DirectX 12

[Despoiler]

1: If developers asked for Mantle. Why is everyone avoiding it then, unless they are heavily sponsored?

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/mantle/Pages/mantle.aspx#2

2, 3 and 4:
Mantle is a stillborn API. It only works on GCN with 35% dGPU and 18% CPU share, both declining, specially the last one. Consoles rejected it as well. Also the Frostbite3 engine was to have Mantle build in. Yet no other Frostbite3 games besides BF4 seesm to be getting Mantle at all now.

The future is DirectX and OpenGL. Mantle is no part of that future.

A year ago AMD said DX was dead and there would be no DX12. And if GCN1.1 is the competition to Maxwell. Its clear what happend. AMD ran out of R&D funding.

No one is avoiding Mantle. AMD is purposely limiting the amount of devs that have access to it while it's in development. aka typical alpha/beta limited user testing. You have no evidence for your claims.

http://youtu.be/sSY2KXBoro0?t=25m28s

 

[Slomo4shO]

Backing this up with a source, and perhaps even a fact or two, would go a long way to making this post relevant. I'm looking forward to reading it.

Not specific to mining but market share was down Q3 and Q4...

Market share in Q4 was down for discrete cards:

Market share was also down when including integrated solutions:

AMD’s shipments of desktop APUs (heterogeneous GPU/CPUs) jumped 15% from the previous quarter but declined 26.7% in notebooks. AMD’s discrete desktop shipments increased 1.8%, and notebook discrete shipments declined 6.7%. The company’s overall PC graphics shipments decreased 10.4%. Notebook build cycles are specific, and AMD was late with its new parts.

 

[bystander36]

Mantle is still new, so it does have time to spread wings. It is hard to say whether it will be a success or not, with current info. I do like how it reduces CPU bottlenecks, but I'd like to see a more open API fix that.

What are the odds that DX12 will come with Windows 9, which is rumored to release next year?

 

[Red Hawk]

Are you serious? You don't need to fact check that, only 2 games have mantle support right now, and one of them BF4 is "iffy" it gets broke every patch, and still bad performance on some series cards. AMD is not gunning towards the gaming market, never has. Gaming market has marginal impact on sales vs OEM/retail sales.

It's still in the early days of the API; you're forgetting that Mantle is in two next-gen engines (Oxide and Frostbite 3). It will probably be used in a bunch of strategy games from Stardock (with possible licensing outside) and in a lot of EA's Frostbite 3 based games. I bet that Dragon Age Inquisition will have Mantle support.

2, 3 and 4:
Mantle is a stillborn API. It only works on GCN with 35% dGPU and 18% CPU share, both declining, specially the last one. Consoles rejected it as well. Also the Frostbite3 engine was to have Mantle build in. Yet no other Frostbite3 games besides BF4 seesm to be getting Mantle at all now.

"Consoles rejected it"? I don't think they ever really tried to get Mantle into consoles; it's meant to bring PCs to efficiency parity with consoles, so what Mantle does consoles were already doing. The thought that Mantle was "in" consoles was just speculation started by AnandTech's Mantle analysis before AMD, Sony, and Microsoft fairly quickly debunked it, IIRC.

No Frostbite 3 games having Mantle since BF4 might have to do with the fact that EA hasn't actually released more Frostbite 3 games since BF4. In any case, it makes sense for DICE to work out the kinks in Frostbite 3 and Mantle before giving it out to EA's other developers. Again, I bet that Dragon Age Inquisition will see Mantle support on PC; its logo was included in AMD's slide presentation announcing Mantle.

The future is DirectX and OpenGL. Mantle is no part of that future.

What recent AAA game uses OpenGL?

 

[bystander36]

Rage was the last one I knew, but if you want a comprehensive list, take a look at games that support SteamOS. OpenGL, due to SteamOS and the mobile revolution, may make a comeback.

 

[Red Hawk]

Rage was the last one I knew, but if you want a comprehensive list, take a look at games that support SteamOS. OpenGL, due to SteamOS and the mobile revolution, may make a comeback.

SteamOS is a big gamble itself. The games on it are basically a lot of Steam's indie games (thus fairly easy to port), or Valve's older games ported over. No new AAA games. OpenGL may have a place in with mobile games and low-budget indie PC games, but that would mean it doesn't even compete with Mantle.

 

[Jodell88]

What recent AAA game uses OpenGL?

Metro Last Light.

 

[Stuka87]

Metro Last Light.

That uses DirectX by default on Windows. It has to be switched to run in OpenGL. Its OpenGL only on Linux of course.

 

[monstercameron]

Metro Last Light.

if I am not mistaken arent mac games opengl?
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?os=mac&category1=998

so if true then there are plenty of AAA games with opengl backends

 

[Red Hawk]

if I am not mistaken arent mac games opengl?
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?os=mac&category1=998

so if true then there are plenty of AAA games with opengl backends

Because Mac is totally the future of gaming, right?

OpenGL obviously has a place on Mac and Linux. But Mantle isn't even targeting that. It's targeting Windows gaming, and if Windows gaming is not the platform of the future, then that's DirectX's problem just as much as Mantle's.

 

[Jodell88]

Because Mac is totally the future of gaming, right?

OpenGL obviously has a place on Mac and Linux. But Mantle isn't even targeting that. It's targeting Windows gaming, and if Windows gaming is not the platform of the future, then that's DirectX's problem just as much as Mantle's.

Mantle will never come to Mac or Linux as an API. It's gonna come as OpenGL extensions. As I stated before, OpenGL (thanks to AMD) already has ways to get an obscene amount of draw calls with low CPU overhead.

 

[Homeles]

Does it come with a new OS ?!
Another useless release.
Developers got smarter in the mean time.
Mantle has just switched the focus of the game developers.

Only with Windows 9?

Fun fact: Microsoft doesn't try to force you to upgrade with new DirectX versions. This is a stupid conspiracy theory -- funnily enough, enthusiasts and PC gamers are full of these stupid theories.

With Windows Vista, Microsoft introduced a much-needed graphics driver overhaul called WDDM 1.0. DirectX 10 was reliant on WDDM. Backporting WDDM to XP would have been time consuming and expensive.

Unlike the previous iterations of DirectX, 10 will be launched in a different manner due to all the changes to the operating system needed to support it. Of greatest importance, DirectX 10 will be a Vista-only feature; Microsoft will not be backporting it to XP. DirectX 10 will not only include support for new hardware features, but relies on some significant changes Microsoft is making to how Windows treats GPUs and interfaces with them, requiring the clean break. This may pose a problem for users that want to upgrade their hardware without upgrading their OS. It is likely that driver support will allow for DX9 compatibility, while new feature support could easily be added through OpenGL caps, but the exact steps ATI and NVIDIA will take to keep everyone happy will have to unfold over time.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2030/6

Could things have been handled better? Probably. But Microsoft's not out to get you.

 

[Stuka87]

Fun fact: Microsoft doesn't try to force you to upgrade with new DirectX versions. This is a stupid conspiracy theory -- funnily enough, enthusiasts and PC gamers are full of these stupid theories.

With Windows Vista, Microsoft introduced a much-needed graphics driver overhaul called WDDM 1.0. DirectX 10 was reliant on WDDM. Backporting WDDM to XP would have been time consuming and expensive.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2030/6

Could things have been handled better? Probably. But Microsoft's not out to get you.

Are you being serious? Sure DX10 would have been a pain to port to XP. But there is *ZERO* reason 11.1 requires Windows 8. Its microsoft trying to force people to upgrade to an OS that they otherwise would not use. They did they same thing with Windows 7 and DX11. Although in that case Windows 7 was a godsend compared to Vista.

And I have no doubt that DX12 will be Windows 9 only for no other reason then to not support an existing OS.

 

[cytg111]

Fun fact: Microsoft doesn't try to force you to upgrade with new DirectX versions. This is a stupid conspiracy theory -- funnily enough, enthusiasts and PC gamers are full of these stupid theories.

With Windows Vista, Microsoft introduced a much-needed graphics driver overhaul called WDDM 1.0. DirectX 10 was reliant on WDDM. Backporting WDDM to XP would have been time consuming and expensive.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2030/6

Could things have been handled better? Probably. But Microsoft's not out to get you.

- What constitutes a conspiracy theory? Getting access to the next gen directx api means buying out next gen OS as well - honestly that sounds like microsoft standard practise to me 101. MS is like this goliath that has trouble accepting that he's not the only goliath in the room anymore.. and thus still acts the part.

As perspective, opgengl4 with all the bells a whistles of directx11 will run marrily on windowsxp - the OS that is so outdated that microsoft feels the need to kill it in 1-2 months (but dude, it *could* still rock crysis3 .. AND Office... AND x... what gives? .. - someone might ask. Dollar bills yo - make the world go round.)
Again, i dont consider it a conspiracy theory rather than a simple extrapolation of behavior past.

 

[smackababy]

- What constitutes a conspiracy theory? Getting access to the next gen directx api means buying out next gen OS as well - honestly that sounds like microsoft standard practise to me 101. MS is like this goliath that has trouble accepting that he's not the only goliath in the room anymore.. and thus still acts the part.

As perspective, opgengl4 with all the bells a whistles of directx11 will run marrily on windowsxp - the OS that is so outdated that microsoft feels the need to kill it in 1-2 months (but dude, it *could* still rock crysis3 .. AND Office... AND x... what gives? .. - someone might ask. Dollar bills yo - make the world go round.)
Again, i dont consider it a conspiracy theory rather than a simple extrapolation of behavior past.

You're so right! MS is "killing" XP for no reason other than to grab money. It couldn't be there are currently 3 more current versions of Windows (none of which are 15 years old) they are supporting. MS is so bad! They don't support products from years past. They don't even support DOS anymore! Those evil bastards!


In other news, DX12 confirmed to be on the Xbox One.

 

[RampantAndroid]

You're so right! MS is "killing" XP for no reason other than to grab money. It couldn't be there are currently 3 more current versions of Windows (none of which are 15 years old) they are supporting. MS is so bad! They don't support products from years past. They don't even support DOS anymore! Those evil bastards!


In other news, DX12 confirmed to be on the Xbox One.

More than 3, if you count the server SKUs.

That it's on the X1 isn't at all surprising, I think. Which means....wait, that maybe MS was talking to AMD?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

More than 3, if you count the server SKUs.

That it's on the X1 isn't at all surprising, I think. Which means....wait, that maybe MS was talking to AMD?

I still think that there are going to be some similarities between dx12 and mantle popping up. Like amd's mantle driver will work with dx12.

 

[Will Robinson]

1: If developers asked for Mantle. Why is everyone avoiding it then, unless they are heavily sponsored?

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/mantle/Pages/mantle.aspx#2

2, 3 and 4:
Mantle is a stillborn API. It only works on GCN with 35% dGPU and 18% CPU share, both declining, specially the last one. Consoles rejected it as well. Also the Frostbite3 engine was to have Mantle build in. Yet no other Frostbite3 games besides BF4 seesm to be getting Mantle at all now.

The future is DirectX and OpenGL. Mantle is no part of that future.

A year ago AMD said DX was dead and there would be no DX12. And if GCN1.1 is the competition to Maxwell. Its clear what happend. AMD ran out of R&D funding.

"Consoles rejected it"?
Hmm....AMD designed and built the APUs that power consoles(remember your prediction on that?)...and so AMD rejected Mantle?

 

[Carfax83]

As perspective, opgengl4 with all the bells a whistles of directx11 will run marrily on windowsxp -

A comment straight from ignorance.

OpenGL isn't tied to the OS at the kernel level like DirectX, which is used for quite a bit more functionality than just gaming.

 

[Gloomy]

A comment straight from ignorance.

OpenGL isn't tied to the OS at the kernel level like DirectX, which is used for quite a bit more functionality than just gaming.

Then DX12 is a good chance to divorce video games from Microsoft's OS versions.

 

[Despoiler]

Then DX12 is a good chance to divorce video games from Microsoft's OS versions.

It's a small possibility now that MS has a new CEO that is completely willing to change the way MS has been doing things. Their current and entire business model is focused on selling more copies of Windows first and foremost. With their recent announcement they are exploring a Google like advertising business model, they do have an opportunity to de-couple DX from the OS, which would allow it to iterate faster.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Then DX12 is a good chance to divorce video games from Microsoft's OS versions.

Why is that? If DX is tied to the OS infrastructure (WDDM, which is what prevented DX11.1 from going to downlevel clients, I believe) why would this suddenly change?

 

[R0H1T]

It's a small possibility now that MS has a new CEO that is completely willing to change the way MS has been doing things. Their current and entire business model is focused on selling more copies of Windows first and foremost. With their recent announcement they are exploring a Google like advertising business model, they do have an opportunity to de-couple DX from the OS, which would allow it to iterate faster.

It won't happen, certainly not with DX12, as long as Windows is the dominant OS & their biggest money maker, which sounds like "never ever" but let's see what the future holds for us all.

P>S> I do hope that DX goes the way of OpenGL/MANTLE as in being OS independent & not limiting the GPU's capabilities artificially by tying it to the latest OS, as a prerequisite.

 

[HeXen]

"Consoles rejected it"?
Hmm....AMD designed and built the APUs that power consoles(remember your prediction on that?)...and so AMD rejected Mantle?

How would it matter? I thought consoles already had low level access? If so then why would Mantle even be considered on consoles?

 

[Xarick]

I thought Nvidia was already doing this in Opengl which is why they have their own specific extensions.. and why games based on opengl run faster on nvidia hardware.