Diesel Cars - am i missing something?

[Zargon]

don't forget to also check the hp/tw # of gas vs diesels in the cars you look at

 

[Anubis]

hp/tw #?

hourse power/torque?

im a total car buying noob. only ever owned 3 of them and they were all private purchases from fam friends

 

[cbrunny]

ah yeah manual transmission... well, best of luck. I think diesel is definitely the way to go right now. I'd do it again, even with gas prices where they are.

 

[NutBucket]

Market is pretty fickle about that stuff, next time gas goes up or smells like it might go up diesel car prices will shoot up. Buddy of mine bought a Cayenne diesel the other month for his wife, you can barely tell it's a diesel. Pretty impressive stuff.

Ignoring the recent CHEAP gas prices in SoCal, now diesel has been consistently cheaper than even regular. Just an hour ago a station had diesel at $3.01 and 87 was about 40 cents higher.

 

[Anubis]

Ignoring the recent CHEAP gas prices in SoCal, now diesel has been consistently cheaper than even regular. Just an hour ago a station had diesel at $3.01 and 87 was about 40 cents higher.

yea its the total opposite of that in NY

where 87 is ~2.50 and Diesel is 3.40

 

[cbrunny]

In my area, Diesel is 4.73/gal, 87 is 3.97/gal. But Canada, so its 3.81 USD/gal and 3.20 USD/gal.

 

[LTC8K6]

Ignoring the recent CHEAP gas prices in SoCal, now diesel has been consistently cheaper than even regular. Just an hour ago a station had diesel at $3.01 and 87 was about 40 cents higher.

California is a captive market, though.

I wonder if that refinery incident has artificially inflated gasoline prices above diesel prices?

The EPA seems to dislike diesel fueled passenger vehicles though.

I wonder how much of a future diesel fuel actually has in passenger cars in the US?

 

[Zargon]

hp/tw #?

hourse power/torque?

im a total car buying noob. only ever owned 3 of them and they were all private purchases from fam friends

yeah tw was a typo, sorry

 

[NutBucket]

California is a captive market, though.

I wonder if that refinery incident has artificially inflated gasoline prices above diesel prices?

The EPA seems to dislike diesel fueled passenger vehicles though.

I wonder how much of a future diesel fuel actually has in passenger cars in the US?

No, it had been like that for quite a while before the glut of cheap oil drove gas prices way down. Diesel didn't drop as much.

 

[cbrunny]

Didnt help that winter hit and Diesel usually goes up a bit at the start of winter months.

 

[Ramses]

Years ago, like twelve, maybe even fifteen, diesel was like clockwork twenty cents under regular unleaded. And it would rise and fall slower too, few days to a week behind.
Sometime, I think I was in a gasser and missed it, fuel prices rocketed up like crazy, and diesel never came back down. This is one of those ways in which consumers get bent over and a lot of people know it, but nobody does anything about it I guess. Now it seems to ride about what mid grade unleaded does, or more, most of the time. It's only been in the pretty recent past that there was much of a selection of gas engine cars that would honestly get diesel like 40+ mpg consistently without driving like there was an eggshell under the pedal (before someone goofball invented the term hypermileing), so it wasn't a bad deal to have a little diesel of some sort and put ones foot on the floor at will with little worry about fuel use. There are still some amazingly tiny diesel cars that get crazy MPG, like regular 50+, in europe but they never bring them here. Crash test, smog regs, americans wanting SUV's, I dunno. But they have existed for a good while. The TDI was even mighty obscure for a long time, and nobody could afford the Mercedes diesels that had to worry about fuel cost. BMW had a 5 series diesel years ago that was surprisingly nice, Lincoln used the same motor but I've never seen one running.

 

[skyking]

One of the lesser known advantages of a diesel, is you can beat the ever loving crap out of them, and still get good MPG. My experience and observation is you can kill the MPG on a gasser if you drive it hard. Diesels don't seem to care nearly as much.

It really isn't nearly as good a deal as it used to be with the price of diesel these days from a purely economical standpoint, but they have a certain charm.

I do beat my diesels whenever I want, and there is little penalty (except speeding tickets)

 

[DrPizza]

I had to drive a diesel years ago for work vehicle. It was a pain in the neck in the winter, with the diesel wanting to gel up. Is that still a problem with NY's recent round of -20 degree F temperatures?

 

[Ramses]

I had to drive a diesel years ago for work vehicle. It was a pain in the neck in the winter, with the diesel wanting to gel up. Is that still a problem with NY's recent round of -20 degree F temperatures?

Depends on the fuel, filling stations are supposed to have additives to keep it from happening, and savvy users will add their own as well. All in all it shouldn't be an issue. Newer models have fuel heaters, and there are block/engine heaters and such available. A remote starter was my favorite in winter. They run diesels in the most brutal cold parts of Alaska and Canada fwiw but they require some prep work.

 

[tortillasoup]

A lot of diesel vehicles especially Volkswagen have issues with reliability. Fuel pump is stupid expensive repair like $6000 expensive that happens way too early in its life. If you want a fuel efficient car that has high reliability, get a Toyota hybrid. What possible benefit could you get out of a Jetta Diesel when you can get a Camry hybrid that is faster, more reliable, more comfortable, uses less expensive fuel, has no urea treatment needed, etc. If you want Toyota reliability but under a different brand, you could also get a Nissan Altima hybrid which is basically a 1st generation Camry Hybrid.

Jetta Diesel has acceleration and Slalom numbers similar to a freaking Prius but without the fuel economy or reliability benefit of said Prius... Meanwhile, a Camry hybrid does 0-60 in 8s, is quite comfortable, fairly roomy and very reliable. Also the fuel economy is very good in the Camry Hybrids with 50mpg on the highway easily achievable.


If you want a super fuel efficient econobox with a manual transmission, you could get an '03'-'05 Civic Hybrid (though be prepared to get a refurb battery which isn't THAT expensive) or a '00-'06 Honda Insight but again be prepared to needing to refurbish that hybrid battery. The NIMH batteries in the Honda Hybrids don't last as long due to Honda utilizing smaller batteries (900WH) with deeper depth charges and discharges, wearing out the battery prematurely while Toyota used larger batteries (1300WH), therefore less depth of charge/discharge but both companies still utilized the same amount of energy, around (600WH).

The one thing that I do like about Honda's Hybrids is that if the battery goes, the car is still drivable while on the Toyota, the battery is very integral with the car and absolutely necessary.

 

[Ramses]

All vehicles have issues with reliability. That's why I've spent the last twenty years taking money to fix them or for parts. No idea what 6k fuel pump you're talking about, as of the PD motor on the late A4 there is no engine mounted injection pump, the in tank pump last I looked was the same Bosch plastic crap as any other European car.

The possibility of modification and improvement alone would make me buy a diesel over an electric appliance. Big injectors, cranked up boost and a remapped dme are good fun.

 

[thedarkwolf]

He is talking about HPFP failures on the newer TDIs which basically destroys the whole fuel system if it happens. BMW diesel use it too. It is a pretty damn rare problem but can ruin your day if it does.

 

[Anubis]

all cars have potential issues, ive driven a Prius and i didn't like it + not great in snow
closest VW dealer is closer then closest Honda dealer so there is also that

 

[Ramses]

He is talking about HPFP failures on the newer TDIs which basically destroys the whole fuel system if it happens. BMW diesel use it too. It is a pretty damn rare problem but can ruin your day if it does.

That I could believe.

 

[Anubis]

im aware of the HPFP issue but its a tiny one % wise. yes it would suck to be part of the sub 1% of cars it happens to but its not worth worrying about

 

[Ramses]

Have the tuner crowd removed that stuff in software yet? It used to be pretty trivial to remove EGR on the older TDI's, which was another amazingly stupid device to have on a diesel.

 

[Anubis]

I believe you can chip around it if you want to remove it and not have the software flake out

 

[tortillasoup]

all cars have potential issues, ive driven a Prius and i didn't like it + not great in snow
closest VW dealer is closer then closest Honda dealer so there is also that

Tires, the tires on the Prius are shit in snow. Put proper set of snow tires and the Prius is very good in snow. Also I didn't specify a Prius for you, I said Camry but the same still applies, if you're in the snow, you have to use snow tires.

 

[marincounty]

One of the lesser known advantages of a diesel, is you can beat the ever loving crap out of them, and still get good MPG. My experience and observation is you can kill the MPG on a gasser if you drive it hard. Diesels don't seem to care nearly as much.

It really isn't nearly as good a deal as it used to be with the price of diesel these days from a purely economical standpoint, but they have a certain charm.

Yeah, if you don't care about air pollution. Diesel soot causes lung disease and cancer.
Regular 4-cycle engines have been cleaned up over the years.
Diesels are a threat to human health-quit buying them.

 

[Ramses]

Yeah, if you don't care about air pollution. Diesel soot causes lung disease and cancer.
Regular 4-cycle engines have been cleaned up over the years.
Diesels are a threat to human health-quit buying them.

This is a common misunderstanding and it's not surprising why one would think this unless they look hard at some real data (that is from a relatively unbiased source)

Diesels are traditionally high in nitrogen compounds and particulate matter though they emit lower amounts of carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and carbon dioxide than gassers. Those latter ones are the big bads for global warming.

Great strides have been made in cleaning up diesel exhaust, though passenger car diesel use in the US is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction compared to basically our entire infrastructure as far as commerce, construction, defense and travel being all primarily diesel. Trucks and trains and such are a lot cleaner than they used to be as well thankfully, since they ain't going away anytime soon.

While progress hasn't stood still with gassers, or hybrids/electric, it still takes less energy to refine diesel which is no small shakes in/to the US, and creating batteries or fuel cells (or newer more efficient gas cars in general) takes an absolute ton. Shiny new efficient low pollution gassers that people actually WANT to drive don't just spring out of thin air.

Europe has been wrestling with this for years as they have had more strict gasser emissions and less strict diesel emission requirements, and have had a whooooloe lot more passenger diesel vehicles, I suspect largely due to the superior longevity and MPG with the fuel prices they have there.

I'm sympathetic to folks that are especially sensitive to diesel fumes, but overall it's pretty well tit for tat far as I can tell. If one wants to make things better, encourage someone to invent better batteries. If you can provide me with a reasonably priced battery the size/weight of a tank of fuel that will provide reasonable power to cover the kinda miles a 40mpg fuel engine will cover on a tank/charge, I'll be first in line to start converting old cars over. We've had the motors and control systems for years, just waiting on reasonable power. I've got ten or fifteen Porsche Boxsters that are hopelessly upside down financially with bad motors that are just screaming for electric power...