Discussion: Just why is the US so conservative vs. (N.) Europe which is very liberal, and which govt model is "better"?

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0
I know Elledan should show up with some interesting opinions on this, but European nations, especially the northern scandinavian countries, intrigue me alot with their government structure. Alot of real conservative Americans will probably say that they tax too much and they rely on the government too much, and I can understand that, but, the fact is that these countries have a higher standard of living than the US. The US has a very large gap between rich/poor. There are some extremely rich and there are some extremely poor. The question I ask is that why, in a nation as rich as the US, are there people dying of hunger, dying of problems related to money when there is more than enough to go around? I don't tend to be a hugely liberal guy when talking about the US government, mainly because I don't like most democrats. Plus, when talking about the US specifically, you have to take the consitution into account. In the northern European countries I'm talking about, they don't have our constitution so it's a bit different.

Something else to consider is that with a more socialist government, you are in a way discouraging people from becoming successful because they will be penalized by the government essentially, and the poor get basically a free ride. But another way to think about it is, the poor could get the chance to be educated, and get a decent job, and actually be productive vs. being a bum their whole life.

I have to say that if I ever get the chance, I would like to live somewhere like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, or somewhere with a similar government. Plus there seem to be lots of geeks over there (talk to many on IRC)
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Pretty simple really... if you're ambitious and self-reliant, the U.S. is a far superior place to be. If you need/prefer to have the reassurance of a government safety blanket and social benefit programs, then you're better off in Europe. Different approach for different mentalities.
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,575
292
126
Also take into account that in Europe not as many people own their home, so much more money to spend on other things.
Think about it (those who own)--what could you spend that $ on that didn't go into the casa?
(Now that I think of it, not as many even own a vehicle. So if that were you, you probably would be spending more on clothes, eating out, entertainment, travelling, etc)
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0


<< Also take into account that in Europe not as many people own their home, so much more money to spend on other things.
Think about it (those who own)--what could you spend that $ on that didn't go into the casa?
>>


but a mortgage is cheaper than rent for the same house, i guess you mean apartments eh?

 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,575
292
126
Property owners tend to be more conservative b/c they want to keep what the have.
A government that provides equally for everybody tends to brings out a "liberal" (as you put it) attitude in the populace, since it appears to them that they all benefit from such, and that it is a good thing.
 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,559
1
0
All you need to do is look at the rate of illegals trying to access freedom.....which is none compared to overwhelming! Take away that and we'd be living like Kings....btw, while we are at it let's start chargeing the Europeans for their share of our defense budget.....they get it for nearly free!:|

It is the US that offers a chance for advancement and a better life for all and not a bunch of European Socialists claiming to have democrat forms of government that in it's restrictions put the KKK to shame!

The US enables this btw....Without US markets Europe would still be in the Dark Ages...
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
BingBongWongFooey,

A mortgage can be cheaper than rent. I know it can be done where i live.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Hmm, somehow I don't think you'll get so many good answers here :0

BTW long term owning a house is cheaper than renting. It's very simple math
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,575
292
126
Owning a home in Europe is not the same situation as in the US, so you can not use US comparrisons between renting and owning.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
You may find Europe becoming a bit more like the States now that the Euro is in full force. And, of course, our government model is better. I'd rather live here than there.
 

zeon

Senior member
Mar 20, 2001
335
0
0
why even bother asking this question here? i mean seriously.. theres really only one answer you'll ever recieve to any type of questioning along these lines... if you want unbiased opinions go somewhere else...
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0


<< BingBongWongFooey,

A mortgage can be cheaper than rent. I know it can be done where i live.
>>


thats what i said!

and if this thread turns into an anti this or that ignorant flame fest, i will be utterly pissed, so i hope that doesnt happen.

and it may also hasten me leaving these forums...they sure do seem to be taking a crap lately. the only reason i havent is because theyre a good place to keep up with current events (ironic i know) and i dont know what else to do to pass the time
 

Kilrsat

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2001
1,072
0
0
Just one thought on the whole range of money vs. fairly consistent level of money.

Let's say I own a large bakery that specializes in your basic breads (nothing fancy, so the elites of society aren't attracted.) Right now my target consumers have incomes between $10,000 and $50,000 per year, and I'm selling my bread at $1 per loaf. Now to make this more interesting, lets say that the vast majority of my consumers fall into the lower half of that income scale, between $10k and $25k. Also note that the employees I keep at the bakery are making $25-$30k a year (right around the average income of my target group.) Certainly bread is important and at $1 a loaf even those making just $10k a year can afford my bread.

Now let's change the economic system and balance the incomes, taking the same group of consumers but now letting their salary range be from $30,000-$50,000, with the average falling right in the middle. What this translates to is that the same consumer I was marketing my $1 a loaf bread to now has 2-3 times the amount of money in their pocket, plus my costs (due to wages and such) have also gone up. To make the same profit on my loaf of bread I may have to charge $3 a loaf.

Here comes the real question, what is the difference between a person making $20,000 a year and buying bread for $1 a loaf, and a person making $35,000 a year and buying bread at $3 a loaf? The person making $20,000 can buy more bread.

Yes, this is a simplified example as it doesn't take into account food stamps or other government subsidizing, but it also shows what would most likely happen if there was some large push to even out the incomes. The higher the average and the minimums go, the higher company costs go, and the more they feel they can charge for their product because there is more money going around.

What I'm not saying here is that we should make sure people are always stuck in a state of poverty, what I am saying is that a simple money redistribution program is not the answer.

Now more directly to your question of why people face money problems.
What motivates a rich man to work harder? The idea that he can become richer.
What motivates a man getting a free lunch to work harder? Self respect is about the best reason.

If we take away the ability for the rich to get richer, they might as well close down their businesses and send all their employees out on the streets.
If we hand over money to balance incomes to those that "need" it, we undermine those that are trying to work for it, although you might influence a few that don't want to be classified as "needy."

But then one must wonder, if those people don't want to be needy, would they be working hard trying to raise their status normally? The answer here is probably yes, they would already be working their butt off, even without a label.

So what have we gained by trying to balance the economic situation? Businesses have shut down putting more workers in the unemployment lines, more people have been convinced that the free lunch plan is the way to go, and the same amount of people are still working trying to better themselves.

That wide range of rich/poor gives people motivation. Its good to know that someday if you work hard (or even if you're just plain lucky) you could be vastly more wealthy than you are right now. There is no "easy" way for this to happen, it takes hard work, and there are too many people looking for the quick solution (i.e. lawsuits, lotteries, etc.) Simply raising the minimum/average wouldn't work (see bread example above) and capping the wealthy doesn't help anyone.

I've seen the poor or "under-priviledged" work hard and succeed, I've witnessed that when a man buckles down, works harder (and I mean hard, not just put your 40 hours in and forget about it, overtimer, off the clock, read a book you don't have to hard. I have a brother that was putting in 80-100 hour work weeks to provide for his family, the proudest moment of his life was when he finally could stop doing that and say "I made it," and I have more respect for him than most people in this world. He didn't graduate high school either, but now works with equipment worth hundreds of thousands, owns his own home, has two kids, and all that too.) than the norm, they can make it. It isn't about the level of eduction you receive, its about what you can do with the education you have. Those that don't even graduate high school can still make it, but it takes another level of dedication, the wanting to better themselves.

The only man that traps someone into a life of eternal poverty is that man. Opportunities might not come as easily for everyone, but if they work their tail off, they can get themselves that opportunity.
 

Kilrsat

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2001
1,072
0
0
Well gee, that was a little longer than I intended (just kinda started rattling off stuff for awhile.)

For the time impaired, just go and read the last half/quarter, and you'll get the general idea.
 

marksman1uhm1

Member
Feb 10, 2002
36
0
0
Here's a view from one of those N. European countries:

If you compare the statistics for Holland and the US (generously supplied by the US govt at cia.gov) there can be no doubt who is doing a better job for most of its citizens: Holland. Compare, for example the literacy rate (H: 99%; US: 97%), the HIV/aids prevalence rate (H:0.19%; US: 0.61%), and the infant mortality rate (H: 4.37 deaths/1,000 live births; US: 6.76 deaths/1,000 live births).

Yet both countries are rich, Western, industrialized nations. The difference, I think, can be traced to the tradition of Big Government & Big defense spending in the US. Currently, Holland spends 1.5% of its GDP on defense, the US 3.2. Just think what could have been done for the US educational and medical system with that extra 1.7%...

Additionally, Holland does not have to bear the burden of supporting the overwhelming bureaucracy of a nearly totalitarian state which believes in protecting its citizens agains themselves at all costs.

 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0
in response to kilrsat (dont wanna quote that whole thing! )

you make alot of sense in areas, but when you get right down to it, you are being a little too optimistic. sure, there are people who will excel and work hard, and there are others who dont. but my question is, do we just take the people who dont work as hard and cast them off to be forever poor and unprivelaged? should the system only favor those who work hard? surely not, but that is how america is right now. bill gates has billions upon billions worth of investments and whatnot, yet jerry the bum wears the same clothes everyday, and pushes around a shopping cart all day. what if this guy gets cancer or something? he cant pay for medical bills.

or even me. i'm not a bum. i jsut finished high school, my parents never saved any money to send me to college, i am living with my girlfriend and am now unemployed. i am great with computers but i have no formal training. i NEED a job first and foremost right now, but in the meantime, i have 2 teeth in the back of my head rotting away, and i havent been to a doctor in at least a couple years. sure, i'm not poor, hell, i have a computer, 2 even, but thats just cus i'm a computer junkie (they're not top of the line by any means). so when in situations like this, you start thinking about how nice it would be if there was goventment provided health care, and other things along those lines. just keep in mind that not every person who is at the bottom of the ladder is there because they are lazy. i'm only 18, and i by no means plan on living like this for the rest of my life.
 

AaronP

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
4,359
0
0
Just think what could have been done for the US educational and medical system with that extra 1.7%

Well, if the US didn't spend that extra 1.7%, Holland wouldn't be such a great place to live, what with concentration camps and a facist goverment controlling it. Or maybe it would be communist. Dumbass, the US has to spend that money for a reason, to protect the freedem of all Americans, and most other people all over the world. Do you think freedom actually free?
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126

Just why is the US so conservative vs. (N.) Europe which is very liberal, and which govt model is "better"

Man do you have a paper due or something? sounds like a term paper topic to me.
 

marksman1uhm1

Member
Feb 10, 2002
36
0
0
Dear Aaron:

At least you do not dispute my arguments for who is doing the best job for its citizens.

The Dutch will always be grateful that the US finally got involved in WW2, after the Dutch had been living under the scourge of nazi occupation for over 1.5 years... American troops have long since left Dutch soil, however. And both WW2 and the Cold War are over.

You imply US politicians are currently protecting freedom everywhere. Yet, who has more freedom, Dutchmen or Americans?
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,471
1
81


<< the fact is that these countries have a higher standard of living than the US. >>



Standard of living = Output per worker. And no one does it better than the US



<< The US has a very large gap between rich/poor. There are some extremely rich and there are some extremely poor. The question I ask is that why, in a nation as rich as the US, are there people dying of hunger, dying of problems related to money when there is more than enough to go around? >>



Don't be fooled into thinking that there isn't homelessness and poverty in other countries too. The problem *can* be solved but it has to start with you...take all the money you have (and your parents) above what you need to barely get by and give it straight to the poorest people you see. When people see how much better a country you're turning the US into, they'll get in on the act
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0


<< Just why is the US so conservative vs. (N.) Europe which is very liberal, and which govt model is "better"

Man do you have a paper due or something? sounds like a term paper topic to me.
>>


no i am not in school, but i am somewhat into politics and this is an issue that generally interests me. like i said in the original post, i think it would be a cool experience to try to live in that area of the world for a while and see the impact of a more socialist government.

and keep in mind i dont mean socialist in a bad way. pure socialism of course is bad, but so is pure capitalism. the trick is finding the right mix, and that is what i'm not so sure of...what the "right" mix IS.
 

Kilrsat

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2001
1,072
0
0
Countries that provide government health care average around a 50% income tax. Its a great idea, as long as you don't mind having to work 20% harder to get to where you would be under the current system.

****EDIT*** Thanks to Nemesis77 for pointing out this tax figure isn't quite correct. It was the number I found last time I looked this issue up, might not be correct in all situations today. Although I think the US health system would be in for a major overhaul to get it to work on under 50% taxes... ****/EDIT***

Is it right that people that have more money get better medical treatment? You'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would say yes to that, but you also need to remember that cancer treatments are not free. If they were, you'd start to see hospitals closing up as they wouldn't have the money needed to buy equipment, to hire people. As bad as it sounds, a hospital is a business, they have operating costs, and they have owners looking to make some form of a profit.

Would it be better if hospitals were operated "at cost?" The only systems I know of that function at or below cost are government instituations, and frankly, I wouldn't want the government to be in charge of health care. (Think about sitting around the ER and having to fill out 35 forms instead of the 8 (or whatever it is.)) Government agencies are some of the most inefficient out there, and the last thing I want is inefficient health care, where people are denied care not because of lack of financies but because of handling issues. I don't want to see lazy doctors/nurses, I want to see hard working people trying to make ever dime they can while being as efficient as possible, and if the only way to do that is to make them charge $5000 per operation, then that's the way it'll have to be.

It comes down to if you want top quality health care at a premium or average to low quality care for all.

Now for the fresh out of high school person looking to make it through college some how, here is the secret. Resaurants. Work as a waiter, host, cook, or bartender. Work at more than one place. There is always at least one resaurant hiring, (if you have to, start at a lower quality place and work your way up to the fancy ones with the experience you gain.) If you find the right places, you will be making some great fast cash. Its not the best work, its not even computer work, but what you should be worried about now is how you're going to gain income to put yourself in a position to better yourself.

I started off working with a paper route (like everyone else,) then it was greenhouses, then resaurants, lifeguarding, and all that time I had my eyes open for job openings in fields I was interested in (computers of course) I kept working odd jobs, adding a certification or two, and when my first computer break came, I had a strong work ethic, some excellent references, and a little know-how. I jumped all over that job and got as much from it as I put into. I go to college, and I also have a job that I rather enjoy as well (computer support/programming in a medical research facility.) Do I wish I could have skipped the other strange jobs and jumped straight to here? Yeah, would have made things easier, but oh well, I did what I had to do at that time. College + Work is actually a fairly easy combination to pull off as long as you find employers that understand you're a student first, employee second.

Its strange, we'd all like to jump straight to our dream jobs, but sometimes the path we take has a few detours. Buckle down, work hard, and someday, hopefully, you'll end up where you want to be.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,471
1
81


<< All you need to do is look at the rate of illegals trying to access freedom.....which is none compared to overwhelming! Take away that and we'd be living like Kings....btw, while we are at it let's start chargeing the Europeans for their share of our defense budget.....they get it for nearly free!:| >>



Joint European defense pays for some of it...they know there's bigger fish to fry out there (America) that are more important than fighting silly wars...



<< It is the US that offers a chance for advancement and a better life for all and not a bunch of European Socialists claiming to have democrat forms of government that in it's restrictions put the KKK to shame!

The US enables this btw....Without US markets Europe would still be in the Dark Ages...
>>



True, the US economy drives the world but they'd be out of the Dark Ages considering the renaissance and the industrial revolution started there...
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,471
1
81


<< Hmm, somehow I don't think you'll get so many good answers here :0
BTW long term owning a house is cheaper than renting. It's very simple math
>>


Yep...very simple except for the "cost" of being more tied down--you can't walk away from a mortgage as easy as you can from renting
 
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