DirectX 12

[AnandThenMan]

Let's play this out:

When DX12 comes out, if it does threading in a good way (let's assume it does no worse than mantle) and is Win9 only, then Mantle only matters to Win 8.1 and below...which will be a shrinking market.

Why will Mantle not matter for people running Windows 9? You assume that DX12 will come out and be more mature and have more game support than Mantle which has a 2+ year head start.

A pretty poor assumption IMO. Also you can call Win8 and below a shrinking market, but in reality it will be a massive majority of users. Put another way, Nvidia will finally benefit from low level optimizations 2+ years after AMD, and that will only be for a tiny slice of people initially.

 

[BrightCandle]

End of 2015 for games might be a bit pessimistic if they are already at the point of having a game and a benchmark running on it. That sounds about as closed to finished as Mantle is and Microsoft equally has an early access program. We don't have the binaries yet but otherwise its looking very similar to Mantle in maturity.

Until we have published APIs that anyone can develop with neither really counts as released in my book.

 

[desprado]

Let's play this out:

When DX12 comes out, if it does threading in a good way (let's assume it does no worse than mantle) and is Win9 only, then Mantle only matters to Win 8.1 and below...which will be a shrinking market.

If all of the above is true, except DX12 gets on to Win 8/8.1 (or even Win7), that market for Mantle continues to shrink. Game developers will not willingly support 2 or more renderers. They'll support DX for Windows, OGL for Linux/OSX and then the XBox and PS platforms. I don't see them duplicating their work on the PC by supporting DX AND Mantle unless AMD throws lots of money at them.

And again, if DX12 gets perf numbers close to Mantle, AMD will have no reason to pay people to support Mantle.

From the eurogamer article:


So MS apparently has DX12 working in a prototype form.

DX 12 will support 50% of all PC games in 2015 holiday,
http://www.shacknews.com/article/83...romises-increased-performance-for-xbox-one-pc

At that time Mantle will only support 3 or 4 games max there is no compassion.

 

[Grooveriding]

It's straight from Microsoft's mouth.

Q: When will I be able to get my hands on DirectX 12?
A: We are targeting Holiday 2015 games.

Vapourware of the utmost caliber by the standards of some

 

[AnandThenMan]

whats more important: who believes that fermi and kepler will actually benefit from dx12? this could be all , you know, pr bs. blindly believing in pr slides. i cant take it no more oh god this is so hypocritical

Yes it is, we all need to take a wait and see just like Mantle. The difference is that with Microsoft, we have a very large sample size of them not exactly putting out efficiently coded stuff. DX12 being in the realm of Mantle will be a huge achievement for Microsoft, unprecedented in my view.

With Mantle we had zero idea what to expect, but luckily the wait between announcement and actual benches was not years.

 

[caswow]

I don't think it is; you're trying to make it one though.

the same people wo called bs on amd and mantle are now celebrating ms dx12 slides. i dont think iam the only one that noticed this

 

[PPB]

Raise your hand whoever is rushing to get the new Windows MS will try to impose just to get DX 12 working?


Ah, most probably the same people that had to change OS just to demonstrate that Mantle humillates DX11.2 a little less than it does to DX11. Poor guys.

 

[Phynaz]

DX 12 will support 50% of all PC games in 2015 holiday,
http://www.shacknews.com/article/83...romises-increased-performance-for-xbox-one-pc

At that time Mantle will only support 3 or 4 games max there is no compassion.

Reading fail. 50% of gaming PCs, not games.

 

[caswow]

dx12 is good but its so late. it has to be here like till summer. its so frustrating to know that they target holiday 2015. i dont have an amd card so i am dependent on ms dx12.

 

[Gloomy]

I still remember the "HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE AMD PR SLIDES??? THEY ARENT PROOF!!!!1one!!eleventy" whining on the Mantle thread from someone who just entered the thread a couple posts ago. Guess PR slides are only PR slides if they are made by AMD, if else -> undeniable truth sent from the heavens

lmao now that you mention it :sneaky:

I could also copy some posts from the freesync thread and replace freesync with DX12 and gsync with Mantle.

How about this:

I can load up and play a Mantle game right now and get gains like

while DX12 is YEARS out, seriously VAPOURWARE like no other currently.

Where is DX12? Where is it?


Thread crapping will not be tolerated.


-Rvenger

 

[RampantAndroid]

Why will Mantle not matter for people running Windows 9? You assume that DX12 will come out and be more mature and have more game support than Mantle which has a 2+ year head start.

A pretty poor assumption IMO. Also you can call Win8 and below a shrinking market, but in reality it will be a massive majority of users. Put another way, Nvidia will finally benefit from low level optimizations 2+ years after AMD, and that will only be for a tiny slice of people initially.

I think it's a fine assumption. AMD has 30% market share according to Steam, and that's a number that isn't growing right now. AMD isn't really in a good place to be throwing money at developers to support Mantle, and many games are limited by consoles more than PC render calls...so I don't think many games releasing on the PC will really benefit from Mantle anyway. And it seems like Mantle will remain not only PC only, but GCN only for a long time to come it seems. It'll be as successful at Phys X, if not less so.

Microsoft's documentation of SDKs is incredibly good; being an apple iOS developer, Apple's developer documentation is pretty slipshod (also, objective C. <shudder>) From what I know of AMD's, they aren't great either. MSDN is a beacon for developers.

The only situation in which I see Mantle taking hold is if AMD somehow convinces nVidia to adhere to the GCN architecture and support Mantle. But I don't see that.

Look, we've watched this battle before. Glide was limited to 3DFX cards only, and back then the Voodoo cards WERE popular. They were THE gaming cards. And despite that, glide became a thing left on the shelf to collect dust as D3D improved. Developers don't want to support multiple render paths if they don't have to.

 

[Carfax83]

Seems like DX12 is more similar to Mantle than the narrative you want to present, Carfax: https://twitter.com/repi/status/446787503953944576

Right, lets look at some facts:

1) DX12 uses command lists, Mantle doesn't.

2) DX12 relies heavily on the GPU driver threads for multithreading and performance, Mantle doesn't.

3) DX12 runs on multiple architectures, Mantle doesn't.

Yep, Mantle is similar to DirectX 12!

For the free thinking and observant among us, we'll come to our own conclusions based on facts rather than relying on snide twitter remarks..

 

[desprado]

lmao now that you mention it :sneaky:

I could also copy some posts from the freesync thread and replace freesync with DX12 and gsync with Mantle.

How about this:

I can load up and play a Mantle game right now and get gains like

while DX12 is YEARS out, seriously VAPOURWARE like no other currently.

Where is DX12? Where is it?

U can gain much more performance with Nvidia on win 8.1 when u are playing BF4
These Benchmark does not matter because it is running on Win 7.

 

[desprado]

Right, lets look at some facts:

1) DX12 uses command lists, Mantle doesn't.

2) DX12 relies heavily on the GPU driver threads for multithreading and performance, Mantle doesn't.

3) DX12 runs on multiple architectures, Mantle doesn't.

Yep, Mantle is similar to DirectX 12!

For the free thinking and observant among us, we'll come to our own conclusions based on facts rather than relying on snide twitter remarks..

According to ur post that Nvidia will take most of benefits.These most are nvidia benefits.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Yep, Mantle is similar to DirectX 12!

It is according to people that actually code game engines, but what do they know. DX12 is very very different in one aspect, it won't be here for 2 years and will very likely force you to buy a whole new OS.

 

[f1sherman]

Yes it is, we all need to take a wait and see just like Mantle. The difference is that with Microsoft, we have a very large sample size of them not exactly putting out efficiently coded stuff. DX12 being in the realm of Mantle will be a huge achievement for Microsoft, unprecedented in my view.

With Mantle we had zero idea what to expect, but luckily the wait between announcement and actual benches was not years.

Microsoft is that bad with APIs?
God help us then.

anyway... MS (and apparently nVidia) had the game running on Day 1 of their DX12 announcement

 

[caswow]

Microsoft is that bad with APIs?
God help us then.

anyway... MS (and apparently nVidia) had the game running on Day 1 of their DX12 announcement

Man the straw is strong with this one:'(

 

[AnandThenMan]

anyway... MS (and apparently nVidia) had the game running on Day 1 of their DX12 announcement

Makes you wonder why we have to wait until the end of 2015. Seriously what's up with that?

 

[desprado]

It is according to people that actually code game engines, but what do they know. DX12 is very very different in one aspect, it won't be here for 2 years and will very likely force you to buy a whole new OS.

Still Percentage of DX12 user will much more higher than Mantle user.That is a fact.

 

[f1sherman]

Makes you wonder why we have to wait until the end of 2015. Seriously what's up with that?

you dont!

 

[AnandThenMan]

Still Percentage of DX12 user will much more higher than Mantle user.That is a fact.

Facts don't exist in the future.

 

[monstercameron]

Microsoft is that bad with APIs?
God help us then.

anyway... MS (and apparently nVidia) had the game running on Day 1 of their DX12 announcement

just like the next gen e3 demos running on nvidia gpus
the racing game playing in vlc on intel demo a while back
like the gaming tower from amd that had a trinity laptop inside

there are many instances where tech demos could be faking it.

 

[desprado]

Makes you wonder why we have to wait until the end of 2015. Seriously what's up with that?

Maybe new OS and taking there time for making it better.

 

[caswow]

you dont!

you must be joking right?

 

[Carfax83]

lmao now that you mention it :sneaky:

I could also copy some posts from the freesync thread and replace freesync with DX12 and gsync with Mantle.

How about this:

I can load up and play a Mantle game right now and get gains like

That chart is completely useless as a reference, as they used Windows 7. Windows 8/8.1 would have closed the gap considerably..

If you're going to compare Mantle to DirectX, at least compare it using the best examples..

while DX12 is YEARS out, seriously VAPOURWARE like no other currently.

Where is DX12? Where is it?

I'm sure we'll see some DX12 updates for certain games before native DX12 games start shipping.