Disappointed by Ati AIW Radion32 DDR horid software and no support for good ones-- UPDATE!! Read this Thread!! I changed my Mind!!! OH Boy Oh Boy!!!

[rbV5]

Not WinCE, where did that come from? Another member on another thread is using Win98se as is OS, and he can capture with VirtualDub.

Im still wondering about what venomhed said about mmc 7.1, am I wrong, but it looks to me that that version is for the "TV Wonder" not the radeon. How does that work?

 

[TungFree]

I misremembered you said Win98se

 

[fobbman]

I've got an AIW arriving within the week and I was wondering if anyone has tried AVI_IO for video capture on these? I used it with my POS Pinnacle DC10+ and it was great. Avery has done an excellent job with Virtual Dub, but AVI_IO tended to drop fewer frames.

Also I saw some discussion regarding being able to capture in WDM format with VirtualDub. If my memory serves me correctly Avery was using WDM for awhile but then got a nasty letter from Microsoft which made it so that he could no longer use WDM. Those of you who have it working might very well have an older version of VirtualDub.

I look forward to getting my card.

 

[venomhed]

I believe in the Special Purpose drivers on the ATI site there are two MMC 7.1. The thing is when I tried to install 7.1 NONE of my MMC programs say 7.1 anywhere. Also the install just didn't seem to work right so maybe the MMC7.1 does NOT work on the AIW.

Im not at my home machine so I cant verify all this.

BTW just streamed a Seymour Butts video from the VCR to DivX low (2000 bit rate). MAN the quality was VERY nice, really good. Now Im going to separate and compress the audio and video down even more (TMpeg). I want to see if I can get it on 1 cd. Also tried Pegasus MJPEG and recorded at like 720X576 with NO frames lost, quality setting on 18 of 20.

Basically this card is working EXACTLY like the RAge 128 Pro. Thank god! So now this is a GREAT card, but the drivers are extremely scary and unprofessional. Im no driver write but christ I've never seen so many problems before.

 

[rbV5]

Yea, I was looking at the site and I couldn't find where it was for the AIW, and I'm using 7.0 but hey its working right! I've had no driver problems withe Radeon so I guess its "your mileage may vary"

fobbman, I hadn't heard of that program, I'll look for it, and I'm using VirtualDub 1.4c build 11759

Update: Just installed AV_IO, ran the program, had video right off. Did a simple capture with default settings and it worked great. I like it! very small and easy to use. Thanks for the heads up fobbman!

 

[WetWilly]

Well, it looks like the AIW Radeon doesn't have hardware MPEG-2 encoding. I was looking over at Ligos and their LSX Suite and stumbled across their GoMotion MPEG software SDK. Kind of interesting. A couple of items:

1) Quote from Ligos:
The GoMotion SDK provides application developers the ability to add real time MPEG encoding (and non-real time transcoding) functionality to their Windows DirectShow-based digital video applications. Also included is an SDK to add these functions to Video for Windows applications; an optimized MPEG-2 decoding filter capable of providing simultaneous decoding while encoding in the background (timeshifting or live pause), and; sample applications to help guide you through a speedy development process.

So, you don't need hardware to do timeshifting or live pause. Also note that VFW support is an option, not mandatory. Sound familiar?

2) ATI uses GoMotion on the AIW 128/128 Pro - in fact, they state it right on the AIW 128 webpage - which has all the features of the AIW Radeon except TV-on-Demand features, but it has VFW support (see #1). As for TV-on-Demand, timeshifting/live pause was added by Ligos as a GoMotion option relatively recently.

3) The GoMotion CPU requirements for encoding look an awful lot like what ATI lists for all AIW family members that support MPEG2.

4) Matrox dumped hardware encoding on their consumer-level TV/capture product, the G450 eTV, which has features much like the AIW Radeon. Guess what they licensed? You got it, GoMotion.

5) If the AIW Radeon did have true/dedicated hardware MPEG encoding, I'm sure ATI would have plastered that fact all over everything.

Does all this matter? If you're happy with your vid captures (which it looks like a lot of people in this thread are), then probably not.

 

[fobbman]

No problem rbv5! Glad I could offer up some assistance before I even get my card!

I spent a very long and frustrating year with my DC10+ card, reading a LOT of info on different websites and collecting various shareware and freeware programs in hopes of finding a magical solution to the A/V synch issues that the card had. Honestly, I should have billed them for my psychiatric visit copays during that time.

While I'm not a Premiere user, I did have fun using Ulead's Media Studio Pro and look forward to using that in the future again. Nice package, especially when Egghead was selling it for ~$50 on auction.

Hope I can be of help,
David

 

[rbV5]

Cool, I've just used Premiere for awhile so I'm comfortable with it. I used to use it to edit 3d animations and stock footage that I play around with also, but video is my newest passion.

BTW, I just burned my first VCD compliant CD, and I find that the ATI VCD player doesn't play mode 2 VCD's It plays the mpeg *.dat file with the file player(so does WMP) no problem) but I dont have a set top DVD player to test it. dang it! The resulting Video quality is suprisingly very good. I'm totally impressed! Now if my VHS collection coverts to VCD even close to this quality, I am going to be one happy guy!

 

[ZenOps]

Yes, that is exactly what happens when ripping a DVD. If you care about quality (and you are not illegally ripping a DVD) you should have an uncompressed master somewhere, possible still on "analog" 35mm film.

A Divx coded directly from a 35mm will look much better than a Divx Mpeg-4 ripped from a Mpeg-2 DVD coded off a 35mm.

A Jpeg will always look better when converted directly from a Raw image format like BMP or PNG, Jpeging a previously Jpegged picture will always look worse.

 

[rbV5]

ZenOps, I understand what your saying, but "never" is such a definate word. For instance, I just finished burning a VCD from a mpeg-2 capture I did just a bit ago. I compressed that capture into a VCD compliant mpeg-1 file and burned it to a CD. The resulting final was suprisingly good, excellent I would say considering the mpeg2 capture I made was of only mid quality so that I wouldn't drop frames, and I basically just used default vaues.

I'm sure that if I had captured uncompressed video and then compressed to mpeg-1, no doubt about it, the quality would be better, perhaps much better, and capturing off my VHS it may be the ONLY way to get acceptable final quality, but for the lack of a spare hardrive, I don't have the room for uncompressed captures of feature film length, sometimes you gotta use what ya got!

 

[TungFree]

I came accros a site for DivX and the family of support programs ranging in the near 4 dozen. I downloades the divX codecs 1, 2, and 3. and have no idea what DIVX players to download or what els is of value. would be sweet if those of u who know what is what can recommend the list to download. It is a site that also does some explanations to theose that want to know what DIVX is.
From what I read in the last 1/2 dozen posts this may be well timed -- or may be worth zerro. Do tell..
Fobman thank you for contributing what almost drove u insane LOL
WetWilly Interesting set of information... as was your former input wherin you layed out the IRQ imprtance of its funtions. I learn from your inputs.
rbV5 you are the man with the results... bravo I want to do that too and soon!!

PS forgot to add the site lol:
DIVX progs site

 

[TGCid]

TungFree,

From www.divx-digest.com roundups of DIVX player, the BSPlayer comes out top. This is what I am using and is sufficient so far. Of course, as you already know, these types of program are updated almost every week. By now, there is probably a player with more features at hand. If you are just looking for a plain high quality player to view videos, the BSPlayer is hard to beat.

 

[WetWilly]

Without trying to starting a flame war, I've got to say that I'm not sure why DiVX is so much hotter than SVCDs at this point in time. I know that DiVX/MPEG-4 is developing rapidly with the open source movement and everything, but there are no definite standards yet and for practicality's sake SVCD is a lot more useful. I've done several DiVX rips from DVD to CD to play with it, and while I've gotten good results from the rips I've found that:

1) With DiVX you can get a DVD onto a single CD with passable quality, but if you want very good quality, you'll need to use at least 2 CDs.
2) With SVCD, you can get ~60 minutes of good quality and ~50 minutes of excellent quality audio and video (almost no pixelation at all and multichannel/downmixed 5.1 MPEG-2 audio) on a 80 min CD-R, so many movies will fit on 2 CDs anyway. Can also get a one hour TV episode on one disc.
3) Many of the software DVD players can play SVCDs
4) The BIG reason - I can use SVCDs on my standalone DVD player (a Pioneer DV-333, although most Pioneers will play SVCD and some XVCDs & XSVCDs). If I'm going to spend all that time encoding a video, I'd at least like to be able to see it on a TV as well as the computer monitor. In fact, I've found that SVCDs look better displayed on my TV than on my computer.

When standalones can play DiVX, I'd probably change my mind. But if I'm going to spend 8-10 hours encoding a movie, I'd like a bit more flexibility than DiVX offers right now.

 

[rbV5]

I like the idea of SVCD myself, but because you need a software DVD player to play them, most people would be left-out. Thats probably why Divx is more popular. Anyone can freely download the codec and play it on their computer. I also have a couple of single CD Divx of excellent quality, but most excellent ones do take 2CD's.

I burned a pretty nice VCD yesterday, how do SVCD stand up quality wise? What is the resolution for instance?I want to convert my VHS to CD's, and I want the highest quality I can find. So far my best efforts have been mpg2 capture>compress to VCD compliant Mpg1>burn to CD.

 

[WetWilly]

you need a software DVD player to play them

There's a freeware/shareware player for SVCD out there. Unfortunately since I've gotten both PowerDVD and WinDVD in bundles, I don't remember the name of it.

how do SVCD stand up quality wise? What is the resolution for instance?

Definitely better than VCD. If you go by the specs (more on that later), SVCD supports a maximum bitrate more than twice that of VCDs. I've tried both VCD and SVCD, and if the conversion is done properly, the rule of thumb is true - VCD is equivalent to a very good VHS tape with some pixellation in high motion/action scenes; SVCD is better than VHS and a touch below DVD. Because of the higher supported bitrate (and if you use it), you can reduce the likelihood of pixellation in SVCDs. The specs for SVCD are a resolution of 480x480 NTSC, 480x576 PAL, with a maximum video bitrate of 2.5Mbps and a maximum audio bitrate of 224kbps.

Here's where it gets interesting. Some players support noncompliant S/VCDs, which are generally labeled extended VCDs or XVCD/XSVCD. A good number of players that support SVCDs will play VCDs made at a higher/non-compliant bitrate. Off the top of my head, the Apex players, for example, will play S/VCDs with a bitrate up to 3.5Mbps. They'll also support non-standard resolutions, so when I was playing/testing I made an SVCDs with a 720x480 resolution at a 2.5Mbps bitrate. The joke is that the software players wouldn't play that particular XSVCD at all, but my Pioneer standalone played it like a champ. However, for compatibility I've stuck to the standard specs. The SVCD quality on the ripped DVDs is awfully good - better than VCD and much, much better than a dub to tape. Like I said above, I'm happy enough with it to question to value of DiVX (to me at least) at the moment.

If you're judging the quality of S/VCD, don't - I repeat, DON'T - look at commercial S/VCDs. I've seen several, and the quality was average to poor. In fact I'd ripped from DVD a few discs that I'd seen on commercial VCD. The rips I made from DVD were 10 times better than the commercial discs - sharper, with better color and sound.

I want to convert my VHS to CD's, and I want the highest quality I can find.

Quality-wise, if you want standards-compliant discs that'll work in a standalone player, you'd probably be better off with SVCD because of the higher supported bitrate. VCDs would probably be easier because I'd guess you'll capture at the native resolution for VCD (352x240). SVCD's higher bitrate really makes a difference in reducing pixellation. The only thing is that you'll have to resize/letterbox the video for SVCD because of the difference in resolution. The other option is a non-standard/XVCD captured at 352x240 with a higher bitrate. The Pioneers will support VCDs with a bitrate up to 2.5Mbps, so those discs would actually work in a decent number of players. That would be the best balance between ease of capture/conversion and quality.

 

[rbV5]

WetWilly! you are a wealth of info, I appreciate you taking the time. I use Nero and it supports SVCD, so it looks like time to start playing around, looks like that may be the way to archive my old video's and VHS tapes. Now time to get that new hardrive....thanks again

 

[WetWilly]

No prob. I use Nero as well, and it does the basics well - put the disc in the standalone DVD player, and it works fine. The Pioneer DVD-333 is great because it'll play pretty much any media you throw at it - CD-R or CD-RW. Nice thing about Nero is that it lets you know if your MPEG file is standards compliant, and if not you can override and burn it anyway.

If you're interested in adding menus/opening screens to your S/VCDs, Nero 5.5, which is supposed to be out soon, adds a LOT of authoring features. It would be nice to select a still frame from the video and use it as a opening/title screen much like the menu that comes up on a DVD.

Good luck - and that additional hard drive will definitely help.

 

[TungFree]

WetWilly,
I started to answer your post earlier and had to shut down b4 finnishing. I pretty much had said the same thing that rbV5 said you are contributing valuable wealth of information that is to the point of the ongoing considerations for decision making Process that we face. like NicColt and rbV5 you detail your information in palatable orderly way, with facts numbers names and comparisons. Malalo! (Hawaiian Thank you)

 

[TungFree]

TGCid,
I downloaded the BsPlayer and added it to the list of my tools. Mahalo to u too

 

[velvtelvis]

all this trouble to avoid using a mac . . .

the lengths people go to for dogma

 

[WetWilly]

Glad to contribute. I've been rather fascinated that SVCDs don't get more attention here in the US. Part of that may be a cultural/economics thing, since VCD players are ridiculously commonplace and dirt cheap in Asia - heck, there's even a PlayStation addon that lets the game console play VCDs. There'a a growing number of people dealing with the problem of what to do with older, archived VHS videos, and SVCD or XVCD is really the optimal choice - in terms of space, compatibility, and quality - at the moment, as long as you get a DVD player that supports them. I suppose dubbing to DV is an option, but ANY tape is subject to physical deterioration.

That said, I'm still pondering what I'm going to do - Dazzle DVC II, separate capture card (TV Wonder), or AIW:

1) The Dazzle is tempting - users that have it working absolutely rave about it; those that don't want to take a hammer to it, Dazzle, and Dazzle's tech support as well - REAL high frustration level. I'd read a few SVCD tips from a guy who went through a lot (much like Nic Colt did with the AIW Radeon) to get it working, but once he got it working he was spitting out SVCDs of archived VHS tapes and current TV shows like crazy. He'd burned something like 150-200 SVCDs in a real short period of time. Upside - true MPEG-2 hardware real-time encoder, convenient external breakout box for inputs/outputs. Downsides? It doesn't have a tuner, but you can use a VCR or DBS/dish as a tuner. No default TV-on-Demand features, either. HAS to have its own IRQ. Software works, but is apparently still a work-in-progress. Costs ~$225

2) Separate capture card - capture uncompressed video to hard drive, encode to MPEG-2 later. Cheap, can get very good quality MPEG-2 video. Downside - very CPU intensive and a bit time consuming.

3) AIW Radeon - capture real-time MPEG-2. One slot solution, time-shifting, digital VCR. Downside - not terribly enthused about chucking my modded GeForce2. Also not enthused about having the video input permanently married to the video card, since I change video cards every 6-8 months. Costs about the same as the Dazzle.

Decisions, decisions. Sigh.

 

[TGCid]

WetWilly,

You are in the same fix as I am. I think I am finally going to order a Radeon 64mb VIVO and follow this guide from Doom9's forum to record. The positive thing is that I need a video card upgrade anyway (TnT2 Ultra currently) and this card is as good a value as it gets for me.

 

[rbV5]

TGCid, thanks for that link to Doom9, interesting thread. WetWilly, keep your modded GeForce2 and get the AIW SDR PCI!

 

[NicColt]

>Update: Just installed AV_IO, ran the program, had video right off.

Damm U ... as I tie a noose around my neck and secure it to the rafters.... NO WAIT Win2k may be able to cure my pain.

BTW there is a new MMC7.1 for Win2k/98/ME at rage3d.com and the ATI support site. But it obviously doens't have the DVD player since that has licensing issues. either install it over but it's recommended that you unintall and re-install MMC7.1 and then goto original CD and DVD folder and intall DVD player there.

EDIT: Does ANYONE know how to install the WDM Video for Windows (win32) driver model

 

[NicColt]

>BTW just streamed a Seymour Butts video from the VCR to DivX low (2000 bit rate)

LOL nice butt are you saying that you are capturing from the VCR? that's using the composite connectors???? can you record and play more than 30 seconds???? please tell me you can't because I will have to take that noose out again.