical of him should potentially lose their license to broadcast.

In every case there's always going to be some weird conspiracy theories going around but I would hope that everyone could agree that Trump has done far, FAR more to invite valid criticism of himself than Obama ever did.

the political witch hunts (Hillary and email, Trump and the Russians). Losing brings out the worst in both sides, and today it seems to me the left is upping the bar, now with violent protests for losing a long standing democratic process that will be held again in a few years.

How is the investigation into the Trump campaign's possible ties to the Russians a witch hunt? If anything wouldn't you agree that Congress has shown shocking indifference to the fact that Trump's entire senior staff met with people connected to Russian intelligence to get dirt on their political opponents and then lied about it?

 

[SlowSpyder]

Of course you wouldn't. Most people who live in a bubble don't like to be questioned or acknowledge things that might hurt their bubble. As an example, you just listed a set of false equivalencies to reinforce that bubble.

I didn't even see the question by him to be honest. I went back, "what is the leftist vision"? Why even ask? Do I really need to answer this? The right creates a vision of stereotypes that becomes the left to them, the left does the same to the right.

As an example, I have a young cousin, truck guy, lives in a small town in the middle of nowhere. As of late he is hardcore right, the things he posts on FB, just demonizes anything and anyone on the left. It is the very fringe of the left that he is looking at, the extreme, but in his mind that represent the left largely on the whole. I'm saying both sides do this, create exaggerated views of what the other side wants and is about, then fights that caricature.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

From the same place RetardSpyder gets his news: his colon.

I don't even know why I come here. 90% of the posts in this forum are the same 5 nazis and 50 marxists lobbing this useless shit at each other. It's funny because every once in a while a semi-political post pops up in OT with an entirely different crowd responding and a few insightful posts actually manage to form.

 

[vi edit]

I didn't even see the question by him to be honest. I went back, "what is the leftist vision"? Why even ask? Do I really need to answer this? The right creates a vision of stereotypes that becomes the left to them, the left does the same to the right.

As an example, I have a young cousin, truck guy, lives in a small town in the middle of nowhere. As of late he is hardcore right, the things he posts on FB, just demonizes anything and anyone on the left. It is the very fringe of the left that he is looking at, the extreme, but in his mind that represent the left largely on the whole. I'm saying both sides do this, create exaggerated views of what the other side wants and is about, then fights that caricature.

It's not a perfect theory, but the horse shoe model fits that mindset. As that hyperpartisan "fringe" mindset takes over both sides start to turn closer to themselves.

 

[SlowSpyder]

It seems very strange to equate the two considering the Jade Helm thing was always an insane conspiracy theory and just today (or yesterday) Trump said that news organizations critical of him should potentially lose their license to broadcast.

In every case there's always going to be some weird conspiracy theories going around but I would hope that everyone could agree that Trump has done far, FAR more to invite valid criticism of himself than Obama ever did.[/QUOTE\

I think Trump does more to invite valid criticism. I also think the left still largely exaggerates the reality of what Trump says, what he stands for. I know legit legal American citizens of Mexican decent that were absolutely sure they were getting deported after the election, as an example.

How is the investigation into the Trump campaign's possible ties to the Russians a witch hunt? If anything wouldn't you agree that Congress has shown shocking indifference to the fact that Trump's entire senior staff met with people connected to Russian intelligence to get dirt on their political opponents and then lied about it?

Should Hillary be in jail for her email situation? Y/N I vote "N" by the way, but many on the right disagree. I hadn't seen anything that made me think Trump did anything illegal, but the left is happy to pick up and run with that the same as Hillary and email from the right.

 

[ivwshane]

I didn't even see the question by him to be honest. I went back, "what is the leftist vision"? Why even ask? Do I really need to answer this? The right creates a vision of stereotypes that becomes the left to them, the left does the same to the right.

As an example, I have a young cousin, truck guy, lives in a small town in the middle of nowhere. As of late he is hardcore right, the things he posts on FB, just demonizes anything and anyone on the left. It is the very fringe of the left that he is looking at, the extreme, but in his mind that represent the left largely on the whole. I'm saying both sides do this, create exaggerated views of what the other side wants and is about, then fights that caricature.

Yes and what you are failing to acknowledge or unable to back up, is your claim that both sides do it when in fact that is not true.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Yes and what you are failing to acknowledge or unable to back up, is your claim that both sides do it when in fact that is not true.

Of course, the left cannot do something like that, only the right...

Seen it with my own eyes.

 

[Commodus]

I'm a huge fan of Hitchens (and the Hitchslap videos on Youtube!), Sam Harris, and the like. I have Sam Harrin on my FB feed in fact. I'm a non-believer that thinks the right pushes their religious views on to the rest of us, and I hate that. I'm very Libertarian in my views. Because I don't subscribe to either party, I think I continually see the worst in whoever loses and it makes them look terrible, until there is another switch. The right was over the top with their Barrack "Huissan" Obama, he's taking our guns, he's not going to relinquish power, he's a Muslim that hates America, etc. etc. And then the left was soundly defeated in the last election, and now they're trying to up the bar in throwing tantrums.

I guess I don't see Trump in as negative of a light as you, though. There are plenty of legit concerns, but much like what the right did to Obama before, I see the left doing today, but maybe even worse.

I don't like this attempt to "both sides" the complaints.

The right, like you said, was hinging on junk conspiracy theories: Obama wasn't born in the US, Obama's a terrorist, death panels and all that. It was based more on latent (and sometimes overt) racism and the "whatever they're for we're against" mindset. To many of them, the scariest thing in the world is a black left-wing President with a foreign-sounding name.

On the left... well, a lot of the panic comes from things Trump is actually saying and doing. Stripping protections from LGBT people. Immigration bans that are really just thinly-veiled pretexts for bigotry. A disconcerting reluctance to condemn racism, including that attempt to "both sides" Charlottesville. And then there's what happened just today, where Trump was genuinely annoyed by the concept of free speech: why does the press get to write what it likes, and why can't I shut down NBC's license for daring to criticize me?

So while there is such a thing as undue panic on the left, I'd say there's much more meat to its concerns than what the right has mustered so far. If Trump could, he'd genuinely try for an autocracy that pushes women and minorities to the margins.

 

[ivwshane]

Of course, the left cannot do something like that, only the right...

Seen it with my own eyes.

We aren't talking about the fringe, we are talking about mainstream. Anyone can find anyone on the extremes saying and doing something stupid. However one doesn't have to go very far to find extremism in the Republican party.

You've seen it with your own eyes because you look for it to confirm your biases. Again, you live in a bubble.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

I'm saying both sides do this, create exaggerated views of what the other side wants and is about, then fights that caricature.

The problem is both sides also pander to the caricaturizations of themselves rather than weed them out.