DirectX and OpenGL to get low level access according to leaked statements (GDC 2014)

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TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
Software development must be pretty easy since thousands of people do it. There is no reason for them to beta test according to your posts logic. Hop off the amd hate train and at least be rational when you post.

I was actually under the impression that mantle is alpha software with beta drivers. I thought at GPU 14 they said mantle us alpha currently and sometime late 2014 or 2015 it will go beta and be opened up for other developers who want to try it.

No reason to let facts get in the way of a good rant.

And youre right, alpha API:beta drivers.
 

Rezist

Senior member
Jun 20, 2009
726
0
71
Even after this announcement it will be years before anything gets set into motion from any of these camps.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
Mutant - stands to reason that if devs are currently willing to code specifically for Mantle *now*, then more devs would be more willing to when half the job (CPU multi-threading) is already done in DX12.

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If they get multi-threading and lower level draw calls from DX, so that their game is never CPU bottlenecked, why would they bother also adding Mantle support? It seems if DX were made to be good enough, there would be no need to bother coding for another API.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Looks like I won't be buying either console. PC for me is the way to go this generation. I don't think any other generation was so favorable to PC. Guess I'll miss Halo though. It's not a $560 game.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
That assumes that their Mantle strategy isn't to cause exactly this sort of development, which to me seems entirely possible.

That's because too many people only see the nVidia and Microsoft mindset of making everything exclusive and locking out other venders. They don't actually pay any attention to the way AMD conducts business. AMD prefers open standards whenever possible. When they introduce a new feature they don't eliminate the competition from using it. This helps the adoption and expansion of the feature, which is their goal.

You know, most of today's safety features that are incorporated into automobiles were pioneered by Volvo. They have never tried to monopolize them and lock them out from free use by other manufacturers. Not all companies do business the same way.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
0
0
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If they get multi-threading and lower level draw calls from DX, so that their game is never CPU bottlenecked, why would they bother also adding Mantle support? It seems if DX were made to be good enough, there would be no need to bother coding for another API.

Mantle is more than just CPU multi-threading support.

  • Reduction of command buffers submissions
  • Explicit control of resource compression, expands and synchronizations
  • Asynchronous DMA queue for data uploads independent from the graphics engine
  • Asynchronous compute queue for overlapping of compute and graphics workloads
  • Data formats optimizations via flexible buffer/image access
  • Advanced Anti-Aliasing features for MSAA/EQAA optimizations
The vast majority of which we haven't seen yet. If the CPU multi-threading is mostly a copy/paste job, the devs will have more time to do the GPU stuff above.

Edit - I should add that a lot of this is the "fun" stuff that the devs would actually want to do.
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
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DX 12? DX11.2 is the big leap. DX works fine for me. There is a slim chance I would ever try Mantle for BF4 again, it looked terrible and stuttered.

How many years has it been around and how many games have used it? Oh, and how long has it been working well? How good is it working in Win 7? Mantle is supposed to come out though and be used in every new game by all hardware manufacturers from release day one or it's a failure, according to you. Come on, now!
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
Mantle is more than just CPU multi-threading support.

  • Reduction of command buffers submissions
  • Explicit control of resource compression, expands and synchronizations
  • Asynchronous DMA queue for data uploads independent from the graphics engine
  • Asynchronous compute queue for overlapping of compute and graphics workloads
  • Data formats optimizations via flexible buffer/image access
  • Advanced Anti-Aliasing features for MSAA/EQAA optimizations
The vast majority of which we haven't seen yet. If the CPU multi-threading is mostly a copy/paste job, the devs will have more time to do the GPU stuff above.

Edit - I should add that a lot of this is the "fun" stuff that the devs would actually want to do.

The problem is the game will still have to be coded to work with both API's, so it is highly unlikely they'd really go too far into using special Mantle features, unless both can achieve the same. At least in BF4, the only notable improvements with Mantle is reducing the CPU bottlenecks. Which is a big deal, but if that can be done through DX, then Mantle won't be needed.

Unless they plan to do PhysX like fluff, Mantle wouldn't be that appealing. The heart of the game still has to work for both Mantle and DX.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
0
0
The problem is the game will still have to be coded to work with both API's, so it is highly unlikely they'd really go too far into using special Mantle features, unless both can achieve the same. At least in BF4, the only notable improvements with Mantle is reducing the CPU bottlenecks. Which is a big deal, but if that can be done through DX, then Mantle won't be needed.

Unless they plan to do PhysX like fluff, Mantle wouldn't be that appealing. The heart of the game still has to work for both Mantle and DX.

It will depend on a lot of different factors.

BF4 wasn't the best example to start with for sure. It wasn't coded for Mantle from the ground up (it'll probably be a year before we see any games like that) and we all know it was beset by stability issues of which fixing rightly took precedence over Mantle.

In the end, the "easy" job for the biggest gains will be CPU multi-threading, but BF4 already did a remarkable job there - at least in SP.

"PhysX like fluff" is certainly possible with Mantle and I have no doubts we'll start to see some of that. But lets say for example that AMD pays for Mantle implementation in games - if DX12 or whatever already makes a perfectly good job of CPU multi-threading, then the devs are going to be left with no alternative but do some of the GPU optimizations.

It's not like they're going to go to AMD as say "Here is your Mantle implementation - oh btw it's the exact same performance of the DX12 version but thanks for the million bucks anyway".

AMD is still learning about it as well, and they'll learn what to ask for in return for the money or GE support or whatever. Even just 2 or 3 of those GPU optimizations on the list could be 15-20% performance, which is basically guaranteed extra performance because no game should be CPU limited again...
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
0
0
I should add that it's likely that MS won't just copy the CPU multi-threading for DX12. There's little reason that I can see for them not to copy the memory model as well, for example.
 
Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
126
That's because too many people only see the nVidia and Microsoft mindset of making everything exclusive and locking out other venders. They don't actually pay any attention to the way AMD conducts business. AMD prefers open standards whenever possible. When they introduce a new feature they don't eliminate the competition from using it. This helps the adoption and expansion of the feature, which is their goal.

You know, most of today's safety features that are incorporated into automobiles were pioneered by Volvo. They have never tried to monopolize them and lock them out from free use by other manufacturers. Not all companies do business the same way.

Mantle, despite the vague promises to make it open and that it will run on other hardware, is right now the *epitome* of a closed system. Not only do other vendors not have access to the API, it only will run on AMD hardware.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
That assumes that their Mantle strategy isn't to cause exactly this sort of development, which to me seems entirely possible.

exactly. because their APUs have problem with CPU performance and could benefit most from lower overhead.
 

el etro

Golden Member
Jul 21, 2013
1,581
14
81
Not to mention it would help their lacky APUs foward to remove some of the CPU bottleneck where they falled behind Intel.

This history is voluntary PR.

AMD is nothing but depressed now that Microsoft acted so quick on the matter. And they should be, not just because they don`t have Mantle to lure people in with, but because DirectX is universal while Mantle only works on GCN GPUs. DirectX is not brand specific. It does not try to favour any system.

Mantle can be universal since its not tied to Windows. What about Mantle on SteamOS/Linux/PS4/Xone/Windows7/Windows8...?









To this day I have yet to see Mantle provide something that could even be remotely considered "gotta-have."

So after not much luck with the previous beta version I was unsure what to expect but have to say I am impressed. FPS is massively improved, 90-120 FPS constant (capped at 120) on a 64 player map, and the release is now stable with no crashes for me. There was a bit of a blip when I first launched BF4 as it started full screen with a border and didn't like being changed to full screen borderless; game hung for a while but then recovered and I was able to make / reverse the change numerous times without further issues.

Video memory use increased by about 600-800 MB but that might be what has contributed to the improved FPS, maybe the driver is utilising the video memory better?

I did think it had caused an issue with throttling the CPU, which I haven't suffered with, but then realised one of the fans on my MSI Gaming R9 290 was stuck again (a different fan to last time this happened). I will have to keep an eye on this but it is easy to detect via the GPU temp in MSI Afterburner and fan speed (when the fan speed is hitting 90% I know there is an issue!)

Andy
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=25925026&postcount=1
 

el etro

Golden Member
Jul 21, 2013
1,581
14
81
With Mantle drivers in good state, what about a Linux/SteamOS version of BF4??



Maybe AMD will lose money and Mantle will die off prematurely,

My bet: Not all money and effort was lost for AMD. In future we could end surprised discovering how much of Mantle tech ended on DX12/NewOGL.


There are a lot of tricks optimizations that are done purely to limit cpu overhead that effect the artists.

Yep, and include Microsoft compliance on it. Now that they are seeing that PC market is staying strong and growing(And showing a brighter future) unlike the console, they decided to invest in PC gaming.
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Mantle, despite the vague promises to make it open and that it will run on other hardware, is right now the *epitome* of a closed system. Not only do other vendors not have access to the API, it only will run on AMD hardware.

Did you read the post you responded to? Your response doesn't speak to the subject of the post at all.

On Topic: It's pretty obvious with this development that contrary to many here with the opinion that DX is just fine and we don't need anything that Mantle offers, we must because M$ and Kronos is now offering to do the same thing with DX and OpenGL. The other HW vendors are on board as well. This is great! We are now getting the industry united, not fragmented as predicted by the gloom and doom brigade, behind this moving in the same direction. Embrace it. It's a good thing.
 

FiendishMind

Member
Aug 9, 2013
60
14
81
That's because too many people only see the nVidia and Microsoft mindset of making everything exclusive and locking out other venders. They don't actually pay any attention to the way AMD conducts business. AMD prefers open standards whenever possible. When they introduce a new feature they don't eliminate the competition from using it. This helps the adoption and expansion of the feature, which is their goal.

You know, most of today's safety features that are incorporated into automobiles were pioneered by Volvo. They have never tried to monopolize them and lock them out from free use by other manufacturers. Not all companies do business the same way.

How many times has AMD taken the initiative, pioneered a new feature first, by themselves and ultimately kept it open? I can only think of a few cases. AMD very rarely has the appropriate leverage or market share to provide a successful proprietary feature.

Any company that actively supports open standards should be commended but in AMD's case I doubt they actually prefer it, they simply have no other choice.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
How many times has AMD taken the initiative, pioneered a new feature first, by themselves and ultimately kept it open? I can only think of a few cases. AMD very rarely has the appropriate leverage or market share to provide a successful proprietary feature.

Any company that actively supports open standards should be commended but in AMD's case I doubt they actually prefer it, they simply have no other choice.

In the end their motivation isn't relevant to you and me. It's just the end result that matters.
 

dacostafilipe

Senior member
Oct 10, 2013
772
244
116
Tiled resources.in 11.2 were announced months before Mantle.

Tiled resources is a great example of why we need a more CTM API.

With a CTM-like API, it's possible to do tiled resources on hardware (!) without having to wait for a new version of the API (like on DX/OGL).

This is big as you can implement modern tech without having to wait for MS or Khronos.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
Mantle can be universal since its not tied to Windows. What about Mantle on SteamOS/Linux/PS4/Xone/Windows7/Windows8...?

There is no Mantle on consoles and never will be. So just stop it there with the BS.

Universal term doesnt apply to 18% of the PC market, and shrinking.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
DirectX and OpenGL enhancements was announced and in terms of OpenGL already done way before Mantle. And the state of Mantle shows it was rushed.

MS announced they are working on using the Xbox One API on the PC. And thats not DirectX 12.
 

Cloudfire777

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2013
1,787
95
91
Well considering the sdk hasn't been released yet and it's still beta software, it's asking a bit much. I don't see why AMD should detail how Nvidia can make use of it anyway?

All of the devs who have access to it so far have said that there is nothing inherently preventing Nvidia from using Mantle though. It's not hard-wired to GCN. Why not believe them?




A) Why should anyone support an additional API that will bring more cost to game development not to mention it will take more time than just releasing the game on DX which is universal, well known which also looks like it will be optimized too?

B) "Mantle does not have to be AMD specific"
Translation: "You are more than welcome to use our API, but there have to something in it for us too. Either pay license rights or we can trade license. You get to use Mantle, we get something thats dear to Nvidia/Intel"

Why do you think that NO ONE, neither Intel or Nvidia have issued out a statement saying they will support Mantle as well?
Because they know it only benefits AMD and they would rather see their companies go bankrupt instead of cheaping out to their competitor which sole purpose was to use Mantle as a marketing tool and a way to gain grounds in the industry.
 
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