Diesel Cars - am i missing something?

[tortillasoup]

Ramses, that all sounds well and good but at the end of the day, diesel vehicles are dirtier and produce more emissions than hybrid vehicles. The best diesel cars in America are Tier 2 Bin 5 which is the dirtiest emission standard allowed while the Prius is Tier 2 Bin 3. Prius gets free pass for congestion charges in London much like EV vehicles do as well.

You'll know electric vehicles are better for the environment when they're less expensive to purchase and operate. The general rule is that anything that is very expensive either has a lot of R&D that is attempting to be recouped, used an enormous amount of energy in its creation and therefore high carbon footprint or has a lot of human labor involved (indirectly high carbon footprint)....for the most part.

Not all but a lot of Hybrid vehicles are economical to own and operate and certainly beat diesel when it comes to emissions and reliability. Diesels haven't been reliable since pre 2007 model year which is when the stricter emission standard and low sulfur standard kicked in.

I recommend Toyota's hybrids or at least hybrids based upon that design because it appears to be the most efficient and reliable design made thus far. I do love Honda's IMA technology which allowed a manual transmission hybrid but otherwise eh...

 

[Ramses]

If a person is happy with a hybrid then good for them, go forth and enjoy.
And as soon as someone can supply me better battery tech I'll be thrilled to retrofit
older vehicles with straight electric. Until then, cost too much and gives too little for me to be interested.

And frankly they aren't supposed to be as clean as a prius, or a hybrid, or even an equivalent gasser.
It's a diesel. It'll run on damn near any oil you shove in the tank. They have their own charm and attributes (unless you screw them up enough I guess).
Not unlike the rotary engine, incredibly character-full machine, that eats apex seals, oil, fuel, smokes, drinks
even more fuel, and produces giddy grins chronically. It's amazing either one has been tamed as much as they have.
I would imagine that if ultimate economy and/or low emissions are the only goal then one should not buy a diesel.
Or a rotary engine. Or any number of cars. It's all about one's goals and desires I guess. I'm just impressed they have
done as well as they have with diesels. I'd never dream of putting a cat or egr or any of that foolery on one of mine, but
it's interesting and I'm glad it's out there on newer ones.




What's more important, and what makes this academic, is the tiny number of passenger diesel vehicles in operation in this country. If you want to do work on diesel emissions, look to over the road trucks and trains, construction equipment, public transit, etc. You see a lot of pubtrans on CNG and such these days which is a good thing. My father just put an LS1 with a CNG kit in an 80's Jeep pickup, great fun and killer MPG.

 

[tortillasoup]

If a person is happy with a hybrid then good for them, go forth and enjoy.
And as soon as someone can supply me better battery tech I'll be thrilled to retrofit
older vehicles with straight electric. Until then, cost too much and gives too little for me to be interested.

And frankly they aren't supposed to be as clean as a prius, or a hybrid, or even an equivalent gasser.
It's a diesel. It'll run on damn near any oil you shove in the tank. They have their own charm and attributes (unless you screw them up enough I guess).

This isn't a 1980s Mercedes Diesel we're talking about. That's a completely different animal than the Diesels of today. The Diesels of today are fragile and have tons of emissions equipment and pretty damn clean compared to stuff made a decade prior. I wouldn't dare trying to put biodiesel or vegetable oil like people have done with the older Mercedes vehicles in a newer car.



I think you seem to forget how this whole discussion started. Op wanted a fuel efficient, reliable vehicle. People here erroneously mentioned modern diesel vehicles. I pointed out that they're just not worth purchasing for a variety of reasons.

 

[Ramses]

And that they are worth it for a variety of reasons also.
If they were not, nobody would buy them. Or make them.
And not many do, which is evidence that they are not right for
many people but favored by some. This has always been the case in the US
and will likely stay that way unless gas prices go way higher than diesel.
See Fred's TDI club page for a corss-reference of owner types.

As to biodiesel, as of the PD motor in 2005 they ran bioD and well processed WVO just fine. And they were not fragile. I can't speak as to past then since I haven't spent any real time with them. VW stuff that is. There really isn't any technical reason they shouldn't though, correctly made bioD or well processed WVO is a better fuel than what passes for diesel in the US.
I can go on at length as to how people have ruined perfectly good motors with some alternative fuels, but it can be done well with some smarts applied.

I'm really not the right one to trumpet newer diesels anyway, I don't like them myself but it's not the motor, it's the rest of the cars. I've been in the automotive field for a lot of years, vintage euro cars mostly, I'm so far from a regular consumer I can't speak as to a lot of things other than technical points I'm experienced with. Hell I don't even drive anymore really, I moved to cali and bought a bunch of bicycles. My carbon footprint kicks ass these days.

The world runs on diesel. And it will for the foreseeable future.

 

[Anubis]

and an update

2013, TDI, 6MT

 

[tortillasoup]

Sorry for your loss.

 

[Ramses]

Nice car man, enjoy it. Looks good in white. If they still soot the bumper it'll be a badge of honor those in the club will recognize.

 

[skyking]

Those are very nice cars. Keep us posted on how it works out for you.

 

[LTC8K6]

I haven't seen this in a long time, but right now, diesel fuel is only about 30 cents a gallon more expensive than regular gasoline. About 15% more.

I think that's the closest I can remember around here.

 

[NutBucket]

In other news, diesel is still cheaper than regular in SoCal.

 

[LTC8K6]

In other news, diesel is still cheaper than regular in SoCal.

You mean regular is still more expensive than diesel...

 

[Ramses]

They are actually about even right now, CA isn't a very good example though(other than of what not to do, ever). At my mid-point zip in the US diesel is a bit higher than regular, ditto east cost home, but it's not enough to make a huge difference.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm in NC.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Don't know what the price differential is for cars, but for medium trucks, you'll basically never recoup the extra cost a diesel is to buy and run through fuel mileage.

Take a Ram or Ford 250, the diesel option is a good 5-7k more up front. Oil changes are around $100 bucks. You need a fuel filter more often. You need exhaust fluid (on Fords, anyway)
They are simply more expensive to buy, and more expensive to run overall. Plus, diesel typically costs more in most places, but even if it was the same or even a bit less, you'd still end up with a net loss.

Now maybe car diesels aren't as costly, but they make no sense from a financial standpoint in a medium truck.

 

[LTC8K6]

Don't know what the price differential is for cars, but for medium trucks, you'll basically never recoup the extra cost a diesel is to buy and run through fuel mileage.

Take a Ram or Ford 250, the diesel option is a good 5-7k more up front. Oil changes are around $100 bucks. You need a fuel filter more often. You need exhaust fluid (on Fords, anyway)
They are simply more expensive to buy, and more expensive to run overall. Plus, diesel typically costs more in most places, but even if it was the same or even a bit less, you'd still end up with a net loss.

Now maybe car diesels aren't as costly, but they make no sense from a financial standpoint in a medium truck.

Then why are bigger trucks almost always diesels?

I would think a medium to large truck is exactly where you would recover the cost through hauling heavier loads over more miles. Keeping the truck on duty for a long time.

A gas engine in a truck hauling any sort of loads regularly should not be able to get anywhere near the mileage of a modern diesel.

Passenger cars are where the math doesn't work so well unless you keep your car for a long time, which most people don't.

 

[NutBucket]

You buy the diesel for torque! And it definitely gets better economy when towing compared to gas. Unloaded there's not much difference realistically.

 

[tortillasoup]

You buy the diesel for torque! And it definitely gets better economy when towing compared to gas. Unloaded there's not much difference realistically.

Car does 0-60 in 7s and nothing has more torque than an electric motor like that in a hybrid or electric vehicle. Camry Hybrid would be a more economical vehicle overall to own than the Jetta.

 

[Anubis]

im not sure how you figure that given the price of even a used Camry Hybrid (same year/miles) is 10k more then what I just paid for the jetta



anyway, this is a fun thread. Drove it a bunch this weekend, its technically not legally mine yet, drives nice, and in the 80 or so miles I did I got 52 MPG which is pretty awesome IMO
gotta do paperwork today

 

[skyking]

You buy the diesel for torque! And it definitely gets better economy when towing compared to gas. Unloaded there's not much difference realistically.

fuel consumption is 40% more with a large load, gas vs diesel. If you buy a diesel truck to drive a few tools around, then you are tool as well. A gasser is the right rig for light duty. Hook it to a trailer for any significant amount of time and the diesel is far easier on the wallet.
I got better mpg towing a 10,000 pound 5th wheel than a lot of big block pickups do, empty.

 

[exar333]

The OP stated they are driving 25k/year in miles. Diesel engines last significantly longer vs. gas and this would be another great benefit. Gas is fine if you are doing 10-15k/year, because most (not all) cars are in rough shape after 15-20 years on the road. The body may rust, interior wears-out, paint starts to go, etc. In high-mileage situations though, the diesel has a huge advantage with the life of the engine itself being much greater. The diesel engine will also (in most cases) keep and retain more efficiency during it life vs. a gas engine. The properties of the diesel engine itself and the fuel lubrication all factor in.

 

[tortillasoup]

A used '13 Camry Hybrid with 34K miles is around $18K so you paid $8K??? A '12+ Camry Hybrid will last a very long time, comparable to any diesel if not better. Meanwhile with the diesel, you get to enjoy the risk of failing fuel pumps or urea or any other innumerable issues that euro vehicles will have.

 

[Ramses]

IMO, a man that is interested in a 6 speed manual diesel VW is not really likely going to be happy in a CVT hybrid camry. Not that it's a bad car or inferior (or superior), and not that there isn't some overlap in buying demographic, but there are a lot of folks this VW would appeal to that the camry would not. A large portion of those folks also probly aren't afraid of or are willing to learn about euro car BS. And there is always euro car BS. It's very seldom that a euro car, any euro car, ever, has been the appliance one from japan or such has. Vehicles are a multifaceted happening.

 

[Anubis]

A used '13 Camry Hybrid with 34K miles is around $18K so you paid $8K??? A '12+ Camry Hybrid will last a very long time, comparable to any diesel if not better. Meanwhile with the diesel, you get to enjoy the risk of failing fuel pumps or urea or any other innumerable issues that euro vehicles will have.

im seeing 26k ish for a 2013 with under 30k

so 8k ish more

http://www.cars.com/for-sale/search...=47272&mlgId=28866&searchSource=GN_REFINEMENT

 

[Ramses]

they were about the same on kbb for my zip fwiw, think the cam was a grand more. both about 18.

 

[tortillasoup]

im seeing 26k ish for a 2013 with under 30k

so 8k ish more

http://www.cars.com/for-sale/search...=47272&mlgId=28866&searchSource=GN_REFINEMENT

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...Y%7CHybrid+XLE]][]]&listingId=395147869&Log=0
That one is $19K


Here are the rest:
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...SC&startYear=2013&trim1=CAMRY|Hybrid+LE&Log=0