Distraught Pregnant woman attempts suicide. Is charged with fetal death

[cybrsage]

From a moral perspective, Gonad is absolutely right. If abortion is a-okay, then what this lady did is a-okay too. If what she did is wrong, then so is abortion.

Saying that some people are allowed to kill your baby but you can't is insane. If laws exist to sanction that, they should be repealed.

These laws exist to punish someone else from killing an unborn human. For example, a woman is on her way into an abortion clinic and someone tries to rob her. It goes bad and he shoots her in the stomache, killing the unborn human inside her. He is charged with murder, even though her intent is to end the unborn human's life anyway.

The only exemption for who is allowed to end the life of the unborn human is that made for a licenses abortionist while performing a legal procedure.

If this was not the case, you would see unlicensed shops opening up where all types of horrors would happen.

 

[nonlnear]

These laws exist to punish someone else from killing an unborn human. For example, a woman is on her way into an abortion clinic and someone tries to rob her. It goes bad and he shoots her in the stomache, killing the unborn human inside her. He is charged with murder, even though her intent is to end the unborn human's life anyway.

The only exemption for who is allowed to end the life of the unborn human is that made for a licenses abortionist while performing a legal procedure.

If this was not the case, you would see unlicensed shops opening up where all types of horrors would happen.

No, the issue is not the prevention of unlicensed abortion. There already exists a class C (I think) felony in Indiana which is apparently sufficient to deal with that, and all other unlicensed practice areas. In the case of feticide, the actual procedure itself is criminalized apart from the separate offense of practicing without a license. Apparently this distinction is far more subtle than it seemed to me...

 

[JS80]

It's not the boyfriend's decision to make, it is hers, and she made it. What's the difference between what this woman did and walking into a doctor's office, getting an abortion, then going home and trying to kill herself? None.

What's the difference between killing a 40 week old fetus and a one day old baby?

 

[cybrsage]

No, the issue is not the prevention of unlicensed abortion. There already exists a class C (I think) felony in Indiana which is apparently sufficient to deal with that, and all other unlicensed practice areas. In the case of feticide, the actual procedure itself is criminalized apart from the separate offense of practicing without a license. Apparently this distinction is far more subtle than it seemed to me...

Hmmm...I wonder what the purpose of the law is.

 

[cybrsage]

What's the difference between killing a 40 week old fetus and a one day old baby?

Upon birth, everyone (but a handfull of loons such as Obama) agrees the newly born human is both a human being and receives the right to life. Before birth is where the debate over abortion lies.

Before birth, the human is not a human being yet, not a person yet, and does not gain the right to life and other unalienable human rights.

 

[nonlnear]

Hmmm...I wonder what the purpose of the law is.

There is no duty to retreat in Florida.

 

[Nintendesert]

Explain how this woman didn't perform an abortion.

She's not licensed to perform abortions. :sneaky:

 

[nonlnear]

Explain how this woman didn't perform an abortion.

She's not licensed to perform abortions. :sneaky:

Also, there was a live birth. The baby died four days later.

 

[JS80]

Upon birth, everyone (but a handfull of loons such as Obama) agrees the newly born human is both a human being and receives the right to life. Before birth is where the debate over abortion lies.

Before birth, the human is not a human being yet, not a person yet, and does not gain the right to life and other unalienable human rights.

What if the umbilical cord is still attached? What if a toe is still in the vagina?

 

[Rangoric]

Which patient are you refering to, and are we still stalking about an unlicensed appendectomy, unlicensed abortion, or licensed abortion? I don't want to take this down rabbit trails it doesn't have to go so I'm going to try to be careful with the details.

Unlicensed appendectomy. Just doing it gets the charge of practicing without a license. But since they don't have a license and the protection that entails, if the patient dies, the unlicensed doctor could also be charged with murder.

(The protections a doctor has are that if he practices and works in good faith, and someone dies, while a civil case is easy to pin on them, a criminal case tends to be much much harder)

 

[nonlnear]

Unlicensed appendectomy. Just doing it gets the charge of practicing without a license. But since they don't have a license and the protection that entails, if the patient dies, the unlicensed doctor could also be charged with murder.

(The protections a doctor has are that if he practices and works in good faith, and someone dies, while a civil case is easy to pin on them, a criminal case tends to be much much harder)

That wouldn't make it analogous to the death resulting from an unlicensed abortion, and the resulting charges. The whole point of an abortion is to kill the fetus.

The only way the unlicensed appendectomy would be analogous to an unlicensed abortion would be if the purpose of the appendectomy were to kill the patient, and the only way for an appendectomy not to be legally defined as murder is to have a license to perform it.

 

[cybrsage]

What if the umbilical cord is still attached? What if a toe is still in the vagina?

Still a human being, even with cord attached and toe in vagina. Obama says differently, but he is a kook for thinking such.

 

[WHAMPOM]

My deepest sympathies go to this woman who tried to kill herself in despair but instead lost the one most likely to give her consolation.

 

[Darwin333]

These laws exist to punish someone else from killing an unborn human. For example, a woman is on her way into an abortion clinic and someone tries to rob her. It goes bad and he shoots her in the stomache, killing the unborn human inside her. He is charged with murder, even though her intent is to end the unborn human's life anyway.

The only exemption for who is allowed to end the life of the unborn human is that made for a licenses abortionist while performing a legal procedure.

If this was not the case, you would see unlicensed shops opening up where all types of horrors would happen.

While I sort of agree with your statement they need to come up with a new name or law because of the following:

mur·der/ˈmərdər/
Noun:
The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

If it is a human it is unlawful to kill it, period. If it is not, as argued by the pro-choice crowd, not a human then it can not possibly be murder. Both sides can not be right on this issue.

 

[Doppel]

This seems a bit much. She needs a psychiatrist more than a criminal charge.

 

[cybrsage]

While I sort of agree with your statement they need to come up with a new name or law because of the following:

mur·der/ˈmərdər/
Noun:
The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

If it is a human it is unlawful to kill it, period. If it is not, as argued by the pro-choice crowd, not a human then it can not possibly be murder. Both sides can not be right on this issue.

When talking about legal matters, one must use legal definitions:

The following is a example of a state statute dealing with murder:
2903.02. Murder.

1. No person shall purposely cause the death of another or the unlawful termination of another's pregnancy.
2. No person shall cause the death of another as a proximate result of the offender's committing or attempting to commit an offense of violence that is a felony of the first or second degree and that is not a violation of section 2903.03 or 2903.04 of the Revised Code.
3. Division (B) of this section does not apply to an offense that becomes a felony of the first or second degree only if the offender previously has been convicted of that offense or another specified offense.
4. Whoever violates this section is guilty of murder, and shall be punished as provided in section 2929.02 of the Revised Code.;

http://definitions.uslegal.com/m/murder/

 

[cave_dweller]

When talking about legal matters, one must use legal definitions:


[/LIST]http://definitions.uslegal.com/m/murder/

When is a fetus declared as a human being?
Murder is the intentional causing of death of another human being. The intentional or on purpose part is the most important factor that has also to be proved as that is the part attorneys normally attacks.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Difficult issue, really.

This is like mommy taking the minivan off a bridge with the kids in the back seat because she is depressed. Not 100% like this, but similar enough.

Is it a direct example of fetal assault/murder? Not really. This was not done to get rid of the kid. It was done to get her out of life.

Irony, what would be the worst penalty for this? Death? So, she tries to kill herself, fails, but aborts her kid. They try her and sentence her to death. Nice spending of $$s there!

Opinion: Treat it like Manslaughter. She was not doing this to kill the kid, per say, but it is still a selfish act.

 

[Sunburn74]

Fetuses have no rights. They have no case. A woman has the right to ingest whatever substance she wants as she deems fit regardless of the outcome to the baby because her right to control her body supercedes the fetuses right to live in her body.

Case in point: if a pregnant woman has an illness that is treatable without any side effects that will kill her baby but not her, she has the right not to treat for any reason. In the same way, if she wants to take a health supplement that is toxic to her baby but great for her, she can. The woman's right to manager her own health as she wants even to the detriment or death of the fetus supercedes the rights of the fetus. All she has to do is argue that the rat poison was some sort of health supplement/off label medication gone wrong and she'll get off (rat poison actually is warfarin so its not that far fetched).

 

[cybrsage]

When is a fetus declared as a human being?
Murder is the intentional causing of death of another human being. The intentional or on purpose part is the most important factor that has also to be proved as that is the part attorneys normally attacks.

No, it is not. The post you partially quoted very explicitly says otherwise.

However, to answer your question, the moniker of being is currently applied at birth.

 

[cybrsage]

Fetuses have no rights. They have no case.

The law, an example of which I quoted, says you are 100% wrong.

 

[Sunburn74]

The law says another's pregnancy. Women have it well within their rights to terminate their own pregnancies because it falls under the right to control their own bodies (this has a lot of precedence in the courts). Fetuses do not have any rights. A mother can refuse lifesaving treatment from a fetus. She cannot refuse life saving treatment for that same fetus 1 second after it is born.

 

[alphatarget1]

Scott Peterson got convicted of killing Laci Peterson AND the unborn baby.

 

[cybrsage]

The law says another's pregnancy. Women have it well within their rights to terminate their own pregnancies because it falls under the right to control their own bodies (this has a lot of precedence in the courts). Fetuses do not have any rights. A mother can refuse lifesaving treatment from a fetus. She cannot refuse life saving treatment for that same fetus 1 second after it is born.

Very true. I suspect they would be invoking number 2, the death of another.

 

[Ninjahedge]

That mommy did not want to kill the kid/abort.

It is not a completely logical situation, but if Mommy wanted to go through the pain of childbirth and have the kid, having someone kill it, AND you....


Besides, you SERIOUSLY do not think killing a pregnant woman is worse than killing a non-pregnant woman?