[Digitimes] AMD updates product roadmap for 2014 and 2015

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Homeles

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2011
2,580
0
0
They pay 40$ per die....
Even the harvested FX4 are quite marginable...
Not compared to Intel. And way to dodge the point on all of the R&D spending falling through the cracks for years.
As i pointed above , kraken or not , hot air if not trolling
since you have not datas and just get proping up useless
posts in respect of the topic.
Whatever makes you feel better.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
0
0
No offense, but that's pretty much the definition of a strawman argument.

No it isn't. For starters I'm not attempting to refute his point, I'm simply asking him for how he would describe something similar.

I also made no attempt to misrepresent, take out of context or oversimplify his point. I merely asked him for what adjective he would use to describe something that was even less, at which point he scrambled for the "strawman!!!11" argument which is badly used far too often as an attempt to get out of a justified question.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136
Not compared to Intel. And way to dodge the point on all of the R&D spending falling through the cracks for years.
Whatever makes you feel better.

Cost of intel s chips that are about 200mm2 is 48-54$,
chip on the order of 100mm2 is 20-22$ , to compare
with AMDs 246mm2 Trinity whose cost is no more than
30$/die, so intel has hardly lower production costs ,
this is , literaly , the cost of switching first to next nodes...

Anyway , you seems to know nothing about processes
costs , wich explain your lacking posts on this subject ,
unless you re an investor , in wich case you re stuck
with light and orientated infos.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
Whatever you say. Meanwhile in the rest of the world, $200 for 315mm² of silicon is not a very high margin, especially when you consider the delays upon delays it took for the FX series to launch in the first place.

Seams you dont get it, you dont expect a company to abandon its highest margin Desktop product especially when it sells ~2mil pieces per quarter. What others do outside of x86 is irrelevant.
Big core Desktop is viable for AMD and they will continue producing them.


Server roadmaps has nothing to do with desktop.

However you'd like to dodge the fact that Intel's processors are massively superior to AMD's.

Not in every segment. Haswell is not in the same segment as Kabini and ATOM. I thought you knew that.
 

Homeles

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2011
2,580
0
0
Seams you dont get it, you dont expect a company to abandon its highest margin Desktop product especially when it sells ~2mil pieces per quarter. What others do outside of x86 is irrelevant.
Big core Desktop is viable for AMD and they will continue producing them.
It'd be viable if they were capable of launching a product within a relevant time frame.
Server roadmaps has nothing to do with desktop.
Lol.
Not in every segment. Haswell is not in the same segment as Kabini and ATOM. I thought you knew that.
I do know that. You know what I also know? If Intel built a chip that was in the same segment as Kabini, it'd blow it out of the water. For everything other than GPU performance, that is.

Heck, Intel can target far higher TDPs than AMD and still blow them out of the water in every metric, except for cost -- this was the point of my comparison to Haswell, which you seem to have missed.

If Intel wins in 9 out of 10 categories, does that not make them the winner? Whether it's cost or GPU performance, eventually Intel will take that advantage away from AMD eventually.
 
Last edited:

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
Cost of intel s chips that are about 200mm2 is 48-54$,
chip on the order of 100mm2 is 20-22$ , to compare
with AMDs 246mm2 Trinity whose cost is no more than
30$/die, so intel has hardly lower production costs ,
this is , literaly , the cost of switching first to next nodes...

Anyway , you seems to know nothing about processes
costs , wich explain your lacking posts on this subject ,
unless you re an investor , in wich case you re stuck
with light and orientated infos.

Is that some homemade numbers?
 

Homeles

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2011
2,580
0
0
Is that some homemade numbers?
Yep. Meanwhile, you can see him complaining about my "random" numbers earlier. Apparently it's okay for him to do, but no one else is allowed.

He's not really creating an environment for respectful discourse.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
It'd be viable if they were capable of launching a product within a relevant time frame.

Vishera is only 10 months old


I do know that. You know what I also know? If Intel built a chip that was in the same segment as Kabini, it'd blow it out of the water. For everything other than GPU performance, that is.

ATOM is in the same segment, i dont see BayTrail blowing Kabini out of the water.

Heck, Intel can target far higher TDPs than AMD and still blow them out of the water in every metric, except for cost -- this was the point of my comparison to Haswell, which you seem to have missed.

And what this has to do with Kabini vs Baytrail ???

Whether it's cost or GPU performance, eventually Intel will take that advantage away from AMD eventually.
I hear this since Llano was first released, next year Intel will blow AMDs iGPU out of the water. Three generations after that and at the same segment Intel still falls behind with HD4600.

ps: Can you now explain why do you thing that Kabini is a disappointment ??
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
1,142
131
I hear this since Llano was first released, next year Intel will blow AMDs iGPU out of the water. Three generations after that and at the same segment Intel still falls behind with HD4600.

The difference got smaller in Ivy Bridge vs Trinity and now mobile Haswell CPUs with Iris Pro beat even AMD's 100W desktop APUs. Two years, wow that was fast. In a few generations they could match AMD's best with high-clocked GT2 class IGPs.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
The difference got smaller in Ivy Bridge vs Trinity and now mobile Haswell CPUs with Iris Pro beat even AMD's 100W desktop APUs. Two years, wow that was fast. In a few generations they could match AMD's best with high-clocked GT2 class IGPs.

What part of same segment didnt you understand ???
Iris pro is not in the same price/category as Ritchland.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136
Is that some homemade numbers?

Theses are published numbers in technical docs
about processes costs.

Basicaly the cost per mm2 of bulk HKMG or bulk FinFet
is twice the cost of FDSOI HP , that is for 28 and 20nm
nodes , the cost difference will still be 50% higher
for the formers after two years depreciation.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
ATOM is in the same segment, i dont see BayTrail blowing Kabini out of the water.

It really isn't. There may be some overlap, but you won't see 25W BayTrail SoCs and you won't see Temash in phones. And where that overlap does exist - for example 1GHz dual core Temash in tablets vs quad-core up to 2.4GHz BayTrail-T - I think "blows out of the water" could be appropriate.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136
for example 1GHz dual core Temash in tablets vs quad-core up to 2.4GHz BayTrail-T - I think "blows out of the water" could be appropriate.

If the kraken numbers are right and extrapolating a 15-20%
better result in chrome then a 4C 3770 at 1.46ghz will
barely match a 1Ghz 4C Temash ; hardly what one could
brand blow out of the water...

2.4Ghz is a turbo frequency that cant be applied on more
than a single core if TDP is to be kept under control.

2.4ghz for all four cores would result in 2.5-3 times
the TDP at base frequency.
 

inf64

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2011
3,764
4,223
136
I really doubt BT cores can come close to Jaguar IPC wise (even in integer stuff). Sure intel will have nm advantage and power draw will be lower even for some higher clocked parts, but AMD will continue to tweak the Jaguar and hopefully they will have a follow-up core ready(jaguar+?) for Q1 or Q2 next year.
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
1,142
131
If the kraken numbers are right and extrapolating a 15-20%
better result in chrome then a 4C 3770 at 1.46ghz will
barely match a 1Ghz 4C Temash ; hardly what one could
brand blow out of the water...

The only Temash APU with similar TDP would be the 3.9W A4-1200, a dual-core 1GHz Jaguar which means 1/3 of A4 5000 (4C @ 1.5GHz) CPU performance. Yes, it will get easily smashed by a 4C/4T @ up to 2.4GHz Z3770 and wont get too far on the gfx side with 45% of A4 5000's GPU performance either.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
0
0
The only Temash APU with similar TDP would be the 3.9W A4-1200, a dual-core 1GHz Jaguar which means 1/3 of A4 5000 (4C @ 1.5GHz) CPU performance. Yes, it will get easily smashed by a 4C/4T @ up to 2.4GHz Z3770 and wont get too far on the gfx side with 45% of A4 5000's GPU performance either.

Graphics performance will be very close actually. Single threaded performance will also be very good subjectively, but it's bloated full of stuff that just has no use in a tablet.

It was never meant to be a tablet chip anyway, the only reason it's being suggested as one is because it is so damn good where it's meant to be. If you think about it, there was never any Brazos 1.0 anywhere near a tablet, yet Temash has better performance than the C-50 - at less than half the TDP and including southbridge.
 

monstercameron

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2013
3,818
1
0
Graphics performance will be very close actually. Single threaded performance will also be very good subjectively, but it's bloated full of stuff that just has no use in a tablet.

It was never meant to be a tablet chip anyway, the only reason it's being suggested as one is because it is so damn good where it's meant to be. If you think about it, there was never any Brazos 1.0 anywhere near a tablet, yet Temash has better performance than the C-50 - at less than half the TDP and including southbridge.

I agree, the c-50 wasn't bad and this temash improves on everything...
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136
The only Temash APU with similar TDP would be the 3.9W A4-1200, a dual-core 1GHz Jaguar which means 1/3 of A4 5000 (4C @ 1.5GHz) CPU performance. Yes, it will get easily smashed by a 4C/4T @ up to 2.4GHz Z3770 and wont get too far on the gfx side with 45% of A4 5000's GPU performance either.

If you believe that it can do 2.4ghz with four cores
at this frequency in a 5W TDP then you are either
gullible or without any knowledge of the silicon
side of things...

Btw , what is the official TDP of this 3770 ?
 

Homeles

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2011
2,580
0
0
Vishera is only 10 months old
Where's the announcement of a successor? How long would it take for a successor to arrive? Historically, FX processors have followed APU launches, so that leaves us with an awfully delayed successor to Vishera, even if it were to exist.

And er, how's Kaveri coming along? That one will be close to 18 months by the time we see it, if not longer. Unless you're counting Richland, that is.
ATOM is in the same segment, i dont see BayTrail blowing Kabini out of the water.
Can you show me an example of Kabini running in a smartphone?

Bay Trail doesn't beat Kabini in performance bacause it isn't supposed to. Sub 10W processors aren't supposed to beat 25W processors. The fact that Intel will be coming so close is not good news at all for AMD
And what this has to do with Kabini vs Baytrail ???
I really wish my valid comparisons wouldn't go over your head...
I hear this since Llano was first released, next year Intel will blow AMDs iGPU out of the water.
And I heard Bulldozer would blow Intel out of the water.

What others have said don't apply to what I have said.
Three generations after that and at the same segment Intel still falls behind with HD4600.
It's all a matter of perspective. Intel's HD 5000 blows Kabini out of the water within the same power limit. That's pretty amazing, considering how much larger Haswell is.
ps: Can you now explain why do you thing that Kabini is a disappointment ??
Sure.
__________________________

The Jaguar architecture is a disappointment because it is a very uncompetitive architecture for tablets.

It is a two-wide OoOE architecture, however it only clocks in at 1GHz. Now, we all know that GHz aren't everything, however Silvermont has almost twice the clock speed and is also a two-wide OoOE architecture. At similar TDPs, Silvermont will easily beat Kabini's CPU performance, and I'm curious to see how the graphics side of things look when AMD has their hands tied behind their back with 300MHz or less GPU clocks.

If we cut Intel out of the equation entirely, AMD still doesn't look good. GCN in a tablet does sound interesting, but its compute abilities are of questionable usefulness. I can't really comment on GPU performance, but I don't expect them to come out on top. They should be pretty good for what they're going to be used for, though. However, their CPU is not going to be much to look at when it's hamstrung at 1GHz. Their one redeeming factor is their instruction support -- AVX is pretty nice, however I believe that is the only instruction set they'll have on Silvermont.

AMD, for now, is tied to Windows tablets. I know Android tablets and such are coming, but how far away is that? Windows tablets aren't necessarily the cool place to be right now, and they'll have to go up against Intel's (likely) better Atoms.

A piece that frustrates me about AMD, across their entire x86 and praphics portfolios: turbo boost is not ubiquitous. It needs to be, desperately. It's a tremendous advantage, and they've missed countless opportunities to capitalize on it. They need it on their GPUs. They need it on their CPUs. To their credit, they offer it on pretty much all of their Piledriver APUs and their FX processors. However, in the APU that they need it most in, they only have Turbo enabled on one SKU.

Now they did launch a few more Jaguar-based (I think?) APUs with turbo enabled recently, which is good; but why is it not enabled everywhere?
_________________________

Other than their turbo issues, and my opinion that Temash is absolutely not cut out for the tablet world, I do like Kabini. Now, as you can tell by my sudden change in heart, I've only developed this opinion very recently -- probably because I was looking at the wrong reviews.

The really good: Console wins are an obvious thing to put here. The best thing, far and away, is that AMD should find a cute little niche between Atom and Haswell. Unlike Brazos, Kabini "craptops" will be actually usable, and there's some potential for AMD to steal a good amount of market share from Intel in the craptop segment (sorry, I don't like budget notebooks). Kabini is simply in a very good position (contrasted with Temash, which is not).

The good: Wide instruction support. This should fare nicely against Celerons and Pentiums. I really hope this pressures Intel to not be so stingy on their instruction sets. Now that AVX is sure to have gathered some decent market adoption, it should be a pretty big advantage for AMD. One last bit: Kabini is a vast improvement over its successor, and it manages to get pretty close to Ivy Bridge i3s for a lot less.

The bad: Kabini's graphics still aren't quite there for notebooks. I sort of see HD 4000 as being the bare minimum for relevance in the PC space. I've been playing on HD 4000 for the past ~8 months, and while they work, they do that and nothing more. Kabini comes close to HD 4000 in many cases, and I'd imagine the A6-5200 wouldn't be that bad, but gaming on AMD's "Cat" processors won't be a pleasant experience in a notebook until their 20nm offerings come around. AMD will need to look out for stiff competition from Haswell here, though. On the bright side, this is one area that AMD is completely safe from Atom, until Airmont drops.

The ugly: Haswell Pentiums are about to drop, and eventually Celerons will work their way in. Battery life will be Intel's game, and AMD won't be able to do anything about it — this is true for both their Atom line and their Core line.

Also, AMD's CPU advantages largely are due to Intel disabling so many instructions on their Pentium and Celeron lines. All it would take for Intel to shrug AMD off would be to re-enable those instructions. Obviously they can't do this ex post facto, but it's a precarious situation for AMD.

The really ugly: Still no turbo. What the hell, AMD.
 

Homeles

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2011
2,580
0
0
If you believe that it can do 2.4ghz with four cores
at this frequency in a 5W TDP then you are either
gullible or without any knowledge of the silicon
side of things...

Btw , what is the official TDP of this 3770 ?
2W SDP, TDP is probably 4-5W.
 

bullzz

Senior member
Jul 12, 2013
405
23
81
@Abwx
in the other thread, OP mentions the frequencies (2.3ghz turbo) with 4 cores. and its a tablet. so it has to be 6w or less
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136
@Abwx
in the other thread, OP mentions the frequencies (2.3ghz turbo) with 4 cores. and its a tablet. so it has to be 6w or less

It s not incompatible , the bench he used only
loaded one core significantly so frequency of this
core could be increased to 2.3Ghz with the CPU
still being within its thermal envelloppe.

Should a bench use 4 cores that the device
would be stuck firmly at 1.46Ghz.
 
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