Different Take on Katrina Disaster -- Welfare Statism heavily responsible

[Vic]

Originally posted by: charrison
It is dependancy caused by socialism. They are waiting for the goverment to come save them.

Exactly.

 

[Smaug]

It is dependancy caused by socialism. They are waiting for the goverment to come save them.

A fundamental job of goverment is to look out for the well being of it's citizens. No sense in having a goverment that can't. If we want to spend $80+ billion a year to defend our country against terrorism with a war in Iraq (however misguided an idea that is), we damn well should be able to quickly provide help to those of our citizens who have lost EVERYTHING in a terrible disaster.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Smaug

It is dependancy caused by socialism. They are waiting for the goverment to come save them.

A fundamental job of goverment is to look out for the well being of it's citizens. No sense in having a goverment that can't. If we want to spend $80+ billion a year to defend our country against terrorism with a war in Iraq (however misguided an idea that is), we damn well should be able to quickly provide help to those of our citizens who have lost EVERYTHING in a terrible disaster.

Nice strawman.

 

[Smaug]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Smaug

It is dependancy caused by socialism. They are waiting for the goverment to come save them.

A fundamental job of goverment is to look out for the well being of it's citizens. No sense in having a goverment that can't. If we want to spend $80+ billion a year to defend our country against terrorism with a war in Iraq (however misguided an idea that is), we damn well should be able to quickly provide help to those of our citizens who have lost EVERYTHING in a terrible disaster.

Nice strawman.

It's not a strawman, I fundamentally disagree with the premise this thread was founded on, which was further espoused by this quote. There seems to be a view, which is in a way espoused by that quote, and it is also the view upon which this thread was founded on, that we can blame the victims for the goverments own ineptitude. It's not socialism to expect to be safe and secure in your own home. It's not socialism to expect the people with trucks, buses, helicopters, and large amounts of logistical support, to assist those that are in need after a particularly horrible catastrophe. It's an expectation of a goverment to provide basic safety and security to it's own people.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: charrison
That is unfortunatly, very few stories of neighbors helping neighbors in the city of new orleans.

Uhh...there are MANY stories of neighbors helping neighbors.

Watch the WDSU and WWL feeds and read the various NOLA blogs.

 

[imported_Ant]

Originally posted by: SmaugIt's not socialism to expect to be safe and secure in your own home. It's not socialism to expect the people with trucks, buses, helicopters, and large amounts of logistical support, to assist those that are in need after a particularly horrible catastrophe. It's an expectation of a goverment to provide basic safety and security to it's own people.

You need at least some form of socialism for the poor to expect any help from a government.

Capitalism at it's best means that property and money comes before the welfare of the poor person.
This is the basic premise of capitalism. People are expected to use their own initiative to get out of trouble and if possible make money out of it.
If they can't, well tough luck.
If the government of a capitalist nation sees a danger to people who are productive and required to the economy then they won't hesitate to step in and help out. To do otherwise would mean a loss to the economy in production and tax revenues which is obviously unacceptable.

A fully socialist government on the other hand would put the welfare of any person above the cost to property and money.

Most countries strike a reasonable balance although IMHO some countries have gone to far in one direction or the other.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Vic

There have been many disasters in the US, including (whether you want to believe it or not) some just as bad as what happened this week in New Orleans. But never have we seen a reaction from the people like this. Typically, Americans are famous worldwide for our ability to work together in the face of an emergency. Neighbor helping neighbor, people reaching out and helping each other. But all New Orleans wants to do is beg for help while its people rape, loot, and shoot each other and the very people being sent in to help them. Why?

You're talking racism, try this. In the words of British TV (not mine), " ...it looks like Rwanda." You think that's racist, bring it up with the world.

I beg to differ. I betcha that by the time the dust settles, this will be - by far - the worst-ever natural or man-made disaster in American history, both in terms of economic damage and lives lost, as well as in its collateral impact across the country.

As to the topic at hand, I don't really see this as a crisis bred of "welfare statism" - to me it's more about the culture of urban poverty. It's literally a state of mind.

The lion's share of the people trapped in NO have spent their entire lives in an environment in which they aren't expected to leave, to succeed, or even to live past middle age. Obviously some people transcend this, but those who don't, in my observation, develop an all-encompassing focus on the moment at hand, to the exclusion of all else. They don't really see the long view - they are focused on what's going on at the moment. This is why we've seen footage of people stealing TVs with no homes to take them to - they're not thinking that far ahead.

Is this stupid? Well, I think it is. Is it healthy? Certainly not. I don't think, however, that it's fundamentally a matter of race or welfare-state programs - it comes from a different place IMO, and it's an evolved attitude toward the world and everything in it.

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: conjur
Nope, listen to the mayor's interview (the link has been provided elsewhere).

It was most likely the crackheads/drug addicts. They were breaking into hospitals/pharmacies/drug stores/etc. to get a fix for their "jones", as he put it. They were the ones with the guns.


Here:
http://www.atypical.net/mm/nagin.mp3

Transcript:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/index.html

Don't waste your breath, Conjur. They'll never believe anything he says. He's black.

You have got to be one of the biggest ignorant, POS race-baiting dilrods in P&N. You should get a dungpile award for inciting racist lies and generalizations.

Edit: You know what? I'm sick of the blatant racism on these boards. The racists on these boards need to be called out for what they are. I'm sorry you can't take it. Racists are the biggest POS, imnsho. I'm just f'in sick of it.

I have been saying it now for almost 2 and half years. As long as its against someone black or even the "wiggers" as some say its ok. But call the clorox bleach sheets for what they really are here and they will want you banned. Its always the black persons fault.

 

[imported_Ant]

Originally posted by: Vic

Which is why it fails. Everyone knows this, some just refuse to accept it.

I'm not sure where you get the information from that socialism fails.
There are social democracies in the world today that have records as stable and successful countries.

You're not confusing Socialism and Communism are you?

 

[Zebo]

Check this out Gaza "settlers" will each get betwen $200,000 and $300,000 of your money for nice beach front houses along the med

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1081952201569_77361401

You think anyone in NO will get anything that sweet?

Our priorities in this country are so screwed up.


This guy has it right it's not socialism but just the opposite dog eat dog where no one cares about it's own citizens. Proof is it does'nt happen in the most socialistic countries in the world when under disaster as cited.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/...LAC.20050902.STORMPSYCHOLOGY02/TPStory

 

[Moonbeam]

later

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Smaug

It is dependancy caused by socialism. They are waiting for the goverment to come save them.

A fundamental job of goverment is to look out for the well being of it's citizens. No sense in having a goverment that can't. If we want to spend $80+ billion a year to defend our country against terrorism with a war in Iraq (however misguided an idea that is), we damn well should be able to quickly provide help to those of our citizens who have lost EVERYTHING in a terrible disaster.

We spend a hell of a lot more than that, defense is really around 700 billion a year when you include all associated expenses not in DOD budget..VA, FED retirement, NASA etc etc etc. Lemme see if I can find link to what that fools mission in Iraq REALLY costs us. It was around double the 200Billion cited buy CBO.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
People are desperate. I would do the exact same thing. I'd steal whatever I needed for my family and myself to survive. PERIOD.

Does that include Plasma HDTVs?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: zendari


Does that include Plasma HDTVs?

Are you capable of suspending your vicious partisanism, even for one day? Do you think what's going on in the Gulf is something to be joked about?

If you have any heart at all, please try to put a filter on the things you type - this message goes not only to you but to the trolls on both sides of the aisle here.

 

[Smaug]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Smaug

It is dependancy caused by socialism. They are waiting for the goverment to come save them.

A fundamental job of goverment is to look out for the well being of it's citizens. No sense in having a goverment that can't. If we want to spend $80+ billion a year to defend our country against terrorism with a war in Iraq (however misguided an idea that is), we damn well should be able to quickly provide help to those of our citizens who have lost EVERYTHING in a terrible disaster.

We spend a hell of a lot more than that, defense is really around 700 billion a year when you include all associated expenses not in DOD budget..VA, FED retirement, NASA etc etc etc. Lemme see if I can find link to what that fools mission in Iraq REALLY costs us. It was around double the 200Billion cited buy CBO.

I know this, the point I was simply making was that we can spend loads of money on Defense and somehow not have any.

 

[Zebo]

As a side note I think violence seems to rule America from top to bottom anyway so is this reaction really that unexpected? Collectivly we threaten nations all the time are in constant conflict around the world. Many if not most americans are overtly enthusiastic about war caring little if any for "collateral damage" MAny (most?) want to shoot looters ...talk about cruel and unusal punishment.. You reap what ye sew.

 

[Moonbeam]

Somebody asked a Bedouin what halva was. He answered experience. There was a saying in his village the there are two things in life. Dates and experience. Since he knew that what he was looking at wasn't a date he had his answer. It is the same thing with the question, What is NO after the hurricane. You see in it what you know, but you don't know anything.

The article concludes:

"The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting."

We could postulate numerous things:

The racist state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

The Capitalist state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

The outsource state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

The secular or religious state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting."
---------------

A problem I have with the notion that welfare trained dependency is responsible for looting, this waiting around for help, is that people seem to be helping themselves just fine. How did they manage to get from being given to this most ambitious state of taking? But don't let little facts get in the way of your theories.

The thing that seems to mystify the media and the world is plain and obvious to me. How is it that these people destroy and shoot the people sent to help and destroy everything around them? It is simple, they are acting out their self hate. They are getting even with us who because in our own self hate we made them feel that way. We are them and they are us. They were just able historically to collect more than their fair share.

We were murdered as dependent children and that is why we hate the welfare state, and the claims of our murders were that it would help. Beware of people you help and why you do it.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: conjur
Nope, listen to the mayor's interview (the link has been provided elsewhere).

It was most likely the crackheads/drug addicts. They were breaking into hospitals/pharmacies/drug stores/etc. to get a fix for their "jones", as he put it. They were the ones with the guns.


Here:
http://www.atypical.net/mm/nagin.mp3

Transcript:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/index.html

Don't waste your breath, Conjur. They'll never believe anything he says. He's black.

You have got to be one of the biggest ignorant, POS race-baiting dilrods in P&N. You should get a dungpile award for inciting racist lies and generalizations.

he's just summarizing the general conservative sentiment here and on OT. Do try and catch the obvious next time...

 

[Moonbeam]

Lets see? Have these people been spoiled to dependency by the lovingly over-generous, or do they have the feeling that nobody gives a sh!t about them and they had better look out for themselves any way they can, that anything is justifiable as payback for their treatment?

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Lets see? Have these people been spoiled to dependency by the lovingly over-generous, or do they have the feeling that nobody gives a sh!t about them and they had better look out for themselves any way they can, that anything is justifiable as payback for their treatment?

While no one condones looting, on the other hand, one can understand the pent-up feelings that may result from decades of repression

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Kalbi

Originally posted by: Ant

Originally posted by: Kalbi
People like this is the reason why history repeats itself.

Please explain your point.

It's scientifically proven Capitalism > Socialism.

OP - That commentary is great btw.

You can scientifically prove what makes people better humans? When did this come about? As far as I knew, only some little podunk nation around India was even trying to figure that out.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
People are desperate. I would do the exact same thing. I'd steal whatever I needed for my family and myself to survive. PERIOD.

Does that include Plasma HDTVs?

I'm not going to deny that there are some that are doing that, but the vast, VAST, VAAAAAST majority of them are getting supplies and rations.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Smaug
It's not a strawman, I fundamentally disagree with the premise this thread was founded on, which was further espoused by this quote. There seems to be a view, which is in a way espoused by that quote, and it is also the view upon which this thread was founded on, that we can blame the victims for the goverments own ineptitude. It's not socialism to expect to be safe and secure in your own home. It's not socialism to expect the people with trucks, buses, helicopters, and large amounts of logistical support, to assist those that are in need after a particularly horrible catastrophe. It's an expectation of a goverment to provide basic safety and security to it's own people.

Your entire argument collapses under the simple fact that the people ARE the government.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Smaug
It's not a strawman, I fundamentally disagree with the premise this thread was founded on, which was further espoused by this quote. There seems to be a view, which is in a way espoused by that quote, and it is also the view upon which this thread was founded on, that we can blame the victims for the goverments own ineptitude. It's not socialism to expect to be safe and secure in your own home. It's not socialism to expect the people with trucks, buses, helicopters, and large amounts of logistical support, to assist those that are in need after a particularly horrible catastrophe. It's an expectation of a goverment to provide basic safety and security to it's own people.

Your entire argument collapses under the simple fact that the people ARE the government.

In you dreams. Maybe the people who run corporate America and have bought the opinions of a majority that vote.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Smaug
It's not a strawman, I fundamentally disagree with the premise this thread was founded on, which was further espoused by this quote. There seems to be a view, which is in a way espoused by that quote, and it is also the view upon which this thread was founded on, that we can blame the victims for the goverments own ineptitude. It's not socialism to expect to be safe and secure in your own home. It's not socialism to expect the people with trucks, buses, helicopters, and large amounts of logistical support, to assist those that are in need after a particularly horrible catastrophe. It's an expectation of a goverment to provide basic safety and security to it's own people.

Your entire argument collapses under the simple fact that the people ARE the government.

In you dreams. Maybe the people who run corporate America and have bought the opinions of a majority that vote.

:roll: