Discussion about rights to bear arms

[spidey07]

Thanks. The news doesn't often give answers like this one. In discussions on TV all to often the views are polarised and only the extreme points are considered news worthy.

I guess it doesn't make good headlines to say "most Americans aren't bothered by guns in their everyday lives, grocery shopping continues as normal".

You only get the Charlton Hestons or the school massacres making the news.

That's correct. Defensive use of firearms is hardly EVER reported.

Polls show Americans do not want more gun regulations.

 

[JulesMaximus]

That's correct. Defensive use of firearms is hardly EVER reported.

Polls show Americans do not want more gun regulations.

I'd bet those polls would be skewed differently if done today.

Kiss your guns goodbye. And you can thank lunatic gun owners who go on shooting sprees for that.

 

[Arkaign]

Thanks. The news doesn't often give answers like this one. In discussions on TV all to often the views are polarised and only the extreme points are considered news worthy.

I guess it doesn't make good headlines to say "most Americans aren't bothered by guns in their everyday lives, grocery shopping continues as normal".

You only get the Charlton Hestons or the school massacres making the news.

To a large extent that is true.

I certainly wish there was less crime of all types, but I don't look at that as a failure of laws. All of these crimes are already illegal anyway, I look at it more in terms of the mental and economic health of a society is beneficial to lowering crime.

I don't live in fear of the common ownership of firearms, similarly to how I don't fear terrorism in the least. After 9/11 and with the huge paranoia about terrorists, I looked at it mathematically, and dismissed the terrorists as impotent, incompetent, meaningless fools. I'm stratospherically more likely to be killed by lightning, a car accident, a random infectious disease, etc, than I ever am of being killed by a terrorist. I always though it was ridiculous that so many championed the Patriot Act and massive military sacrifices over the relatively minute threat that terrorists pose, when on any given day countless more people are killed by much more mundane things.

 

[waggy]

To a large extent that is true.

I certainly wish there was less crime of all types, but I don't look at that as a failure of laws. All of these crimes are already illegal anyway, I look at it more in terms of the mental and economic health of a society is beneficial to lowering crime.

I don't live in fear of the common ownership of firearms, similarly to how I don't fear terrorism in the least. After 9/11 and with the huge paranoia about terrorists, I looked at it mathematically, and dismissed the terrorists as impotent, incompetent, meaningless fools. I'm stratospherically more likely to be killed by lightning, a car accident, a random infectious disease, etc, than I ever am of being killed by a terrorist. I always though it was ridiculous that so many championed the Patriot Act and massive military sacrifices over the relatively minute threat that terrorists pose, when on any given day countless more people are killed by much more mundane things.

agreed.

to many are willing to give up rights people fought and died for over something that odds say will never happen to them.

 

[sixone]

I'd bet those polls would be skewed differently if done today.

Kiss your guns goodbye. And you can thank lunatic gun owners who go on shooting sprees for that.

Not gonna happen. They may tighten up laws that are already strict, but only in urban areas and mostly blue states.

There will be no changes in states that value personal responsibility.

 

[nehalem256]

Not gonna happen. They may tighten up laws that are already strict, but only in urban areas and mostly blue states.

There will be no changes in states that value personal responsibility.

Weren't the 3 big shootings this year all in Blue states?

 

[SsupernovaE]

The UK had a lower crime rate than the USA, even when the UK still had the freedom to keep and bear arms.

How well did your gun control laws keep you safe on 7/7 2005? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

I do believe the UK has an overall higher crime rate than the United States now---with the exception of homicide and rape.

But it's not like crime increased, it just fell faster in the United States.

 

[spidey07]

Weren't the 3 big shootings this year all in Blue states?

In addition to being "gun free zones".

 

[zsdersw]

Weren't the 3 big shootings this year all in Blue states?

A big shooting very nearly happened in a red state: http://news.yahoo.com/okla-teen-arrested-school-shooting-plot-184243533.html

 

[HomerJS]

If the discussion is framed for as sun safety it would be more palitable.

Few things that need to be done.

1. Ban semi-automatic weapons. This can happen w/o infringing on 2nd amendment rights.

2. Close gun show loophole

3. Tie all gun purchases to owner. Owner is responsible for gun until sold again. Stolen guns must be reported within 24 hrs.

4. Psycological profile for all gun owners. If eye tests are required for drivers license why can't we test for crazy? We have too many people out there who think problems can be solved w/guns.

 

[Jaskalas]

Arm every person with a single shot bolt action rifle. Cannot easily conceal it, easily overpowered by a crowd, but quite deadly to a select gunman. Military / police keeps their superiority in firepower and the literal word of the law is upheld.

Note I don't necessarily support this, but if Dems want to fight for the idea it might be a tangible compromise.

 

[bozack]

I'd bet those polls would be skewed differently if done today.

Kiss your guns goodbye. And you can thank lunatic gun owners who go on shooting sprees for that.

Chances are this will breathe new life into an Assault Weapons ban part deux with limited magazine capacity and more cosmetic regulation.

CT has very strict gun laws and even if made federal it sadly wouldn't have stopped this tragedy....this was owner negligence...

So unless they are going to go house to house and start collecting them I can't see any truly tangible good coming of more legislation.

 

[Zargon]

Chances are this will breathe new life into an Assault Weapons ban part deux with limited magazine capacity and more cosmetic regulation.

CT has very strict gun laws and even if made federal it sadly wouldn't have stopped this tragedy....this was owner negligence...

So unless they are going to go house to house and start collecting them I can't see any truly tangible good coming of more legislation.

he killed his mom and stole her guns

but it is her negligence I agree, and she should have had his mental issues dealt with instead of hiding it all

Arm every person with a single shot bolt action rifle. Cannot easily conceal it, easily overpowered by a crowd, but quite deadly to a select gunman. Military / police keeps their superiority in firepower and the literal word of the law is upheld.

Note I don't necessarily support this, but if Dems want to fight for the idea it might be a tangible compromise.

true politics, letter upheld, ideal destroyed

Weren't the 3 big shootings this year all in Blue states?

and they all occured in GUN FREE ZONES!


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335739/facts-about-mass-shootings-john-fund

apparantly they are down nationally, contray to media hype

NRO is fairly conservative but does clal out the rep party for being stupid on occasion

 

[sigurros81]

I am an American citizen and I don't understand our fascination with firearms either. But hey, different strokes for different folks. With that said, I am buying a handgun as a present for myself.

 

[v-600]

I can't say I really agree with the view point that because there are lots of guns, and other people have guns, I should have some too. However its been interesting discussing some of these points with normal (i.e. not on TV and no political agenda) Americans.

There are still bits I don't get, but it seems like this thread is headed the way of many others. I want to put one thing on a poll just to see the response, but figure I'll wait a while until the current furore has died down.

I don't know if its good etiquette to ask a mod to lock a thread, but it might stop this one becoming a guns good/guns bad/good/bad thread.

 

[trenchfoot]

Chances are this will breathe new life into an Assault Weapons ban part deux with limited magazine capacity and more cosmetic regulation.

CT has very strict gun laws and even if made federal it sadly wouldn't have stopped this tragedy....this was owner negligence...

So unless they are going to go house to house and start collecting them I can't see any truly tangible good coming of more legislation.

So then, shall we make owners more responsible/liable for firearms that are used in crimes due to their negligence in properly securing them? Are there statutes that presently cover this circumstance? Just asking, not taking a side on this.

edit - We can also raise the penalties on crimes committed with the use of a firearm, up to and including becoming a capital offense, if necessary.

 

[Jaskalas]

Yeah that's the ticket, dead woman really cares about her liability now...

 

[spidey07]

So then, shall we make owners more responsible/liable for firearms that are used in crimes due to their negligence in properly securing them? Are there statutes that presently cover this circumstance? Just asking, not taking a side on this.

edit - We can also raise the penalties on crimes committed with the use of a firearm, up to and including becoming a capital offense, if necessary.

Crime committed with firearms already have extremely stiffer penalties vs. the same crime without firearm. The use of firearm in a crime automatically makes it a felony.

Regarding "negligence", stolen firearms are gotten by committing a crime...you know, stealing. You can't hold somebody responsible for a crime committed against them or their property.

 

[bozack]

he killed his mom and stole her guns

but it is her negligence I agree, and she should have had his mental issues dealt with instead of hiding it all

He killed her using her own guns, how did he get access to them?

Sorry, but I would be very surprised if the mother had no idea of his instability issues, and as such she failed to take necessary measures to keep him away from the guns....

If it truly was a "bonding" experience for them (meaning target shooting) then she could have kept the guns at the range, locked up....

 

[waggy]

He killed her using her own guns, how did he get access to them?

Sorry, but I would be very surprised if the mother had no idea of his instability issues, and as such she failed to take necessary measures to keep him away from the guns....

If it truly was a "bonding" experience for them (meaning target shooting) then she could have kept the guns at the range, locked up....

agreed.

IF she knew he had mental issues (be really shocked if she didn't) she should have taken steps to make sure the guns were locked up and he couldn't get to them.

also i don't think shooting is the best "bonding" thing they could have done.


It disgust me how the US treats people with mental illness. to many look at the stigma of it adn hide it.

 

[bozack]

So then, shall we make owners more responsible/liable for firearms that are used in crimes due to their negligence in properly securing them? Are there statutes that presently cover this circumstance? Just asking, not taking a side on this.

edit - We can also raise the penalties on crimes committed with the use of a firearm, up to and including becoming a capital offense, if necessary.

How?

In this specific case the owner is dead, so I don't think much can be done on that front....

Like I said, there isn't much that can be done without taking drastic measures as in this case the guns were all legally purchased and registered in a state that has pretty strict gun laws....

Its not like the kid went out of state where laws were more lax

And raising penalties does nothing in these instances as they all usually kill themselves and don't have to face judgement

 

[bozack]

agreed.

IF she knew he had mental issues (be really shocked if she didn't) she should have taken steps to make sure the guns were locked up and he couldn't get to them.

also i don't think shooting is the best "bonding" thing they could have done.


It disgust me how the US treats people with mental illness. to many look at the stigma of it adn hide it.

Yeah I agree...

They really need to work on mental health care in some way, if we are all going to Obama care then they should make concessions to have it covered under the plans.

 

[Jaepheth]

I'll give a subjective reason for my own fascination with guns.

I believe I was 4 years old when my father first put a .22 rifle in my hands and taught me to shoot. My childhood is full of memories of me, my father, and my grandfather shooting paper targets, aluminum cans, etc.
Consequently, guns make me happy. The smell of freshly burned smokeless powder makes me happy. The beauty and simplicity in the mechanical workings of a firearm make me happy.

I guess you might say, "Happiness is a warm gun."

 

[waggy]

I'll give a subjective reason for my own fascination with guns.

I believe I was 4 years old when my father first put a .22 rifle in my hands and taught me to shoot. My childhood is full of memories of me, my father, and my grandfather shooting paper targets, aluminum cans, etc.
Consequently, guns make me happy. The smell of freshly burned smokeless powder makes me happy. The beauty and simplicity in the mechanical workings of a firearm make me happy.

I guess you might say, "Happiness is a warm gun."

pretty much how i grew up. i had BB gun at 5. pellet guns, and .22.

We spent a lot of time shooting targets and empty pop cans.

also we went hunting every year. everything from birds to deer. whatever the season.

My daughter (10) has gone duck hunting twice now.

Yeah I agree...

They really need to work on mental health care in some way, if we are all going to Obama care then they should make concessions to have it covered under the plans.

i agree. but its more then it being covered. its how people view those with a mental illness.

 

[trenchfoot]

How?

In this specific case the owner is dead, so I don't think much can be done on that front....

Like I said, there isn't much that can be done without taking drastic measures as in this case the guns were all legally purchased and registered in a state that has pretty strict gun laws....

Its not like the kid went out of state where laws were more lax

And raising penalties does nothing in these instances as they all usually kill themselves and don't have to face judgement

Apologies, I assumed my commentary would be taken to mean what should be done in the near future.

And, in reference to raising penalties, I was referring to firearm owners whose firearms were stolen/burglarized because the owner was lax in properly securing them in a gunsafe etc. For example, the owner had the piece(es) resting in a overhead gunrack in their unlocked pickup truck while in-store at a busy 7-11, or left fully loaded over the bedroom doorway for quick response while the owner was at work.