Do babies go to hell, and what's up with God-Jesus dying?

[AyashiKaibutsu]

The first circle of Hell, you mean.

I meant the first circle of baskin robins obviously : p

 

[Inspector Jihad]

WTF is this bullshit?

Let me save you (and everyone else) the trouble of sifting through all the convoluted nonsense surrounding religion.

I've written a new book called "The Atheist Bible" that is due for publication in December this year..but I think I'm going to post it for free now as a public service. Members of every world religion should find something of value in it's pages. I did my best to capture and capsulize the most useful and profound insights from the prophets of every religion (including Christianity). If you follow the advice within, not only will it ensure you live a good and moral life, but it will also save you countless hours that would otherwise have been wasted in church hearing the same message preached with a lot of unnecessary baggage.

Prepare yourself. This is powerful stuff...

The Atheist Bible






Chapter 1​

Don't be a dick.

The End.​

Haha, that is awesome. Some of my religious friends keep telling me how awesome religion is to keep us from doing bad stuff, and I tell them I don't need a book to tell me not to be a dick.

 

[Sea Moose]

Haha, that is awesome. Some of my religious friends keep telling me how awesome religion is to keep us from doing bad stuff, and I tell them I don't need a book to tell me not to be a dick.

and eat your vegetables!

 

[Madwand1]

To love others at the cost of selfish desires is to love Christ.
[...]
I'm not trying to preach, not really. And I don't expect to convince anyone of anything: your world view is yours, that's cool, I don't think you're "wrong" just different. Jesus said he didn't come for the people that don't need him. He came for the crack-addicts and emotionally broken. I just wanted to clear up what seem like a number of misconceptions about the biblical Jesus.

Excellent. A few questions.

(1) Isn't the loving of Christ as a means to eternal salvation the exercise of the ultimate selfish desire?

(2) Are you a crack addict or emotionally broken? What disability makes Jesus a specific need and provision for you? Who are those who don't need Jesus, and why?

(3) How do you love those who don't love Jesus? How does Jesus love them? How do you love those who oppose Jesus? What exactly is your stance towards those who follow Islam or any other major religion besides Christianity? What exactly is your stance towards them with respect to salvation or damnation?

(4) What is the eternity of Hell? How is Hell fair and deserved by those who don't follow Jesus? How does Jesus love when he condemns someone to Hell? How do you love someone if you agree that though they may have lived a virtuous life, that they don't accept Jesus is sufficient for their damnation?

(5) If your faith in Christ happens to be such that you don't believe he condemns to eternal torment those who don't satisfy his requirements as in (4), what is your answer for those Christians who do, and moreover insist that that is the correct interpretation of Christianity?

We've been over such questions many times in this forum, and this line of questions takes two parts, in view of the fact that many Christians take such a hard line: (a) Where do you stand on that hard line. (b) How do you respond to those that do. Note in addition that the concern doesn't end with me or you, but all those who would be affected by that hard line policy.

Now as to my own world view, thank you for recognizing that it's mine and understanding that you're not going to change it here. What you might do however is explain yours and those of other Christians.

Cheers.

 

[polarmystery]

Excellent. A few questions.

(1) Isn't the loving of Christ as a means to eternal salvation the exercise of the ultimate selfish desire?

(2) Are you a crack addict or emotionally broken? What disability makes Jesus a specific need and provision for you? Who are those who don't need Jesus, and why?

(3) How do you love those who don't love Jesus? How does Jesus love them? How do you love those who oppose Jesus? What exactly is your stance towards those who follow Islam or any other major religion besides Christianity? What exactly is your stance towards them with respect to salvation or damnation?

(4) What is the eternity of Hell? How is Hell fair and deserved by those who don't follow Jesus? How does Jesus love when he condemns someone to Hell? How do you love someone if you agree that though they may have lived a virtuous life, that they don't accept Jesus is sufficient for their damnation?

(5) If your faith in Christ happens to be such that you don't believe he condemns to eternal torment those who don't satisfy his requirements as in (4), what is your answer for those Christians who do, and moreover insist that that is the correct interpretation of Christianity?

We've been over such questions many times in this forum, and this line of questions takes two parts, in view of the fact that many Christians take such a hard line: (a) Where do you stand on that hard line. (b) How do you respond to those that do. Note in addition that the concern doesn't end with me or you, but all those who would be affected by that hard line policy.

Now as to my own world view, thank you for recognizing that it's mine and understanding that you're not going to change it here. What you might do however is explain yours and those of other Christians.

Cheers.

I'm not a christian, but let me see if I can explain these based on what I've read from a book I'm currently reading called, "The History of Christianity"

1)Yes. This happened because during Jesus' time, there were many MANY types of "cults" following whatever they believed in and the Roman controlling empire had no issue with anyone of them, basically following the law: Obey the laws, and you can follow whatever religion you desire. Judaism at the time was the most monotheistic, an Jesus tried to universalize some (if not most) of Judaism teachings (where circumcision comes from) through his own interpretation in a non-threatening way.

2)According to this book, the message that the broken and weak shall inherit the earth because when Jesus was preaching the newly reformed messages in his eyes of Judaism, most higher educated individuals of the time simply ignored him and thought he was just some crazy nut. However, he was determined so in lesser educated towns or cities, the message he tried to convey propagated nicely.

3)The instance of damnation was not even utilized until hundreds of years AFTER he died when churches started to define Christianity as the ONLY way through salvation. As stated before, the other religions still practiced without any problem. Roman law only stated that you must follow law, while your religion can be whatever you wished. It was basically a political move of those with power to try and get the majority to follow their opinions (as the minority weak and broken starting becoming dominant over those with power), and religion was the easiest platform to use, since it tied closest to what people did day to day.

4)See 3) but basically the idea of damnation didn't come into the picture until around the 300's during single religion church establishment.

5)There is no correct interpretation of Christianity. I think it was actually Paul who came up with MOST of the ideas of Christianity, not Jesus. Most claim there were 12 disciples of Jesus, but only 8 have been validated in old written text, and even out of those 8, a few names are not consistent.

This is all from a book I'm currently reading. I'm not saying it's the absolute truth, but it is interesting and I think can answer some questions about why Christianity is the way it is.

 

[preslove]

snip

Yeah, that's the thing. An open mind and a little education leads one to understand that most of "Christianity" was created by Paul, evolved over the next 2 1/2 centuries, and was codified in the post-constantine political battles between bishops.

Just the idea of Paul, a common thug employed by the quisling High Priest to persecute followers of jesus, replacing the jerusalem church, WHO ACTUALLY KNEW JESUS (and were probably led by James, his brother), and reinterpreting jesus's life is just repugnant. He twisted jesus's teachings to the point of practically inverting them.

Here are two favorite books of mine on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Closing-Wester.../dp/140004085X

http://www.amazon.com/Mythmaker-Paul...1624860&sr=1-1

 

[mattpegher]

I know you'll all say it took me long enough to figure this out but forgive me for attempting to engage in a meaningfull discussion. Unfortunately the OP is bonkers.

 

[RSaylors]

Unfortunately the OP is bonkers.

This is not to far from the truth... I think a lot of us are here because being a 145+ means you're speaking into an empty room when having a conversation at work (people get weird three standard deviations out). I thought you were trying to lead the discussion in the direction of philosophy of science: I can provide sources and definitions or i can sum up what i was saying but sounding a little less like a nutter:

Reasoning by analogy does not prove anything, but that doesn't mean it can help us find the next question to be looked at.

I figure there is a truth, but it's hard to know, people have free will and we can only understand why they do what they do by looking at a statistically significant sample of them.

So, i figure, if we want to see of Jesus has a real impact we could do it. Just look to see how screwed up the guy was to start with and if faith in Christ helps. It's kind of hard to tell what's going to be Jesus and what's going to be other stuff, so we'll have to study some individuals first... which I've done. But I can't say for sure that my seeing 5 or so people stop being coke addicts proves Jesus is real: I assume we need a bigger sample. But I can say from that there is merit to the investigation.

Basically: I don't think that the origins, fairness or hell ideas you are talking about matter much to how we live our lives today; So I can't figure out why people keep focusing on stuff that just doesn't make a difference to their lives.

oh yea, and you mentioned the teleological point of view... that's some nasty crap. People use that perspective to say that "the ends always justify the means" and justify hurting others and being selfish... this is the opposite of what I believe in. I believe in a more Kantian deontological perspective: this means that the good thing to do is have a other-loving will.

 

[BAMAVOO]

In 2 Samuel 12, King David’s newborn son fell terminally ill. After seven days, the child died. In verses 22 and 23, the Bible records that David said: “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” It is clear that David’s dead infant son would never return to this Earth, but David also said that one day, he would go to be with his son. Through inspiration, David documented that his own eternal destination was going to be “in the house of the Lord” (Psalm 23:6). Therefore, we can conclude that “the house of the Lord” would be the eternal destination of his infant son to whom David would one day go. King David was looking forward to the day when he would be able to meet his son in heaven. Absolutely nothing in this context gives any hint that the dead infant son’s soul would go to hell.

Furthermore, Jesus said in Matthew 18:3-5:

Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

And in Luke 18:16-17, Jesus remarked: “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

Therefore, we have been given a specific example in the Old Testament of an infant who died and would live forever in heaven. And Jesus Christ Himself, in the New Testament, stated that little children retain the qualities that make a person eligible to inherit the kingdom of God. We see, then, that infants and small children that die are in a safe state, and will live eternally in heaven.

 

[Earthlink]

God doesn't exist. It's an impossibility. People like to relate the nature of humans to deities but that's impossible.

Is it possible that we are animated organic machines with a spirit that makes us each individual? Are we not members of an infinite reality. Are we not mere specks on the whole of existence. Do we not communicate via signals that shoot through the air? My view is that we know precious little when it comes to infinity. We can't truly comprehend what the possibilities are. I' for one think we should live this existence with love and gratitude that we are impossibly existing and open our minds to the infinite and our ignorance. View the world and each other with the wonder of children. Truly there is more to life than being a slave to paying bills and breathing polluted air, and gossip and innuendo as our entertainment. Don't forget violence and refusal to just support and care for each other. No judge harshly the down-trodden, exalt the greedy and ambitious that they should destroy the earth that is our host. Stupid parasites kill their host.

 

[BAMAVOO]

Is it possible that we are animated organic machines with a spirit that makes us each individual? Are we not members of an infinite reality. Are we not mere specks on the whole of existence. Do we not communicate via signals that shoot through the air? My view is that we know precious little when it comes to infinity. We can't truly comprehend what the possibilities are. I' for one think we should live this existence with love and gratitude that we are impossibly existing and open our minds to the infinite and our ignorance. View the world and each other with the wonder of children. Truly there is more to life than being a slave to paying bills and breathing polluted air, and gossip and innuendo as our entertainment. Don't forget violence and refusal to just support and care for each other. No judge harshly the down-trodden, exalt the greedy and ambitious that they should destroy the earth that is our host. Stupid parasites kill their host.

Nice first post, now enjoy your torture here.

 

[Earthlink]

Do you really believe that crap?

And how do you know that your faith is the correct one? Perhaps the ancient Egyptian gods are the correct ones. Horus is gonna be mighty pissed you have been worshiping a false man god by the name of Jesus.

Humans cannot assign blame for our failings to any made up gods. Most things can be explained by science. Science has done more for man kind than any religion.

Religion is dying. Give it a couple of generations and as science makes more medical advances and we clean up the planet we shall do away with 2000plus year old silly beliefs.

To believe that we in our infancy really of existence can know what else is out there in an infinite universe, or that we can do better that so many years of evolution and existence just seems so foolish. There is no right or wrong religion. Religion is skewed by people interpretations of it. The basic principles of gods laws seem sound to me. If we all provided for each other locally, freely and used the good solid information and technology we now have we could have a society based on something more meaningful than ambition and greed and all the shit that comes from it. Be as children, wonder at the beauty and possibilities and the impossible seeming fact that you exist in an organic machine more advaced than anything we could hope to create, animated by a life force we cannot understand. Better I think to just enjoy the hell out of life and live to connect with others and provide your special talents without the barriers of being able to afford it. Moneyvalue devalues experience and connections period. Lets let truth be our guide, reason our tool, knowledge our pinnacle, and remember to al;ways be open to learn and be guided.

 

[preslove]

My view is that we know precious little when it comes to infinity.

And this is exactly why believing that we know the ULTIMATE truth because some human in a fancy hat tells us so is utterly ridiculous. Humility requires us to be at least agnostic. We are pathetically ignorant about the universe and will never know more about it than we don't. Thus, people who claim that we know the creator of said universe should be ignored.

 

[RSaylors]

Isn't the loving of Christ as a means to eternal salvation the exercise of the ultimate selfish desire?

Interesting thought, but Jesus says that whoever seeks to save his life will lose it and who ever loses it for his fellow man saves it. The right thing to do is not corrupted simply because you know it is the beneficial thing to do.

Are you a crack addict or emotionally broken? What disability makes Jesus a specific need and provision for you?

I was raised in a negative situation, but I'm not looking to convert people and it's hard to present my story without it sounding that way, but if you PM me I'll respond.

Who are those who don't need Jesus, and why?

I can't speak for anyone else but me: but anyone who feels that they have it all together, feels that their life is on track and is fulfilled and happy, anyone who is happy and feels he is alreagdy loving others instead of himself as much as he wants to; well we already have to many 'Christians' like that. Faith in Christ, as opposed to trusting in wealth or religion, is something that few can accept because few can be broken enough to let God put them back together.

How do you love those who don't love Jesus?

Jesus told us that whatever we do to the most lowly of people is what we do to him; Samaritans were evil from a Jewish perspective, but he advocated the Godliness of one that loves his fellow man.

How does Jesus love them?

I don't know... a hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.

How do you love those who oppose Jesus?

sometimes I suck at it, sometimes I figure they aren't down for the cause because of their environment but sometimes I get angry, like at terrorists and particularly televangelists... is it right, i can't say; I don't know what the loving thing to do in all occasions is, but I hope that I try... but then I know that I fail

What exactly is your stance towards those who follow Islam or any other major religion besides Christianity?

My Muslim friends have there own way, Jesus isn't for people that figure they've got it all together and having religion of any kind can do that for you.

What exactly is your stance towards them with respect to salvation or damnation?

I think Jesus said that he was the only way to God not because everyone needed to read the bible but because he was the epitome of God's design for man: loving of others at the expense of selfishness.

The pre-publication of the atheist bible is fairly close to true; the only problem is that it fails to recognize all of our behavior that may seem like it is innocuous but creates in us a mentality of selfish/other hurting pride, lust and greed.

Now the question is: what is "you"? I don't believe I or anyone else will be saved unless we are saints. Being a saint means living in Jesus, that is being the person that God wants of us. I feel that when we do this it is by the grace of God and not under our own power. Everyone is a stain from time to time, everyone selfish other times. This is dictated by our nature and our environment. By having faith in Christ we get the opportunity be brought out of our environment; So like Jesus said, even the guy with another faith who loves his fellow man is doing God's work and will be rewarded.

The 'treasure' in heaven is how much of 'self' we keep, because God will only keep the 'self' of everyone that was inline with perfection. For particular criticism of religion: I don't' like it, i don't care what religion you are, it makes you feel like you are "good enough" and "Have it all together"... and maybe you do, but from what I've seen most religion-followers don't.

(4) What is the eternity of Hell?

That is the bit of you that wasn't perfect being 'cleansed' or wiped from existence.

How is Hell fair and deserved by those who don't follow Jesus?

so the grave/trash of the bible (a couple of words that get translated to hell) is where someone who's never followed Jesus goes, not because God hates them but because they hated perfection and didn't want to be saved. Be careful here, following Jesus means allowing God to help you deny other-hurting selfishness, just like Christ did, no doubt people have been doing this long before they ever heard of Jesus.

How does Jesus love when he condemns someone to Hell?

He doesn't condemn us except in that he made us and let us live in an imperfect world. But at the same time he offers us the ability to accept a free gift of grace that will let us out of this condemnation we've created for ourselves

How do you love someone if you agree that though they may have lived a virtuous life, that they don't accept Jesus is sufficient for their damnation?

First, there are to many people who've lived 'virtuous lives' that have been selfish other-hurting at every turn; in and outside of every religion or lack there of. It is only through self-denying faith that we can every truly follow Christ and be lifted out of the damnation of our own creation.

If your faith in Christ happens to be such that you don't believe he condemns to eternal torment those who don't satisfy his requirements as in, what is your answer for those Christians who do, and moreover insist that that is the correct interpretation of Christianity?

Romans chapter 2:

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?...12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

This is what the bible says; the mind-controlling tradition of religion being your salvation is so far out of line from the bible, grace and the love of God that I can totally see why people would balk at it.

Note in addition that the concern doesn't end with me or you, but all those who would be affected by that hard line policy.

the hard line is in the heart of the man, not in the religion of his dad.

Now as to my own world view, thank you for recognizing that it's mine and understanding that you're not going to change it here. What you might do however is explain yours and those of other Christians.

There is an interpretive point of view that takes into account the moving of the Holy Spirit, historical context, the literal scripture and church tradition when trying to understand what is right, it is a Wesleyan point of view that makes a lot of sense, i think, when we drop the tradition part.

 

[RSaylors]

dp

 

[NinjaTech]

Excellent. A few questions.

(1) Isn't the loving of Christ as a means to eternal salvation the exercise of the ultimate selfish desire?

(2) Are you a crack addict or emotionally broken? What disability makes Jesus a specific need and provision for you? Who are those who don't need Jesus, and why?

(3) How do you love those who don't love Jesus? How does Jesus love them? How do you love those who oppose Jesus? What exactly is your stance towards those who follow Islam or any other major religion besides Christianity? What exactly is your stance towards them with respect to salvation or damnation?

(4) What is the eternity of Hell? How is Hell fair and deserved by those who don't follow Jesus? How does Jesus love when he condemns someone to Hell? How do you love someone if you agree that though they may have lived a virtuous life, that they don't accept Jesus is sufficient for their damnation?

(5) If your faith in Christ happens to be such that you don't believe he condemns to eternal torment those who don't satisfy his requirements as in (4), what is your answer for those Christians who do, and moreover insist that that is the correct interpretation of Christianity?

We've been over such questions many times in this forum, and this line of questions takes two parts, in view of the fact that many Christians take such a hard line: (a) Where do you stand on that hard line. (b) How do you respond to those that do. Note in addition that the concern doesn't end with me or you, but all those who would be affected by that hard line policy.

Now as to my own world view, thank you for recognizing that it's mine and understanding that you're not going to change it here. What you might do however is explain yours and those of other Christians.

Cheers.

1.No, that wouldn't be love. 2.No, I could live without God but it would be like living in a world without color. 3&4. God loves everyone and commands us to do the same. "Love your neighbor as yourself." We are all his creation. It's our choice whether or not to love him back. In Christianity it's all about a personal relationship with Jesus. If you do not know who Jesus is then it's impossible to have a relationship with him. I believe God will reveal himself to all people then it will be that persons choice whether or not to follow him. Hell is eternity without God which is far worse than any flames. 5. People are not perfect. Even Christians disagree with each other. The bible says do not judge. My own salvation is in question for only God knows who will go to heaven or hell for that matter.

 

[Madwand1]

Thank you, and bravo!

Your words are refreshing, considering what is more often presented, unfortunately to the detriment of Christianity, being used instead as a hedge in the same manner you mentioned Islam -- a club of sorts in which membership is thought to have its certain privileges. If you're past that, I think you're past a great hurdle.

There are many paths, of which the path of love must be the most pleasant, despite what may have to be borne along the way.

Cheers.

 

[Malak]

We do not have burning bushes and parted seas. We have stories about burning bushes and parted seas, but then we also have stories about dog-headed aethieopians, cyclops, minotaurs, mermaids, chupacabras, etc, etc...

How do you know? Do you keep up on Church news across the globe?

A lot of people have visions and hear voices. Nobody's ever demonstrated heavenly origins of any of them, and quite often we put those people in mental hospitals.

More talk on things you don't have knowledge on. People have had real visions and voices from heaven, but how would you know?

Funny thing about so-called "prophecies"... when people aren't out-and-out fabricating stories of their fulfillment, they are both deliberately attempting to fulfill previous predictions while simultaneously ignoring the slews of failed predictions that encompass them. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Even a blind hog gets a corn cob once in a while. Pick your metaphor. At the end of the day, it's all confirmation bias.

Real easy to point out the people that aren't actually prophets and say none if it ever works. But then when your beliefs are biased against God, why would you be concerned to really evaluate your beliefs?

You mean like all those people "miraculously" healed by Benny Hinn? Should we delve a little deeper into those?

I don't know anything about Benny Hinn, only about the friends and family that have been healed. One girl was on her way out, dying in a hospital bed, and was fully recovered in 24 hours. Doctors baffled saying it was impossible.

You can't show someone a miracle.

Sure you can.

 

[Malak]

Don't be a dick.

Pretty sure Jesus said that first.