[Digital Foundry] Why DX12 is a gamechanger for PC (and AMD!)

[3DVagabond]

Is it? Did mantle work on anything but GCN hardware? Last time I checked, two things that have different functionality cant be the same thing, or even "essentially" the same thing, since DX12 works on all 3 major hardware gpus, while mantle worked on maybe 20%.

Now DX12 may be based on mantle, they may have been developed concurrently, whatever, I dont really know. And frankly, I dont really care. At least it works on AMD, intel and nVidia hardware, something which mantle did not do. If if really is that important to somehow give credit to AMD for it, fine, I dont propose to know the intimate details of what went on behind the scenes during the development of both, but maybe you do. Hell, for all I know, they could both have been under concurrent development, and AMD released mantle early because they only optimized for one hardware.

We don't know if Mantle would have worked on anything else. It was never tried.

 

[frozentundra123456]

We don't know if Mantle would have worked on anything else. It was never tried.

Seriously, do you think of all the millions of nVidia dgpu users, and the hundreds of nVidia engineers, some of them would not have tried to run mantle if it were possible? There is a lot of highly dubious information bandied about by both camps in regards to mantle, but seriously, this is one of the most absurd of all.

 

[gamervivek]

It can be multithreaded and still not recognize the hyperthreads,if it only runs two threads on the i3 but four on the i5 then the difference is logical.

I don't know about that, but if you look at their results only 750Ti does well with the i3, as in it doesn't go down much in performance with multithreaded on, all other cards drop to half of their singlethreaded performance. Though 970's single threaded performance is twice that of 750Ti.

It'd be interesting to test 970 alongside 750Ti with an i3. And also take a look at the i5 numbers.

I honestly don't know what to make of the dx11 results shown, they don't make much sense to me. One thing is clear, thank goodness dx12/Vulcan/Mantle are coming.

compared to

compared to

 

[Glo.]

We don't know if Mantle would have worked on anything else. It was never tried.

It has been tried on Imagination Technologies GPUs that Apple uses in their smartphones and tablets. Mantle from Apple is called Metal.

If Mantle can work on this type of GPUs it can work everywhere.

 

[3DVagabond]

It has been tried on Imagination Technologies GPUs that Apple uses in their smartphones and tablets. Mantle from Apple is called Metal.

If Mantle can work on this type of GPUs it can work everywhere.

I know that Metal is based on Mantle, as is OpenGLNext, and DX12. I don't think anyone actually simply wrote a Mantle driver though and ran Battlefield, for example, on another brand GPU.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

We don't know if Mantle would have worked on anything else. It was never tried.

It would have, but nvidia wouldn't have used it as long as amd was in control of the api.

Now microsoft is in control, so it's fine.

 

[Glo.]

I know that Metal is based on Mantle, as is OpenGLNext, and DX12. I don't think anyone actually simply wrote a Mantle driver though and ran Battlefield, for example, on another brand GPU.

Mantle is functional base for every API we have coming out in few weeks-months.

Functional means, that how API works is in fact Mantle, and the rest of functions are added to it.

AMD made just a base. Everyone took it from there and customized for platforms.

From Developer standing point of view, the best API right now is Vulkan, because it is completely multiplatform, OSX, Linux, Windows, Consoles.

 

[3DVagabond]

Mantle is functional base for every API we have coming out in few weeks-months.

Functional means, that how API works is in fact Mantle, and the rest of functions are added to it.

AMD made just a base. Everyone took it from there and customized for platforms.

From Developer standing point of view, the best API right now is Vulkan, because it is completely multiplatform, OSX, Linux, Windows, Consoles.

I'm not sure how this is a response to my post?

 

[stuff_me_good]

What's the point of making statements like this other than to start an argument?

I could argue that Mantle only showed up on less than 10 games so it's impact is a drop in the bucket compared to the impact DX12 will have. How can Mantle be considered a game changer when 3/4 of PC gamers use Nvidia GPU's?

Have you been living in a bottle or are you just so ignorant about what happens in this industry?

Mantle is whole reason why DX12 is what it is. Same goes to vulkan since it almost copy paste from mantle and it is a good thing that we gamers get real benefits in coming years. Clearly mantle would have been like glide in good old days, but everybody knows how proprietary APIs turn out to be in the long run and clearly we dont want taht to happen, so in essence mantle is the game changer.

 

[gamervivek]

I don't think Metal is based on Mantle as well.

http://aras-p.info/blog/2015/03/13/thoughts-on-explicit-graphics-apis/

 

[frozentundra123456]

Mantle is functional base for every API we have coming out in few weeks-months.

Functional means, that how API works is in fact Mantle, and the rest of functions are added to it.

AMD made just a base. Everyone took it from there and customized for platforms.

From Developer standing point of view, the best API right now is Vulkan, because it is completely multiplatform, OSX, Linux, Windows, Consoles.

This is basically what I am trying to say. Mantle may be the base of DX12, but it is *not* the same as DX12. DX12 may have the same basic features of mantle, but it is refined and extended, so by definition is not the same. Anyway, I still dont know why it is so important to some AMD fans to say DX12 is mantle. DX12, Vulcan, Metal, "are what they are". They should make it possible to add a lot of features to games, and make AMD cpus somewhat more competitive. But it all depends on the implementation, just like all the predictions how the x86 consoles were going to lead to all these great PC ports, and we really have not seen much except buggy games and a serious escalation in hardware requirements without a commensuate improvement in games.

 

[Glo.]

I don't think Metal is based on Mantle as well.

http://aras-p.info/blog/2015/03/13/thoughts-on-explicit-graphics-apis/

Metal has a functional base of Mantle. The same way its adopted in every other API thats coming soon.

 

[Silverforce11]

Metal has a functional base of Mantle. The same way its adopted in every other API thats coming soon.

Noticed that at their presentation.

This is the first time AMD has gone open and actually claim credit for DX12. They claimed it for Apple's Metal & Vulkan awhile ago but never directly for DX12.

Eventhough at the code level, both are highly similar, to a point where large chunks are identical, MS nor AMD never said it openly. Interesting.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Not sure how you translate it into "claim credit for DX12". Its just more nonsense.

Its simply a slide claiming that AMD drove the pace for thin APIs.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Not sure how you translate it into "claim credit for DX12". Its just more nonsense.

Its simply a slide claiming that AMD drove the pace for thin APIs.

Exactly, it does not say that at all. There is not even any information as to when the two APIs started development. Mantle was first one "delivered", but that would be expected since it only was finalized for AMD hardware.

 

[Silverforce11]

In their words: they invented something new, industry innovation FOLLOWED.

Apple's Metal, check. Kronos's Vulkan, check. Both confirmed to be using Mantle as a foundation. DX12, check. Draw your own conclusions.

Maybe one day, MS will come out and say it, if they do, will you guys come here and give AMD the credit they deserve or will you just find another reason to bash their efforts?

 

[Tuna-Fish]

Exactly, it does not say that at all. There is not even any information as to when the two APIs started development. Mantle was first one "delivered", but that would be expected since it only was finalized for AMD hardware.

Actually, the history is reasonably well known. In 2013, a guy who works for DICE started talking about his ideas for new 3D apis to everyone who could possibly implement it, including all three GPU manufacturers, Microsoft, Apple, Sony and Khronos. The only company that "caught the bait" and was willing to work with him was AMD (and even they apparently only after a lot of badgering). After he had worked his raw ideas into an actual software proof of concept with the help of AMD, the massive performance advantages got other companies interested.

Since AMD would be helped much more by a new better API than nVidia, AMD was willing to give the early Mantle spec away to anyone who wanted it. I know for a fact that the Vulkan first draft was Mantle with a copy/replace job done for names, and while I haven't talked to anyone who would actually know, the DX12 spec has pages and pages in it that are word for word exact with Mantle (again with the exception of some names), even including the typos, I expect it's origin was similar.

I absolutely do not understand this "AMD can do absolutely nothing right" mindset. The origin of these new APIs is Mantle. It requires truly ridiculous levels of head-in-the-sand to argue against this.


Of course, them being AMD probably means that the likely outcome of all this is moving the industry as whole forward, but AMD failing to capitalize on situation in any way. :whiste:

 

[AnandThenMan]

I absolutely do not understand this "AMD can do absolutely nothing right" mindset. The origin of these new APIs is Mantle. It requires truly ridiculous levels of head-in-the-sand to argue against this.

It's only a very small group of people saying this over and over (and never giving AMD credit for anything). It is beyond obvious at this point that DX12 etc. are heavily based on Mantle.

Of course, them being AMD probably means that the likely outcome of all this is moving the industry as whole forward, but AMD failing to capitalize on situation in any way. :whiste:

AMD is clueless in this regard they simply don't understand how to monetize their IP. It must be a corporate culture of being the "good guy" which from a moral perspective is commendable but from a business angle it has put the company in a very bad place.

 

[DeathReborn]

Actually, the history is reasonably well known. In 2013, a guy who works for DICE started talking about his ideas for new 3D apis to everyone who could possibly implement it, including all three GPU manufacturers, Microsoft, Apple, Sony and Khronos. The only company that "caught the bait" and was willing to work with him was AMD (and even they apparently only after a lot of badgering). After he had worked his raw ideas into an actual software proof of concept with the help of AMD, the massive performance advantages got other companies interested.

Since AMD would be helped much more by a new better API than nVidia, AMD was willing to give the early Mantle spec away to anyone who wanted it. I know for a fact that the Vulkan first draft was Mantle with a copy/replace job done for names, and while I haven't talked to anyone who would actually know, the DX12 spec has pages and pages in it that are word for word exact with Mantle (again with the exception of some names), even including the typos, I expect it's origin was similar.

I absolutely do not understand this "AMD can do absolutely nothing right" mindset. The origin of these new APIs is Mantle. It requires truly ridiculous levels of head-in-the-sand to argue against this.


Of course, them being AMD probably means that the likely outcome of all this is moving the industry as whole forward, but AMD failing to capitalize on situation in any way. :whiste:

Intel asked and got told no by AMD, so hardly giving it away to anyone that wanted it. I would guess that it was the consoles that inspired Johan to push for a thin API on the PC. So I guess the real question is, was Johan or AMD the true mastermind behind Mantle? Right now the credit is going to AMD, I think disproportionately so.

 

[Gloomy]

Intel asked and got told no by AMD, so hardly giving it away to anyone that wanted it. I would guess that it was the consoles that inspired Johan to push for a thin API on the PC. So I guess the real question is, was Johan or AMD the true mastermind behind Mantle? Right now the credit is going to AMD, I think disproportionately so.

AMD did give it away. They gave the spec to Khronos and it became Vulkan. They said they would give it away, and that they wanted it to become an industry standard, and that's what they did.

Intel is supporting Vulkan and already has a driver ready. Nvidia also supports it, and has shown a demo running on Vulkan. PowerVR also has a driver.

They definitely handled Mantle just how they said they would from the beginning.

 

[Vesku]

No amount of naysayers can change the fact that AMD led the charge on improving the software efficiency and thus total gaming power available to people's computers.

 

[TheELF]

AMD is clueless in this regard they simply don't understand how to monetize their IP. It must be a corporate culture of being the "good guy" which from a moral perspective is commendable but from a business angle it has put the company in a very bad place.

Wut?
So they made an API that would only work on their own cards,and only the new ones mind you,an API that would potentially greatly benefit their own many core cpus,an API they said they would give to anyone,but you know only once it gets out of beta status but of course, coinsidence of coincidences ,as soon as it got out of beta and once they saw that dx12 was almost ready they practically killed off mantle so they wouldn't have to give out the code.
Anyone not blinded by fanboyism can see that they tried anything to monetise on mantle,I don't know if they failed or if it actually worked but the sure thing is that they made a very good effort.

But other than that, they are the good guys.

 

[MisterLilBig]

Wut?
So they made an API that would only work on their own cards,and only the new ones mind you,an API that would potentially greatly benefit their own many core cpus,an API they said they would give to anyone,but you know only once it gets out of beta status but of course, coinsidence of coincidences ,as soon as it got out of beta and once they saw that dx12 was almost ready they practically killed off mantle so they wouldn't have to give out the code.
Anyone not blinded by fanboyism can see that they tried anything to monetise on mantle,I don't know if they failed or if it actually worked but the sure thing is that they made a very good effort.

But other than that, they are the good guys.

You know, considering that they have 3 architectures to support when building the API, I can very well see why they didn't share it early on. Many, many reasons why that was a good decision.


And about Mantle being dead. Last I saw of it, by AMD, it would live on in a continued experimental API for new features.

While the Mantle 1.0 spec was transformed into Vulkan.

 

[TheELF]

You know, considering that they have 3 architectures to support when building the API, I can very well see why they didn't share it early on. Many, many reasons why that was a good decision.

Of course it was a good idea,that's what I said,read this page of posts again some people say that amd gave away mantle early on and that dx12 is a copy paste of mantle.

And about Mantle being dead. Last I saw of it, by AMD, it would live on in a continued experimental API for new features.

That's why I said practically,amd will stop spending money on mantle since they can't fight dx12 (micro$ofts $$$ ) but of course they will keep it for ps4/xbone/whatever comes up.

 

[frozentundra123456]

It's only a very small group of people saying this over and over (and never giving AMD credit for anything). It is beyond obvious at this point that DX12 etc. are heavily based on Mantle.

AMD is clueless in this regard they simply don't understand how to monetize their IP. It must be a corporate culture of being the "good guy" which from a moral perspective is commendable but from a business angle it has put the company in a very bad place.

No, what has put the company in a "very bad place" is clearly inferior products in the cpu department, and rebranded, inefficient, although relatively good performing per dollar, products in the dgpu market.

Honestly, is their no end to the continual blaming of everyone except themselves for AMD's problems? Must be gameworks, must be contra revenue, must be poorly written software, must be intel buying off distributors, sheesh!! there is no end to it.