Diesel Cars - am i missing something?

[Anubis]

so i'm in search of a new vehicle and due to how much I drive the more MPG it gets the better. I average 25000 or so a year. So I know diesel cars get better mileage however after doing some quick math something isn't adding up

simply going off posted EPA estimated numbers there is no way a diesel car ends up being cheaper to run then the same model running a traditional gas engine.

assuming same initial price (ignoring the fact that the diesel car often retails for more) the difference in MPG between them never seems to make up for the fact that the cost of diesel (at least where I am) is 1$ more then regular unleaded

It only ends up being 1-200$ more, however I would have thought that would not have been the case

so now im failing to see the point. unless people get radically higher MPG numbers on the diesels vs what the manufactures state


Let and old thread die in peace...

AT Moderator
Bartman39

 

[cabri]

Diesel used to be a cheaper fuel than gas. No longer.

 

[JCH13]

You're not missing much... as cabri states diesel used to be cheaper but isn't cheaper than gas anymore. Even when diesel was cheaper it only really broke even with gasoline when other costs, like purchase price, were accounted for.

Now that high-efficiency gasoline engines are nearly the same CR of diesel engines (like Mazda's skyactiv engine with 14:1 CR) gasoline/otto-cycle engines are approaching the same efficiency as diesel-cycle engines.

 

[Anubis]

humph, well I see

guess I got more options now

 

[thedarkwolf]

I scored a killer deal on my 04 TDI jetta wagon or I wouldn't have one. The one thing it has over most 40+ MPG cars is it is a big car that rides like a big car, you know it doesn't feel like an economy car. I haven't driven any of the new 40+ cars so the difference probably isn't as big anymore but compared to a prius from the same time period the jetta is way WAY nicer to drive.

 

[Anubis]

yea in 04 I can see that making a difference, now there are a good number of gas cars in the mid 30s for MPG that are not total econo boxes

 

[NutBucket]

How about this comparison:

BMW 328i xDrive vs. 328d xDrive

Price difference is $1500, EPA estimates are 22/33 and 31/43. The same is true for both sedan and wagon.

VWs aren't as easy to compare (for me) since I don't know which trim levels are comparable. From a quick glance it seems the base TDI has more stuff than the base gasoline model.

 

[SithSolo1]

EPA numbers can be deceiving, its not uncommon for a diesel to beat the highway estimates or for gas to fail to meet them. Also make sure you are comparing similarly equipped trim levels. Often diesels will come better optioned at the base trim then same trim base engine model. Eg '15 Jetta 1.8T SE ~ Jetta TDI S

Diesel made more sense when fuel prices were higher and closer together. Atm you won't recoup the difference when comparing regular to diesel. Premium might be a different story. I'd say for a car its probably not worth it anymore. Trucks are different...because Moar Torque > fuel prices if towing often

Also a handy calculator
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/savemoney.shtml
Click "Use City and Highway" option

If you do mainly city driving look at hybrids.

 

[NutBucket]

Did you not read my post? At least the starting models for BMW are similarly equipped....everything is an option LOL.

 

[Anubis]

EPA numbers can be deceiving, its not uncommon for a diesel to beat the highway estimates or for gas to fail to meet them. Also make sure you are comparing similarly equipped trim levels. Often diesels will come better optioned at the base trim then same trim base engine model. Eg '15 Jetta 1.8T SE ~ Jetta TDI S

Diesel made more sense when fuel prices were higher and closer together. Atm you won't recoup the difference when comparing regular to diesel. Premium might be a different story. I'd say for a car its probably not worth it anymore. Trucks are different...because Moar Torque > fuel prices if towing often

Also a handy calculator
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/savemoney.shtml
Click "Use City and Highway" option

If you do mainly city driving look at hybrids.

my driving is 90% highway
actually 10% city may be pushing it, its more like 10% not highway but not anywhere close to "city"

the compare tool on VWs site makes it pretty easy to see which compare. the Base TDI is someplace between the S and SE

using VW for an example and assuming same trim levels the TDI would have to beat its EPA estimate by 8 MPG to be cheaper vs the normal one, or keep a ~15 MPG advantage over the non TDI depending on where real numbers fall

 

[cbrunny]

For me, my Diesel Cruze costs about $90 less a month all in (payments, gas, etc.) than an equal trimmed Regular. The more you drive, the better it is. I do 120km/day minimum in my commute alone.

To be fair though, when i did the math to get the $90 figure, gas was still $1.30/L. Right now it's $1.08/L in my city, which probably gives the Diesel a slight edge.

 

[skyking]

Diesels do get better than EPA numbers.
Browse fuelly to see what people really get.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/

Our beetles for example get ~46 in mixed driving, and the epa numbers were 35/44
Freeway is closer to 49. That's driving at 70+ in a car with terrible aerodynamics.
The real sleepers are Passats with the 6 speed manual transmission. They regularly get high 40s and low 50s, and they are huge in comparison to anything else.
If you truly do that much freeway think hard about a manual transmission.

 

[Anubis]

If you truly do that much freeway think hard about a manual transmission.

I truly do, 100 miles 5 days a week round trip for work
and yes my next car will be a manual regardless of what car it ends up being

and looking and fuelly the average for the center of the curve for the diesel passats is 41, unless im filtering that totally wrong

 

[NutBucket]

That doesn't add up to me. I mean, highway fuel economy should be all about gearing. What difference should the transmission make? For our Forester, the CVT has a higher "top gear" than the manual and as such gets noticeably better highway fuel economy.

 

[MagickMan]

For a work vehicle, or anything that does much towing, nothing matches the low-end torque of a diesel (except electric, and there are no decent choices there yet).

 

[JCH13]

That doesn't add up to me. I mean, highway fuel economy should be all about gearing. What difference should the transmission make? For our Forester, the CVT has a higher "top gear" than the manual and as such gets noticeably better highway fuel economy.

Think about what you just said...

Typically 6spd transmissions have a better (lower reduction) top gear than their 5spd and fewer counter-parts.

 

[NutBucket]

It means it depends completely on what ratios the manufacturer has chosen to implement for each transmission.

 

[skyking]

I truly do, 100 miles 5 days a week round trip for work
and yes my next car will be a manual regardless of what car it ends up being

and looking and fuelly the average for the center of the curve for the diesel passats is 41, unless im filtering that totally wrong

Fuelly is a flawed site. Instead of making the poster choose transmission, they let that detail go. You have to look for cars with 6MT in some of the details. When you find one that is called out by the owner as a 6MT, these are the typical results.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/passat/2013/PSD1/173333
44,000 miles with a 50+ average.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/passat/2013/zaphod99/238509
This one is just under 42 with 50% city driving or more on each tank.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/passat/2013/DasAuto2013/203512

Another one with 50% highway and 46+ MPG.

The DSG transmission is really slick, but it robs MPGs. Those cars drag the curve down, and the 6 MT is a very small percentage of the passats.

 

[Ramses]

One of the lesser known advantages of a diesel, is you can beat the ever loving crap out of them, and still get good MPG. My experience and observation is you can kill the MPG on a gasser if you drive it hard. Diesels don't seem to care nearly as much.

It really isn't nearly as good a deal as it used to be with the price of diesel these days from a purely economical standpoint, but they have a certain charm.

 

[exar333]

One of the lesser known advantages of a diesel, is you can beat the ever loving crap out of them, and still get good MPG. My experience and observation is you can kill the MPG on a gasser if you drive it hard. Diesels don't seem to care nearly as much.

It really isn't nearly as good a deal as it used to be with the price of diesel these days from a purely economical standpoint, but they have a certain charm.

This.

Generally, most well-built diesel engines will also have a longer-life vs. gasoline engines as well. They take longer to break-in, but (well cared for) should last a long, long time.

 

[draknon]

Gasoline is extremely cheap right now which makes diesel look less appealing. Jalopnik had an article the other day on the good deals currently available on diesels because of the price difference in fuel.

http://carbuying.jalopnik.com/you-can-get-an-insane-deal-on-a-diesel-car-right-now-th-1686954874

 

[Ramses]

Market is pretty fickle about that stuff, next time gas goes up or smells like it might go up diesel car prices will shoot up. Buddy of mine bought a Cayenne diesel the other month for his wife, you can barely tell it's a diesel. Pretty impressive stuff.

 

[Anubis]

yea the more I think about it Diesel prob does make more sense in the long run
prob start looking for a deal on a Jetta, I don't need the space of the Passat

 

[cbrunny]

As someone who has a Cruze Diesel, they're worth checking out too.

 

[Anubis]

As someone who has a Cruze Diesel, they're worth checking out too.

if they only came with a manual trans.....
but yea they are solid cars