Digicam battery power: NiMH vs Lithium

[Muse]

Please chime in if you know. I may be delusional, or rather not up to date on the current state of things. I used to be a NiCD guy, have transitioned to NiMH's (I have 28 Eneloop AA's, about 20 Eneloop AAA's). I have several devices that use Li-ion rechargables, but I've always been uncomfortable using them. It's because (years ago!) I heard that they have pretty limited life spans. My Eneloops are rated at 1000 or 1500 recharges, and AFAIK I don't need to baby them. No memory effect, no need to worry about discharging them completely, just top 'em up any time, no sweat. People (used to) say that Li-ion batteries only last 2-3 years in typical use. They are (were) said to last significantly longer if you...

a. Don't leave them in a fully charged state for any period of time
b. If not going to be used for some time, refrigerate them in a ~40% charged state.

Since I don't use my cell phone a lot, I try to keep it around 40% charged (and Off, because its battery runs down quickly when left on even if not used), although it does not stay in my refrigerator (!).

My camcorder batteries are in the refrigerator, I haven't used the thing in 2-3 years.

My laptop batteries are likewise in the refrigerator, since I use the AC adapters only most of the time.
- - - -
So, my dilemma is this: I want to buy my next (3rd) digicam. My first is a Samsung Digimax V3, that uses 2 AA's, and I use Eneloops in it, but the camera does quite badly with them. I never know when it will just shut down. I know that many current digicams using a couple of AA's get decent battery life. My other digicam is a Pentax K-x which uses 4 AA's, and it has terrific battery life.

Now, I'm looking at a lot of digicams, because my old Samsung V3 (8 years or so) is a very under performing P&S. Battery type is a major consideration, among others. The Canon A1300 and A1200 use 2 AA's, and this seems to be a real plus to me. The Canon ELPH's have proprietary Li-ion batteries. That isn't a show stopper for me, necessarily. They also have optical IS, probably superior video characteristics and probably significantly better lenses, however the A1300 and A1200 have optical viewfinders.

So, is my "understanding" of the NiMH vs Li-ion issues unrealistic, flat wrong? Maybe Li-ion technologies have improved. Thanks for your input!

 

[Munky]

Believe it or not, Ken Rockwell has an informative page on batteries
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/batteries.htm

I actually prefer Li-ion batteries over others.

 

[Muse]

Believe it or not, Ken Rockwell has an informative page on batteries
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/batteries.htm

I actually prefer Li-ion batteries over others.

I am skeptical about the info there on Lithium ion rechargables. He claims that they last longest when fully charged frequently. This is in contradiction to what I've been told in the past (see my last post above). His claim that Li-ion batteries don't need to be "babied" like NiMH and NiCD, is in contradiction to what I know about NiMH and Li-ion rechargables (see OP), I no longer use NiCD's. Also notable is the 2006 copyright on this page. Technologies continue to develop. I've read some other stuff online, what comes to mind immediately is the battery university site:

batteryuniversity.com

Maybe more helpful to me, actually, concerning NiMH issues certainly, is this site:

http://www.greenbatteries.com FAQS

 

[SecurityTheatre]

This is obsessive compulsive. The battery in an Elph costs about $30. Bending over backwards and scurrying off to the refrigerator every afternoon is really silly.

Lithium Ion technology has far less memory effect than either NiMH or NiCd, it has far greater charge density and storage capacity. The only major limitation of LIon batteries is that their cell voltage is 3.7v so they can't be used for things like AA batteries, but are perfect for 12v uses like cameras and laptops.

Older Lion batteries had some chemistry problems (we're talking 12-15 years ago) but these days, a laptop battery is good for years.

Yes, 2-3 years is quite accurate given the usage profile of most people. But do you actually still remember laptops that used NiMH batteries? I do. They ran about 45 minutes on battery, took 2 hours to recharge and had massive failure rates after just a year or two because running a laptop is such a demanding task for large pack batteries like that.

The bleeding edge of battery technology can be seen in things like prototype electric cars and electric airplanes, and those have ALL gone almost entirely to Lithium Polymer (a type of LIon) cells. Lithium Polymer is also what runs your iPhone, your Macbook and just about any other really high quality device I can think of.

You're seriously considering a modern digicam that uses AA batteries?!?

 

[SecurityTheatre]

To be clear, all the mumbo jumbo about refrigerators and holding charges at 40% or whatever... IF it happens to be accurate (which much of it isn't) will probably get you a 20% longer life or some other such trivial gain.

Frankly, I use devices to make my life more convienant, not less.

If that $18 cell phone battery lasts 20% less because of that, fine, I'm not willing to shut off my phone for half the day to try to squeeze that last $1.85 per year out of my investment. Seriously...

 

[Muse]

You're seriously considering a modern digicam that uses AA batteries?!?

Yes, I am. The cameras I'm considering also have a viewfinder, a feature many photogs value highly. I've always been in the habit of using one. Don't know if I would miss it if I get a camera without one. I've never owned a camera without one, but the ELPS's I'm looking at don't have one. They do have Lithium rechargables, and I've also never had a digicam that didn't use AA's.

Both my current digicams use AA's (see OP). I have 28 Eneloop AA's, they have never failed me and miraculously all seem to have identical capacities. They don't worry me. Conversely, what I have been given to understand about Li-ion batteries makes me worry... a lot! They don't like getting hot (over 85 F), they don't like being charged over 4.1v (they seem to get charged to 4.16 or higher in my chargers), they lose capacity over time, evidently at a rate much higher than NiMH's. It's these issues that motivated me to start this thread. I am not at all sure about the facts or I wouldn't have bothered.

Perhaps I will make my next digicam an ELPH with it's Li-ion. This thread is part of the decision making process. Note: My Eneloops are rated at 1500 cycles. Li-ion's are rated at 300-500 cycles, more if you adhere to favorable usage patterns (don't discharge completely in general, don't expose to higher temperatures, don't have them at high states of charge).

 

[SecurityTheatre]

This thread is part of the decision making process. Note: My Eneloops are rated at 1500 cycles. Li-ion's are rated at 300-500 cycles, more if you adhere to favorable usage patterns (don't discharge completely in general, don't expose to higher temperatures, don't have them at high states of charge).

Sorry I was grumpy earlier, but I do have to point out that Lion chemistry has about 4-5x the energy density of NiMH cells.

NiMH only has 66% discharge efficiency (vs 99% for Lithium packs) and their self-discharge rage is 3-6 times less (5% per month vs 30% per month). They can tolerate higher discharge rates (by almost 10x) and faster charging (by about 3x) without cell damage.

In addition, according to every research study I've seen, a Lithium pack vs a comparable NiMH pack will actually tolerate MORE cycles. If you put together a 95 Watt hour NiMH pack (a good laptop battery), it would be almost 5 pounds and be bigger than the laptop itself, would heat up like a space heater when discharging at the required 50 Watts and as a result would only tolerate 300 or less cycles due to the high discharge rate and heat constraints.

Bare Lion cell *should* tolerate more cycles than a comparable NiMH pack under the same conditions. I'm not sure where you got your numbers, but here is the wikipedia article with research data and numbers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_battery


But regardless, even the research in the article above is wrong and you ARE getting 500 cycles from Lion vs 1500, you're still getting the more lifetime power output per unit weight from a Lion battery and you have to charge them 3x-5x less often, they discharge less when in storage (5% per month instead of 30% per month).

On to anecdotes,

I have a huge pile of NiMH batteries as well for my flashes and things. I have a battery grip for my DSLR. It holds 8 AA NiMH cells and gets me about 400 shots using 2200mAh NiMH cells. The same grip holds two Lion packs, which make it a bit lighter and carry almost 6x the capacity combined.


Anyway, sorry for the rant, again. It's just contrary to all of the science I've ever seen and I tend to get riled up about such things.

That said, don't fret so much about the batteries, it really doesn't matter in the end, get the best camera for the money, regardless. I too appreciate the optical viewfinder. I suggest one of the Canon PowerShot range, I think cameras like the 990IS have a viewfinder and very nice quality too, with stabilization, high resolution, etc.

On the other hand, optical viewfinders in compact cameras are usually *quite* terrible in quality and are often only slightly accurate approximations of what you would see through the lens, since they're not a view through the lens itself like a SLR. If you want maximum precision in use on a small camera, the viewfinder is the way to go.

Good luck with your research.

 

[Muse]

When I think of NiMH these days I am thinking about Sanyo Eneloops, which self discharge at very slow rates, nothing like the 30%/month of non-low discharge NiMH's. Eneloops are a game changer. They maintain at least 85% after one year. It's almost not a concern. Combine that with the fact that a fully charged Lion battery isn't a good idea because of the aforementioned higher degradation rates at high states of charge. I'm not afraid to fully charge a NiMH and let it sit, an Eneloop, anyway. I don't like to do that with a Lion battery.

Yes, the energy density is greater with a Lion. But it's easier to carry spares with NiMH unless you're willing to buy an extra Lion, and of course, they do cost a lot more.

You talk a lot about laptops, cellphones, but we're discussing digicams here.

Thanks for suggesting that other camera with a viewfinder, I'll check it out.

On the other hand, optical viewfinders in compact cameras are usually *quite* terrible in quality and are often only slightly accurate approximations of what you would see through the lens, since they're not a view through the lens itself like a SLR. If you want maximum precision in use on a small camera, the viewfinder is the way to go.

Uh, I think you meant to say that the LCD display is the way to go (?).

 

[CuriousMike]

I don't know what kind of battery my Nikon D5000 has in it, but

a) it charges hella fast
b) it lasts hella long when being used
c) it lasts hella long when not being used.

It's hella awesome.

 

[Muse]

I don't know what kind of battery my Nikon D5000 has in it, but

a) it charges hella fast
b) it lasts hella long when being used
c) it lasts hella long when not being used.

It's hella awesome.

To replace it is expensive. You can't walk into your corner store and buy a battery for it. It's great today, but in a couple of years not so much. My AA's charge fast enough (and I have extras), they last hella long in my Pentax K-x, they last hella long when not being used (Eneloops). Plus my AA's are interchangeable, the battery in your D5000 is proprietary.

 

[Syborg1211]

Let's say the lithium batteries last the minimum of 300 cycles because you weren't adhering to all the crazy rules that nobody adheres to, except maybe you. You would be hard-pressed to discharge the lithium battery in a D5100 once a week even down to your 40% limit, but let's say that happens. There are 52 weeks in a year so let's say roughly that your battery dies on you in 6 years. A new D5100 battery costs ~50 bucks. Are you saying after 6 years of usage that a 50 dollar battery wasn't worth it? Are you saying, after 6 years of usage without listening to all the silly rules, it wasn't worth 50 dollars to not have to worry about that? Cut that number down to 3 years, and it's still not worth all the headaches to me.

Another thing to realize is that you are severely limiting your digicam choices by requiring that they use an aging power source. Try looking at cameras and not paying attention to what batteries they use. I highly doubt you would choose any camera that uses AA's if you pay attention to all the other specs.

Also, as other people have said, lithium batteries have a much higher power density. This means that you can just take the camera out with a fully charged lithium battery and not have to worry about running out of power, unless you're going on some super super long shoot where you're using the on-camera flash a lot. If you do the same with a AA camera, you'll probably need to carry at least an extra set of batteries, and I don't even want to think about how many batteries you would need for that super long shoot scenario.

 

[Muse]

Yes, I'm trying to assess the need to have a spare Li-ion battery. I always take spare AA's with me unless I know I won't need them. I don't use flash a lot (almost never), but anticipate doing video, maybe extended video and at least in my Pentax K-x DSLR, video is very power hungry. I think it likely that the P&S digicam I'm about to buy uses Li-ion. The ELPH's I'm looking at have super slow motion, a feature I think I might like a lot.

 

[SecurityTheatre]

To replace it is expensive. You can't walk into your corner store and buy a battery for it. It's great today, but in a couple of years not so much.

The charge capacity of the Lion pack is roughly comparable to 8AA batteries (even though it's the size of two AA batteries).

An 8-pack of Eneloops is $43.23 on Amazon Canada. At the same shop, my D700 battery is more expensive ($43.88) - Same capacity, 1/4 the size. 45 cents more expensive! Yeep!

To replace the 8-10 year old battery in my backup D70 (which is still going strong) is (apparently) $1.44 on Amazon (because that camera is so damn old, they're falling out of regular use).

But, Walmart, Target, Radio Shack and Canadian Tire all carry a compatible battery replacement, as wel as any place that sells DSLR equipment. But, you're right that you can't get one at 7-11. Of course, I've never needed to replace a Lion battery (that wasn't in a laptop) before. Walmart carries them for $49. Walmart does not carry Eneloop batteries, so it's hard to compare the price...

http://www.amazon.com/EN-EL3-Lithium.../dp/B000GHG45C

My AA's charge fast enough (and I have extras), they last hella long in my Pentax K-x,

It takes 6 or 8 AA batteries to match one of the small DSLR Lions for capacity. The DSLR battery can charge to full capacity in about 45 minutes. NiMH chemistry will be permanently damaged by charges faster than 2-4 hours.

they last hella long when not being used (Eneloops).

Regardless of capacity, most of NiMH chemistry have a 30% per month self-discharge rate, vs 5% for Lion. The eneloops also show about 5% per month self-discharge, but if you shoot often, this is no big deal, anyway. I keep mine planted on the charger.

Plus my AA's are interchangeable, the battery in your D5000 is proprietary.

This is the only plus. I do own a AA battery tray for my D700. I've only used it once and the battery life wasn't great, but it was useful in an emergency, once, in 6 years.

The Lion packs get me 1200-1500 shots. I have two and keep them planted on the charger all the time and they're ready to go, and the 8 year old pack in my D70 is still holding a charge that gets me over 1000 shots given that treatment.

*shrug*

Go with whatever you like. I think I'll leave it alone from here.

 

[Muse]

Go with whatever you like. I think I'll leave it alone from here.

I ordered a Canon ELPH 100 IS. Man, I see at Canon's website that they charge $60 for a replacement battery. Do you know how many Eneloop AA's I can buy for $60?

http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10051_10051_189734_-1

 

[Zorba]

I ordered a Canon ELPH 100 IS. Man, I see at Canon's website that they charge $60 for a replacement battery. Do you know how many Eneloop AA's I can buy for $60?

http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10051_10051_189734_-1

Adorama has them from between $9 and $39 depending if you want the generics or the canon: Link

I would recommend getting a cheap spare so if you run out in the middle of something you aren't screwed. I ran out on my D10 in the first couple of hours at Disney World , as soon as I got home I ordered a spare. My generic (I think it is the Power2000 brand) seems just as good as my Canon battery.

BTW: Running out of juice was completely my fault because I had forgotten to charge the battery and had used it a lot before hand.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

http://www.ebatts.com/canon_powershot-elph-100-hs_digital-camera_accessories.aspx Replacements for $14 (Duracell brand) and $7 (Generic)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Battery-Canon-PowerShot-ELPH-100-HS-ELPH-300-HS-/130539899296 Another generic for $7

I run generic BP-511's in my 5D and 40D. No problems at all, and I can pick them up for under $10 versus $50+ for the official Canon ones. Most of the time they will last 500 shots or so without needing to recharge. If I leave the house with a full charge then I usually will not bring a spare.

Canon P&S's are actually pretty good with the battery life. Our SD780IS (older version of the ELPH 100HS) will last at least a day's worth of casual shooting (say 200 photos, most without flash). The battery is seriously about the size of 2 CompactFlash cards stacked on top of each other.

 

[PhoenixEnigma]

I have a Pentax K100D Super (4xAA) and K10D (Li-Ion) - I've had a number of other cameras that used both AAs and proprietary Li-ion batteries, but I currently own those two, and they are probably as closely comparable as any, so that's mostly what I'll base my comparisons on.

AAs are fiddly things. I need two hands to change them, to put them in their charger, and half the time just to fish them out. They're also unfortunately reversible - it's possible to install them the wrong way. Li-ion batteries (or well designed ones, at any rate, the D-LI50 being one) have none of those problems, which I greatly appreciate when fumbling in the dark. They're also lighter, so carrying more spares is more practical (ever through a dozen AAs in your pocket?)

Both seem to last quite a while in use, though I'd give the edge to Li-ion here as well. Eneloops and first-party Pentax batteries are both enough to last a full casual day of shooting, but the AAs generally aren't up to a hard days shooting or multiple days while the Li-ions fare better (I don't trust them for 2 full days, though).

It's substantially easier to find AAs for sale in a pinch, and they come precharged. As long as you have a spare battery (or set), though, that shouldn't be an issue as long as you can recharge overnight. I suppose extended trips away from AC power might be an issue, but I have a solar charger for those instances.

Shelf life I can't particularly comment on - I top off both before I head out as a matter of course. I suspect the eneloops are better, but it's hard to be sure - and if you're really only using them every couple of months, you a) probably shouldn't be storing them in your camera anyways and b) are burning so few charge cycles it won't hurt to charge before you go.

AAs are a lot more flexible, though - Li-ion batteries tend to be good for a couple camera models and that's it, but AAs will power any camera that takes AAs, and a ton of other stuff besides. My flash takes them, you can charge a cell phone off them, my flashlight takes them, the list goes on.

I've also found off-brand AAs better than off-brand Li-ion. Neither are quite as good as brand name versions, but the AAs are usable, whereas the knockoff D-LI50s I've used are utter garbage. I've found grabbing EX or better batteries from KEH a good alternative for cheap batteries, though.

The tl;dr version, I think, is that Li-ion batteries are better batteries in my eyes, but AAs have the system advantage - a big sack of Eneloops can be a single, flexible solution to a lot battery uses. I could imagine that being very important to some people, but the ease of use of Li-ion wins out for me, personally.

 

[Muse]

Well, I already ordered my Li-ion battery Canon ELPH 100 HS, so I will finally have a digicam that doesn't accommodate AA's. One extra disadvantage to this is that I will have yet another proprietary charger to deal with. Storing and sorting all my chargers is a challenge. Aside from a few proprietary Li-ion chargers, I have quite a few AA/AAA chargers, but two of them get 99.5% of the usage, a couple of La Crosse's. There's never any need for another charger when I'm dealing with AA/AAA's.

 

[JohnnyRebel]

He claims that they last longest when fully charged frequently. This is in contradiction to what I've been told in the past

My Li-Ion batterys are usually kept in their smart-chargers and I've got batteries that go back to the old Nikon E995 circa 2002. I have the B&D VPX and Ryobi 18V, flashlights, and camera stuff. The only batteries that show a shortened charge capacity are a couple of the 10 yeard old 3rd party cheapos I bought for the E995.

JR

 

[Muse]

My Li-Ion batterys are usually kept in their smart-chargers and I've got batteries that go back to the old Nikon E995 circa 2002. I have the B&D VPX and Ryobi 18V, flashlights, and camera stuff. The only batteries that show a shortened charge capacity are a couple of the 10 yeard old 3rd party cheapos I bought for the E995.

JR

Maybe your "smart chargers" are really smart! The smart thing, if I've been informed correctly, would be to not charge them to the complete top (4.16-4.20 volts), but to make it around 4.10 volts.

I'm glad to hear these things and it was just such information I was hoping to get when I started this thread. I got some ideas some years ago that made me Li-ion shy, and my thinking is that maybe I need to get over that.