DNC chair Schultz dropped from convention amid email debacle over Bernie Sanders

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,527
136
Again, its not even really about the details, its the fact that the organization was conspiring behind the scenes to pick one over the other. The people should elect their person, not the DNC. Not sure why you are talking about purity tests.

I will say this, its not like they were trying to spread lies, or misrepresenting his views. The issue is that the primary is marketed as the process that the Democrats elect their representative, and that is not the full truth.

You seem to think that the DNC was going to be completely neutral between someone who had built relationships in it over 30 years and someone who just joined after a lifetime of explicitly spurning the Democratic Party. I find that expectation to be absurd. It was never going to happen and that's a surprise to no one.

Considering the stakes and Clinton and Sanders's relative standing I'm actually surprised the DNC was as neutral as it was.

Its far better to get this to come out and deal with it in the primary than it is to let it come out later. If you are trying to be a pragmatist, then you should see that.

Definitely not, attacks from your own party are much more damaging than attacks from the other party. As a pragmatist I see this.

What you are saying though, is you dont want the people voting with all the information because it could be ammo for the other side.

An election where people do not know who they are voting for is not really democracy. That is unless putting down 1 or 2 as the option and nothing else is democracy to the DNC.

The idea that people are going to get reliable information about candidates from opposing political campaigns is absurd, regardless of the candidate. If people don't know who they are voting for, the opposition candidate is the last person they should be asking for that information.

Parties can look after their interests and be transparent. Also, see above. Not knowing the details is a problem.

That is simply not how politics works.

People can be shitty. Just because its a process made by people does not make it less so. Just because this is standard political behavior does not mean its good. Murder is part of human behavior and in no way should we be accepting of that. This is what I meant when I said you would never apply this logic to other problems. Saying its standard does not mean it should be accepted.

This is part of the normal and efficient running of political campaigns and markets, unlike murder. It is standard because it is the most effective, if someone were to choose to deliberately be less effective in the name of moral purity then they would simply start losing until they re-adopted effective tactics.

It should be accepted because to do otherwise simply puts you at the mercy of anyone not willing to play by your rules (ie: everyone else). It's silliness.

If you were in a Walmart and you wanted a candy bar, but you forgot your wallet, would you steal it knowing nobody would find out? Most people have the ability to steal without being caught, but most people do not steal. Why?

If you want to accept this type of thing as inherent to politics then you are feeding into the problem. Nothing wrong with wanting to make anything a little better or at the very least trying.

Politics isn't beanbag.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,782
1,540
126
Umm...other then plastering trumps face on that webpage article conjuring up circumstantial bullshit innuendoes and conspiracy theories. There is ZERO, ZILCH, NADA connecting this to Trump. Hell I think Alex Jones has better conspiracy theories then that article.

Never mind the fact that it was Julian Assange's Wiki-Leaks that posted this hacked info and he is the type of guy that seems to like to expose the rot and filth of the elites around the world. Additionally we now know for a fact that Bernie was the joke candidate who endorsed Queen SHILL-ary. That is a fact which cannot be denied.

I'm sorry that I couldn't find an article where anyone in the Russian Intelligence agency took credit for the hack and dispersion of the emails the night before the Democratic convention.

You have to be joking.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,752
4,562
136
People are stupid for not voting for Bernie in the primary. I did, but it was not enough. People on this board assure me that he's a naive idealist who couldn't get all the things he wanted done. I'm inclined to agree. But the thing is, if that was his weakness then near as I can tell it is the least bad weakness of any candidate standing on the entire field. And Hillary may yet have the best skill set for navigating our political system to get things done but that skill set won't be used for the sake of the middle class. Quite the contrary.

Super delegates. "Coin" flips. A rigged DNC chair. Hell. Bernie was fucking cheated! He never had a fair chance. And maybe he would have lost even without this bullshit, but that doesn't matter. He should never have been sabotaged in the first place ,in any event. This election has shaken the credibility of our democracy and if for nothing else I am grateful to Bernie for inadvertently exposing it.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
All I am seeing here is a bunch of Republican "Bernie supporters" concern trolling the DNC.

Then get your vision checked. I am in no way a republican. I think Hillary is better than Trump. Just because something else is worse does not make what the DNC did okay.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
You seem to think that the DNC was going to be completely neutral between someone who had built relationships in it over 30 years and someone who just joined after a lifetime of explicitly spurning the Democratic Party. I find that expectation to be absurd. It was never going to happen and that's a surprise to no one.

Considering the stakes and Clinton and Sanders's relative standing I'm actually surprised the DNC was as neutral as it was.



Definitely not, attacks from your own party are much more damaging than attacks from the other party. As a pragmatist I see this.



The idea that people are going to get reliable information about candidates from opposing political campaigns is absurd, regardless of the candidate. If people don't know who they are voting for, the opposition candidate is the last person they should be asking for that information.



That is simply not how politics works.



This is part of the normal and efficient running of political campaigns and markets, unlike murder. It is standard because it is the most effective, if someone were to choose to deliberately be less effective in the name of moral purity then they would simply start losing until they re-adopted effective tactics.

It should be accepted because to do otherwise simply puts you at the mercy of anyone not willing to play by your rules (ie: everyone else). It's silliness.



Politics isn't beanbag.

Do you think we would be better off then having the DNC tell the party who is going to be the nominee? Would we be better off skipping the pretense?
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,846
8,447
136
All I am seeing here is a bunch of Republican "Bernie supporters" concern trolling the DNC.

^ This in a nutshell. I don't seem to recall any discussion when it was the GOP that was talking about convention loopholes to deny Trump the nomination after receiving a sufficient # of delegates in the primary process.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,782
1,540
126
People are stupid for not voting for Bernie in the primary. I did, but it was not enough. People on this board assure me that he's a naive idealist who couldn't get all the things he wanted done. I'm inclined to agree. But the thing is, if that was his weakness then near as I can tell it is the least bad weakness of any candidate standing on the entire field. And Hillary may yet have the best skill set for navigating our political system to get things done but that skill set won't be use for the sake of the middle class. Quite the contrary.

Super delegates. "Coin" flips. A rigged DNC chair. Hell. Bernie was fucking cheated! He never had a fair chance. And maybe he would have lost even without this bullshit, but that doesn't matter. He should never have been sabotaged in the first place ,in any event. This election has shaken the credibility of our democracy and if for nothing else I am grateful to Bernie for inadvertently exposing it.

I agree with you, it's a rigged system on Both sides. The problem I had with Bernie is he wasn't shit isn't even a Democrat. He should have switched parties if he believed in it so much and worked to get it fixed. But the party for him was a vehicle to get elected. I liked his bluntness on the economy, even on Israel, but after a while you have to jump in our shut up. You can't say you are an Independent and then try to dictate how the Democratic party should be run.

That being said, this 2 party structure has to be fixed. I'm glad they fired Schultz and I'm disappointed Clinton gave her an honorary position.

That being said, the difference in the two parties is at least people on the Left don't jump up to automatically defend her with absurd excuses. They called a spade a spade, called for her to be fired and she was. Would that have happened in a Trump campaign?
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
DNC is pretty open about the fact that party officials influence the primaries. That's why they have superdelegates. In this case, Sanders lost with the voters at the polls before it ever got to that.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,527
136
Do you think we would be better off then having the DNC tell the party who is going to be the nominee? Would we be better off skipping the pretense?

The DNC does not tell the party who the nominee is going to be. They didn't do so in this case or anything even on the same planet as that.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
DNC is pretty open about the fact that party officials influence the primaries. That's why they have superdelegates. In this case, Sanders lost with the voters at the polls before it ever got to that.

I will ask you the same thing I have asked others. Would we not be better off just having the DNC tell us who the nominee is instead of all this money and time in the current process?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,885
34,850
136
So then why not skip the pretense and just have the DNC decide who should be the candidate?

You're aware that political parties in this county have at various times in history done just that? Arguably the present setup is much more democratic in function than what used to go on.
 

HTFOff

Golden Member
Oct 3, 2013
1,292
56
91
Democrats have been reduced to conspiracy theories and innuendo. Aww. :'(
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
does anyone really think that if there'd been an extra debate or two, or if the debates started in September instead of November, that it would have made a difference for the +3 million votes that Clinton won with?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
I will ask you the same thing I have asked others. Would we not be better off just having the DNC tell us who the nominee is instead of all this money and time in the current process?

That's for the DNC to decide. Right now, they prefer to get input from the voters, who picked Hillary.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,885
34,850
136
does anyone really think that if there'd been an extra debate or two, or if the debates started in September instead of November, that it would have made a difference for the +3 million votes that Clinton won with?

I'm sure some here do but extraordinarily wishful thinking isn't in short supply amongst some Sanders supporters.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
No it wouldn't be better. Why do you ask?

Look around. That seems to be what people are arguing for. Your argument is that the DNC is going to do what is best for the DNC. If they are going to sway elections, then why not do away with the election and just make it simple? It seems like you are saying is that self interested DNC will use its power to get the people they want elected. So why have a vote by the people at all?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
You're aware that political parties in this county have at various times in history done just that? Arguably the present setup is much more democratic in function than what used to go on.

The question was not if it has happened.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,527
136
Look around. That seems to be what people are arguing for. Your argument is that the DNC is going to do what is best for the DNC. If they are going to sway elections, then why not do away with the election and just make it simple? It seems like you are saying is that self interested DNC will use its power to get the people they want elected. So why have a vote by the people at all?

Because their ability to influence it exists at the margins and is a good stabilizing influence. Pretty simple, no?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
It's each party's decision. Sanders was welcome to run as an independent, it was his choice to run as a Democrat.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
Julian Assange claims that more emails are coming. Ruh roh.
Assange strongly hinted that other e-mail releases were coming, and sources close to him say they will go beyond the DNC e-mails. Assange himself says he wants to stop Hillary because she is, in his view, a liberal “war hawk” He claims that “a vote today for Hillary Clinton is a vote for endless, stupid war.” He then followed up by saying: “Hillary didn’t just vote for Iraq. She made her own Iraq. Libya is Hillary’s Iraq and if she becomes president, she will make more.”
Speculation in the Hillary camp about what could be in future releases from WikiLeaks center around her association with the Clinton Foundation. Peter Schweizer, the author of Clinton Cash, told me: The activities of Hillary Clinton during her time as secretary of state intersect with the favor-seeking of the Clinton Foundation. It is strange that so few of her publicly released e-mails touch on the Clinton Foundation. Maybe the private ones do.”
http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...ndation-e-mails-trumps-taxes-october-surprise

Next up to bat is most likely Clinton Foundation emails.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Your question isn't an actual question. It's rhetoric.

No. You are presuming that I am not asking your opinion, but, trying to make a point with my question. I am not. I am asking you if you think that would be a better system.
 
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