DISH Network dropping Cartoon Network and CNN

[boomerang]

I am just trying to do some primary research.

I don't work for DISH or TWX in case you are wondering. But I do own a tonne of TWX. I am just trying to get a sense of how people are reacting to this, i.e. already lost CNN and CN, and given Ergen's tone today, most likely will lose TBS and TNT.

Yes CNN and CN went off a while ago, but what's in contention now is TBS and TNT. With Ergen basically saying today that when he goes dark, he's prepared to go dark for good. But with TBS and TNT still up for negotiation, and the likelihood of renewal on TBS and TNT without CNN and CN is low, I am just trying to figure out how people (DISH customers) would feel about basically losing TBS and TNT.

Also, my 30-35mm comment is really just assuming that DISH will have to pay 10% or more per sub per month in affiliate fees for all four channels, and the 30-35mm figure is an annualized figure. It just doesn't seem like a lot, maybe 1% of total TV programming cost that DISH has to bear. Even if that has to be all passed along to subscribers, it only amounts to 21 cents per month per sub.

Fair enough. I've been a Dish customer for 13 years. I don't follow what Charlie Ergen does or doesn't do with even remotely a high degree of interest. But I respect Charlie for sticking to his guns when he feels the need. His background includes his being a professional gambler. He is an extremely successful individual. I will let him do what he does best. If he pays more today, he is setting the stage for paying more tomorrow. Somebody needs to have the guts to say 'hell no' and he's just the guy to do it.

IMO, prices for TV programing whether it be through satellite or cable should be dropping. There are far, far too many channels to choose from, the content is typically poor and I am forced to buy a package to get the one station I want to watch that includes 19, 39 or perhaps even 79 or more and for too much money.

Having said that, the kerfuffle that took those stations off the Dish lineup caused me to drop my package to a lower tier. It is saving me money which is good. And I still watch maybe eight of the 120 channels I now have to pay for but at least I'm not paying for 200 anymore. Most of the time there is nothing on those eight worth watching. TV as it exists today is dying and when the baby boomers start dying off in large numbers that will end it. Young people don't get their entertainment the same way older folks do. Companies like Dish, etc. that can adapt will survive and those that can't won't. Surviving won't entail accepting higher programming costs in a climate where disposable income is virtually non-existent for far too many.

If I lost TBS and TNT I wouldn't even know the difference.

 

[Ichinisan]

what if I tell you the increase in programming expense to DISH is likely to be only $30-35mm per year?

Blah blah blah. This is the same old story.

What if I told you that EVERY media conglomerate (Turner, NBC, Fox, Viacom, etc) continually raises per-subscriber rates multiple times per year? It doesn't matter who your provider is. Media conglomerates drive rates up. They also force TV service providers to bundle new channels that nobody wants so they can continue to carry the handful of channels everybody does want.

Cable / satellite companies would offer a la carte in a heartbeat if the media conglomerates that own the TV networks would allow it.

 

[Ichinisan]

...meanwhile, TV shows are getting cheaper and cheaper to produce. "Reality" shows with no significant writing cost. Packed with promotional product placement and more commercials than ever.

 

[Ichinisan]

isn't like 90% of Cartoon networks content online anyway?

and CNN is crap

I don't have Dish but would not care about this

TNT and TBS would be bigger deals because of sports

You can't view most of it unless you verify that you subscribe to those channels at home. You create an account that is linked to your TV service provider.

 

[John Connor]

I could care less about CNN, but Cartoon Network? I watch that all the time, although USA's Cartoon Express was much better back in the day. Rarely watch TBS, but I do find good movies and shows on TNT.

I don't have satellite, got Comcrap which goes out at least once a month. We lose all three services.

 

[NoTine42]

I am just trying to do some primary research.

I don't work for DISH or TWX in case you are wondering. But I do own a tonne of TWX. I am just trying to get a sense of how people are reacting to this, i.e. already lost CNN and CN, and given Ergen's tone today, most likely will lose TBS and TNT.

Yes CNN and CN went off a while ago, but what's in contention now is TBS and TNT. With Ergen basically saying today that when he goes dark, he's prepared to go dark for good. But with TBS and TNT still up for negotiation, and the likelihood of renewal on TBS and TNT without CNN and CN is low, I am just trying to figure out how people (DISH customers) would feel about basically losing TBS and TNT.

Also, my 30-35mm comment is really just assuming that DISH will have to pay 10% or more per sub per month in affiliate fees for all four channels, and the 30-35mm figure is an annualized figure. It just doesn't seem like a lot, maybe 1% of total TV programming cost that DISH has to bear. Even if that has to be all passed along to subscribers, it only amounts to 21 cents per month per sub.

On the other side, it appears Time Warner is geiitng $2.2+ billion a year in subscriber fees (from all providers in the US) and they'd rather users not see CNN over a 30-35mm disagreement.

http://www.whatyoupayforsports.com/numbers/

Dish's point is the $.21/mo increase doesn't seem like much...until every other provider wants the same thing.

 

[Ichinisan]

On the other side, it appears Time Warner is geiitng $2.2+ billion a year in subscriber fees (from all providers in the US) and they'd rather users not see CNN over a 30-35mm disagreement.

http://www.whatyoupayforsports.com/numbers/

Dish's point is the $.21/mo increase doesn't seem like much...until every other provider wants the same thing.

Yup. And it compounds year after year....

Every time contracts are re-negotiated (sometimes more than once per year). The per-subscriber cost only goes up. Never down.

 

[PliotronX]

I would be upset about Cartoon Network, none at all over CNN, had I not cut the cord a long time ago.

 

[Fritzo]

In case it hasn't been mentioned- DO NOT call Dish Network and demand credits for the missing channels. They're actually fighting for their customers in this case, and truthfully there are enough substitutes for Cartoon Network and CNN and the other 3 channels that nobody cares about that you won't even miss them.

 

[Jimzz]

ehhh... OTA digital TV, Netflix, amazon prime, and a pile of free channels through my Roku box equals cheaper TV, less/no commercials, and I can start stop anytime I want.

I pay maybe $13 a month and have more TV than I could ever watch and I say 98% of it has no commercials. Only commercials I see are watching crackle for Seinfeld's coffee show, sports on OTA TV, and my wife/MiL's Vietnamese channel commercials.

 

[waggy]

My kids like CN. CNN has a show i watch "somebody's gotta do it" with mike rowe.

but to be honest i'm not upset they are gone.

 

[Ichinisan]

My kids like CN. CNN has a show i watch "somebody's gotta do it" with mike rowe.

but to be honest i'm not upset they are gone.

One way or another, they'll be back. Someone will cave. The TV service provider will still end up paying a higher per-subscriber fee. They *might* negotiate [the increase] down a little bit, or none at all.

No matter what, prices will go up. TV network conglomerates [(Turner/Time Warner, Viacom, NBC, Fox, etc)] depend on it and factor the increased revenue into their budgets.

 

[Newbian]

I can't recall the last time I watched cartoon network other then maybe a rerun of family guy but the tnt/tbs will be something I will care about and that's huge.

 

[Newbian]

My kids like CN. CNN has a show i watch "somebody's gotta do it" with mike rowe.

but to be honest i'm not upset they are gone.

Damn man, I miss him from dirty jobs and yes I can call it a man crush for him. :biggrin:

 

[TheUnk]

Cartoon Network being gone is a huge deal in my house, it's 90% of what my kid watched and I actually enjoyed it too. Do you know how painful some of these Disney channel shows are to watch..... I'll give them another month before looking at switching.

 

[Fritzo]

Cartoon Network being gone is a huge deal in my house, it's 90% of what my kid watched and I actually enjoyed it too. Do you know how painful some of these Disney channel shows are to watch..... I'll give them another month before looking at switching.

Nick has a 'toons channel too that's not bad. Netflix is awesome.

 

[Phoenix86]

A la carte...A la carte...A la carte...

Your bill will be higher or services lower, I can almost guarantee it. However, we don't need to guess, as you can begin to see where this is going today.

HBO-GO is available online only for $15/mo. That's going to be the top end of a la carte pricing. From there you can estimate other channels fairly easily. Premium channels, HBO, SHO, etc. will be between 10-15. I easily use 6 of those, say $12 average. that's $68. I think you see where this is going.

OK, next tier down you have TBS, AMC, etc. likely half of premium, lets aim low say $5 average. I'd want at minimum 8 of those channels. That's another $40/mo.

So, if I limit my content significantly as in I don't pay for the channels I might watch occasionally, I could probably get my bill for TV to $108. That's very close to what I'm paying today for a ton of extra channels. Add in your mix Netflix/Hulu and it's probably around $120.

Add in some of the channels you barely watch but don't want to lose and you're back into the $150/mo range quick.

The only people it would benefit are those who want like 10 total channels, which just isn't that many people.

 

[Ichinisan]

Cartoon Network being gone is a huge deal in my house, it's 90% of what my kid watched and I actually enjoyed it too. Do you know how painful some of these Disney channel shows are to watch..... I'll give them another month before looking at switching.

That's why prices go up. Time Warner / Turner knows you'll switch and they can keep extorting higher per-subscriber rates from all TV service providers.

I say you shouldn't give in. Stick with your provider. Maybe someday the media conglomerate will give in.

 

[brandonb]

I'm disappointed that TruTV was removed. Out of like 3 shows I watch on DISH, 2 of them are on TruTV. Those being Impractical Jokers, and TruTV Top Funniest videos. The other show is The First 48 on A&E.

Other than that I just watch old reruns of shows like The Golden Girls, Frasier, Gilligan's Island, etc.

 

[Fritzo]

One way or another, they'll be back. Someone will cave. The TV service provider will still end up paying a higher per-subscriber fee. They *might* negotiate it down a little bit, or none at all.

No matter what, prices will go up. TV network conglomerates depend on it and factor the increased revenue into their budgets.

That's actually not quite accurate. TV providers make money and increase revenue by selling you add-ons and increasing subscribers. Raising rates is counter to that marketing and selling plan as higher rates makes it harder to compete and turns off new customers. I did contract work for our local cable company this summer that recently went through this with some local TV stations. The TV station wanted to TRIPLE their rebroadcast fee, despite being the lowest rated station in the city (they're the NBC affiliate). It would have resulted in a $8/month increase in basic cable service, so the cable company refused to do it. They dropped the station for several months, the cable company gave out free HD antennas and add-on boxes to pull NBC OTA, and then the station finally agreed to an increase that was low enough where the cable company could absorb the cost and not increase rates.

This is exactly what Dish, Direct TV, and other carriers have to go through on a monthly basis. It's also one of the few things that TV providers do that's good for the consumer. When you don't side with the provider in these cases, you're shooting yourself in the foot with higher future rates.

 

[Scarpozzi]

I was actually happy when DirecTV lost the weather channel and got weather nation. They actually showed the weather on Weather Nation....instead of commentary and "Storm Stories".

All these networks are trying to get a bigger payout.... The providers aren't willing to give. DISH has far less leverage than DirecTV or Comcast because they have lost a lot of their customer base over the years. I expect to stick with DirecTV for a few more years, but wouldn't be surprised if I cut the cord before too long. $100+ a month for just TV is rather high. My justification is from AMC....I try to record and watch at least 2-3 movies a month that I haven't seen. I do it to pretend it's the same as paying for a $10 movie ticket at a theater. If DVRs weren't around, I'd probably drop it altogether.

 

[Ichinisan]

That's actually not quite accurate. TV providers make money and increase revenue by selling you add-ons and increasing subscribers. Raising rates is counter to that marketing and selling plan as higher rates makes it harder to compete and turns off new customers. I did contract work for our local cable company this summer that recently went through this with some local TV stations. The TV station wanted to TRIPLE their rebroadcast fee, despite being the lowest rated station in the city (they're the NBC affiliate). It would have resulted in a $8/month increase in basic cable service, so the cable company refused to do it. They dropped the station for several months, the cable company gave out free HD antennas and add-on boxes to pull NBC OTA, and then the station finally agreed to an increase that was low enough where the cable company could absorb the cost and not increase rates.

This is exactly what Dish, Direct TV, and other carriers have to go through on a monthly basis. It's also one of the few things that TV providers do that's good for the consumer. When you don't side with the provider in these cases, you're shooting yourself in the foot with higher future rates.

Aside from some confusing autocorrect (?) manglings, that's exactly what I said...except nothing is really "absorbed." Programming costs keep increasing all around. The media conglomerates are fairly constant and have always been pulling this crap. The problems with local broadcast stations (affiliated with major national networks) is relatively recent, and their demands are skyrocketing.

It's sickening. These broadcast stations extort more money from TV service providers for the same thing they are broadcasting it over-the-air for free. It used to be 100% ad supported. You reach more people, you get higher ratings and higher ad revenue. If things were fair, these broadcast stations would pay the TV service providers to redistribute the signal because they ultimately reach more people. Now, broadcast stations expect the extra revenue from per-subscriber retransmission consent fees. Meanwhile, programming is cheaper than ever to produce and they have more ads and paid product placement than ever.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "TV conglomerates." I'm talking about big entities that own multiple popular and unpopular cable TV networks. Network conglomerates can use their popular networks as leverage to extort more money from TV service providers and, ultimately, consumers.

Viacom owns MTV, VH1, Nickelodeon, Comedy Central, etc.

Turner/Time Warner...well, you know...

NBC also owns a ton of stations.

 

[Ichinisan]

I'm disappointed that TruTV was removed. Out of like 3 shows I watch on DISH, 2 of them are on TruTV. Those being Impractical Jokers, and TruTV Top Funniest videos. The other show is The First 48 on A&E.

Other than that I just watch old reruns of shows like The Golden Girls, Frasier, Gilligan's Island, etc.

TruTV is trash 24/7.

 

[Nerva]

TruTV is trash 24/7.

A lot of your statements have been false/wrong.

Affiliate deals are negotiated for 3-5 year terms with annual contracted escalators pacing inflation. They are not negotiated multiple times a year. Ergen had already agreed to new agreements with other networks on similar terms that TWX is asking for.

In my view, he's just being a dick right now and will cough up the 10% increase in affiliate fees for TWX networks.

TV production costs are not going down. Original programming is still very very expensive. On average probably $2mm per episode for original scripted shows. Unless you are Scripps and Discovery and Viacom with the shitty programming.

Sports rights have also gone up significantly. NBA rights to the 2024/2025 season basically doubled in price for year 1 of the deal and then would have annual escalators (3-5% is my guess)

 

[eits]

for those who have dish network:

it's your own dumbass fault for going with dish network in the first place.