DirectX 12

[ShintaiDK]

If, like ShintaiDK said DX12 started 4year ago and with the man-power MS has, I don't get why it still needs 2years to finish.

6year dev in total is normally what a new Windows version needs, but an API?

Whats the development timecycle for OpenGL for example?

When you make standards everyone has to follow it usually takes time.

We already know DX12 capable hardware in the form of Haswell, Fermi, Kepler and Maxwell. And Fermi goes back to 2010.

 

[mindbomb]

Just to be clear, this isn't some "feature level 11.0" technicality, is it?
anyway, i didn't want to rule out mantle cause of microsoft's propensity to screw things up...but yea, it looks like it's gonna beat out mantle at this point.

 

[parvadomus]

Nah, not died ... it just changed name

Yep

 

[dacostafilipe]

We already know DX12 capable hardware in the form of Haswell, Fermi, Kepler and Maxwell. And Fermi goes back to 2010.

That's my point. This time around, they don't have to wait for new hardware like they did with DX9/DX11. It's all software based.

The season why it's all software is clear: modern GPU's behave like CPU's the way you address them. Today you can implement new tech without having to wait for a new GPU generation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying DX12, not at all, it just that we didn't hear anything about DX in a long time, and now we have to wait 2 more years, sounds like a lot.

 

[AnandThenMan]

We already know DX12 capable hardware in the form of Haswell, Fermi, Kepler and Maxwell. And Fermi goes back to 2010.

DX12 capable is a very open term. You could make a 9700 pro DX12 capable if you wrote the API to specifically target the the hardware. What matters is hardware features. Put another way, Mantle currently only supports certain hardware because there has to be a cut off point to optimize resources, but going forward Mantle may support older hardware.

Your assertion is that Nvidia has some sort of advantage because they have "DX12 capable" hardware going back to 2010, but in reality AMD has effectively the same going back to 2009.

 

[Adampa1006]

From the MS FAQ, they are expecting and targeting DX12 games to be released Holiday 2015. Kinda sucks its that long of a wait and its probably gonna be even longer. Especially for full Dx12 "only" games like Crysis 3 and BF3 to fully take advantage will probably be more years after

 

[sontin]

Just to be clear, this isn't some "feature level 11.0" technicality, is it?
anyway, i didn't want to rule out mantle cause of microsoft's propensity to screw things up...but yea, it looks like it's gonna beat out mantle at this point.

There will be a DX12 runtime and a new feature level. The runtime will go down to hardware from 2010 and will run on other plattforms like Windows RT and Phone, too.

A little bit like DX11.2 API and feature level 11.2.

 

[AnandThenMan]

There will be a DX12 runtime and a new feature level. The runtime will go down to hardware from 2010

Correction 2009.

 

[toyota]

so talk, demos and blogs? when is this actually coming out and when will games have this? its asinine that an i5/i7 cant even stay above 60 fps in some cases and these miniscule cpu performance increases are a joke.

 

[sontin]

Correction 2009.

Fermi was released 2010. D:

 

[Noctifer616]

when is this actually coming out and when will games have this?

According to MS the first games running DX12 should be out in the holiday season of 2015.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Fermi was released 2010. D:

Is there some reason you think Evergreen can't support in hardware the same thing as Fermi? Or are you going only by some press releases instead of using common sense.

 

[norseamd]

When did CDProjektRed and Bethesda ever claim that Witcher 2 and Skyrim, respectively, were developed for DirectX 11? I recall CDProjektRed in particular being pretty transparent that they weren't making the game for DirectX 11.

Bethesda cant even make a game that doesnt use ancient (x87) code on it and people claim their games were developed for DX11? Riiiight.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/The-Elder-Scrolls-Skyrim-Todd-Howard-RPG-DirectX-11,12495.html

right here

and i remember reading about how skyrim did not even have good code for dx 9 or even windows or pc so thankyou pbg

 

[toyota]

According to MS the first games running DX12 should be out in the holiday season of 2015.

yeah I just saw that. so still well over another 1.5 years of poorly optimized games that require brute force. lol

 

[norseamd]

so did microsoft say anything on the platform that dx 12 will come on? is windows 9 required?

 

[AnandThenMan]

so did microsoft say anything on the platform that dx 12 will come on? is windows 9 required?

Microsoft did not specify, only saying that they are "aware" of the demand for Win7 support.

 

[sontin]

Is there some reason you think Evergreen can't support in hardware the same thing as Fermi? Or are you going only by some press releases instead of using common sense.

The same reason why AMD doesn't support Mantle on anything older than GCN. And AMD would have said something more about the support if they had had the architecture for it.

/edit: Here from AMD: https://twitter.com/Thracks

 

[Grooveriding]

so did microsoft say anything on the platform that dx 12 will come on? is windows 9 required?

I'm guessing yes. Microsoft can hardly get anyone to upgrade to Win 8 as it stands. Forcing a new API to be tied to an OS is one of the few ways they can convince people to upgrade.

Also, considering DX12 is almost two years away, I think it's even more likely they will tie it in to Windows 9's release.

Sounds like AMD caught nvidia and MS with their pants down with Mantle. They are talking up DX12 now, an API two years away with a few obtuse powerpoint slides...

 

[Jodell88]

Whats the development timecycle for OpenGL for example?

You can't compare OpenGL to DirectX development cycles because it will definitely be an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[MutantGith]

The wording in that press release sounds almost exactly what AMD has been saying about Mantle since it was announced. It's uncanny.

Since I'm finding the rapid fire repetition of the same sentiment incredibly frustrating, I'll try and say this once and retire.

The reason that this sounds a lot like Mantle presentations, and Mantle in turn sounds almost exactly like presentations about lowering overhead in OpenGL from last year, and from Steam and....so on and so on is because it isn't a new idea, and not a really revolutionary one.

This is also the same reason that AMD can run around and say that people had been asking them for something like Mantle, and Microsoft can say that they've been working on DX 12 for years, and Microsoft can say that they have been trying to roll out some of the DX 11.x optimizations from XBOX to PC, and Valve can say that they've been working on OpenGL rendering due to advantages...etc.

It's because it's a pretty well known sentiment that developers with high skill sets have known that they could do more and better if there was less overhead impacting their rendering, and if they could implement things like compute, sound, and AI in a more smoothly managed environment. Everyone agrees on this, has wanted it, and will be helped by it. It's just that, due to the console hardware anchoring development for AAA titles so low for so long, the energy to fight against inertia hasn't fully gained critical mass until recently.

That, and frankly, the aggressive marketing campaign that managed to convince a huge number of people that there was something massively wrong with DX over night. Now I'm not saying that there aren't inefficiencies inherent in the system, but from what I've understood that's been relatively well documented for years, ... but suddenly, in the face of an alternative, it's become a CRISIS!!!!. Microsoft is conspiring to limit people's speed!!!

API's will be better optimized for multi-threading, bi-directional compute, lower overhead, more aggressive memory management...etc going forward. That's just the way it is. Hopefully, we'll get to a point where, once again, people can find a balance where whatever API they are using will offer a good balance of raw power and ease of use so that the majority of people can have a common gaming experience without having to resort to game specific autoexec files to boot everytime they want to play.

And hopefully people can cool out and pray that the ride to that point doesn't involve even more fractious infighting and finger pointing than has already gone on with regard to the beginnings of this movement.

 

[norseamd]

developers are always working on more features and such.

anything that shows that microsoft has been specifically working dx 12 on being low level for 4 years?

 

[AnandThenMan]

MutantGith the clear differentiation is that AMD went out and did something about it, Mantle is here and it works extremely well. Imagine if AMD had come out with all those Mantle slides and then said well, expect it hopefully before the end of 2015. They would have been endlessly mocked.

Also this:

@TheMattB81 @repi DX12 it's Microsoft's own creation, but we're hugely enthusiastic supporters of any low-overhead API. ​

That's an "uh oh" moment for me, I don't have much faith that Microsoft can create efficient coded anything quite frankly. Here's the thing, AMD hardware will benefit from DX12 just as Nvidia will. Nvidia will still be at the mercy of Microsoft, AMD will not because they have Mantle.

 

[Carfax83]

Interesting, it appears that DX12's multithreading is a highly improved and more efficient version of the DX11 multithreading technique which uses command lists to record and upload data to the GPU:

Direct3D 12 introduces a new model for work submission based on command lists that contain the entirety of information needed to execute a particular workload on the GPU. Each new command list contains information such as which PSO to use, what texture and buffer resources are needed, and the arguments to all draw calls. Because each command list is self-contained and inherits no state, the driver can pre-compute all necessary GPU commands up-front and in a free-threaded manner. The only serial process necessary is the final submission of command lists to the GPU via the command queue, which is a highly efficient process

Source

What does this mean? It means that NVidia's drivers will already be optimized for DX12 to a great extent, as NVidia has been fine tuning it's drivers for DX11 multithreading for years..

That was one of my concerns with DX12. NVidia spent all of that time and resources refactoring their driver codebase for DX11 multithreading, but if DX12 was similar to Mantle, then all of that effort would have been for naught. But now we know that DX12 uses a similar, but vastly improved multithreading technique as DX11..

AMD on the other hand, has never bothered to implement DX11 multithreading, so they will have a lot of work to do catching up to NVidia...

So all of those people like Charlie that are saying DX12 is a rip off or copy of Mantle are incorrect. DX12 appears to be a more evolved and refined version of DX11.

 

[DeathReborn]

so did microsoft say anything on the platform that dx 12 will come on? is windows 9 required?

Windows 8.1 or later for DX12.

 

[AnandThenMan]

DX12 appears to be a more evolved and refined version of DX11.

That's unfortunate, I was hoping for more of a clean sheet approach.