Do Christians and Muslims believe in the SAME god?

[johnnobts]

there are quite a few jewish christians out there, or as we call messianic jews who have come to faith in Christ as their messiah. after all, the first christian church was the church in jerusalem.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
there are quite a few jewish christians out there, or as we call messianic jews who have come to faith in Christ as their messiah. after all, the first christian church was the church in jerusalem.

Let me clarify. The vast, vast majority of people that follow judaism do not believe in the divinity of christ. The rest of my post is the same.

 

[Vic]

Sigh... to recap, Allah is Arabic for God the same way that Dios is Spanish for God or Gott is German for God. Specifically, Allah means "The God" (al-ilah). This is also why the proper pronounciation is al-LAH and not ALL-ah (like so many people do). The only reason Muslims prefer to use the word Allah even when speaking in other languages is that the specific Arabic form used does not allow for gender or plurality (i.e., like how in English, the word God when capitalized is considered different than god when the g is in lower-case). This important to Muslims in the way they interpret their faith.

And as I said earlier, Jesus and Christianity figure just as much in the Islamic Quran as does Moses and Judaism in the Christian Bible. The evolution of these religons is Zoroastrianism > Judaism > Mithraism > Christianity > Islam. Before Zoroaster, who can say? Perhaps Akhenaten and/or Hinduism. Joseph Campbell seemed convinced that the Sky Father worship (as opposed to earlier Earth Mother worship) came from warring Levantine tribes, i.e. the Midianites. Certainly the word "amen" used by Christians is derived from the Hindu.

 

[johnnobts]

Yes, these are all general names for God. A Christian who speaks arabic can refer to God as "Allah," that's not a big deal. but make no mistake, the God he is calling out to in prayer is not the same God as described in the Qu'ran.

________________________________
Certainly the word "amen" used by Christians is derived from the Hindu.

Can you explain how? Amen, from the Hebrew origin, "aleph, mem, nun" root, means to agree, to wholeheartedly accept something as true. Amen is actually a plural verb meaning, "We agree, or we affirm this to be true."

I have Hebrew and Greek language training, not so much on Hindu.

 

[johnnobts]

also, your idea of mithraism leading to Christianity is absolutely false. its a paper tiger argument, to make the claim that there are strong parallels b/w the two when there simply aren't.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
Yes, these are all general names for God. A Christian who speaks arabic can refer to God as "Allah," that's not a big deal. but make no mistake, the God he is calling out to in prayer is not the same God as described in the Qu'ran.

How can you still make that claim when your arguments have been rebuked? You still haven't addressed eskimospy's point that christians and jews worship the same god even though jews don't believe in the divinity of Jesus.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
also, your idea of mithraism leading to Christianity is absolutely false. its a paper tiger argument, to make the claim that there are strong parallels b/w the two when there simply aren't.

Ridiculous. Of course there are. It's no paper tiger at all. Obviously, you don't know anything about Mithraism.

Where to begin? Well, for starters, Constantine, the Roman emperior who "converted" Rome to Christianity was a devout follower of Mithras (who he would have called Sol Invictus), and it was Constantine who insisted that the Council of Nicea establish the divinity of Jesus Christ.
Next, the purpose of Mithras was to act as the mediator between humanity and God (Ahura Mazda). None came to Mazda save they went through Mithras first. Sound familiar?
Then there's the virgin birth of Mithras on December 25, which took place in a cave (contrast to the manger in stable). Oops.

And so forth.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
we believe he is God's Son who came to this earth in the flesh, born of a virgin. he lived a sinless life. he died on the cross as a substitute for our sin, a perfect sacrifice. he was buried in the tomb, and 3 days later he rose from the dead.

muslims also agree jesus was born of a virgin and that he was sinless and did miracles. they deny his death and resurrection, as well as his saving work, not to mention his deity.

I think that if you didn't believe these things, if you began to see they can't possibly be factual in literal terms, that you could collapse into emotional chaos and suffer deeply. I think it is THAT fear that makes you believe. That, in my opinion is fanaticism, that you don't have real faith. I think the only thing you need to have faith in is that you are forgiven. It doesn't really matter what you believe if you actually know and feel that.

I think also, there is a difference between believing you are forgiven and actually feeling it. That state of grace, I think, comes best and most reliably through suffering and grief. I think this is why Christ came to save those who seem most worthless because they are the closest there. It is easier to die to yourself when you're already pretty much dead. He who is worth the least has the easiest trip. It is the meek who have little ego.

 

[imported_iNGEN]

I am not muslim. I have worked for the last twelve years for a small business owned by a muslim couple. I am not an expert in theology. However, I have inquired quite a bit over the last decade or so about similarities/dissimilarities between Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.

It is my understanding, Islam is much more fluid in its dogma than Christianity, which is in-turn more fluid than Judaism. In Islam the audience of the messenger as well as the timing of his message even more so than the content determines the "priority" of the message. All three take the books of the old testament as true. They may differ a bit on interpretation of the content, as well as the literal translation of the content just like the different version of the New Testament (NIV, King James, etc.) Muslims accept nearly all of the record of Jesus' life upto and including the Crucifixion, but little thereafter. They do not accept the divinity of Jesus. They say he was not the Christ. They do not, however, believe he is not the Christ. Different denominations think differently about the coming of the Christ and whether or not Jesus plays a role. Muslim's generally agree Jesus was sent by God to deliver a divine message. That is to say he was a prophet. However, Mohammed came after, which means his message is of much greater weight. But Mohammed and Jesus were both sent by the same god.

A little verbose, but I hope that answers the original question.

 

[johnnobts]

and it was Constantine who insisted that the Council of Nicea establish the divinity of Jesus Christ.

FALSE:

Yes, Constantine conveined the council of Nicea. But he wasn't the one who "made Jesus God." Again, this was the assertion of the disciples since day 1 following Easter Sunday, that Jesus rose from the dead, that he is the Son of God. This is the testimony of the very first generation of martyrs for the church, who died in the name of Christ their Lord. During the council of Nicea the church leaders voted almost unanimously that Jesus was "homoousia," of the very same substance as God the Father. Contrary to what people read or see in the Davinci Code, church history tells us this vote was not even close. Only 2 people in the council of some 300 church leaders voted against this creed about Christ being God. They supported the cultic teachings of Arius and were rejected by the church as heretical. They had cults back then just as we do today.

here's an exerpt from the Council of Nicea for you. This is what the churches presented as their statement of faith concerning Christ and his nature. Again, this was always the church's position, but was clearly articulated via the council:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance (homousion) with the Father, by whom all things were made, both which be in heaven and in earth, who for us men and for our salvation came down and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge both the quick and the dead. And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost.

And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not, or that before he was begotten he was not, or that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversion?all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them.

MITHRAISM:

Norman Geisler summarizes Mithraism by writing, "We do know that Mithraism, like its mystery competitors, had a basic myth. Mithra was supposedly born when he emerged from a rock; he was carrying a knife and torch and wearing a phrygian cap. He battled first with the sun and then the primeval bull, which then became the ground of life for the human race."7 In comparison, Geisler points out that "the foundation stones of Christianity are patently taken from the Old Testament, Judaism generally, and the life of a historical figure named Jesus."8 Mithraism was an evolving religion, Persian and Indian in nature, but was taken in an changed during the Roman Empire. it was a militant fertility cult. Most historians actually concur that Mithraism chose to adopt certain aspects of Christianity later on (Roman Mithraism). Christianity did not need to borrow from a fertility cult, its origins are firmly rooted in the Jewish Scriptures (Isaiah 53, Gen. 22, Gen 40, Psalm 132:10-11, Psalm 110:1, Isaiah 7:14, Zech 14:7, I can go on...)

 

[tealk]

They do not beleive in the same God. There is only but one God.....Jesus Christ of the Bible.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: tealk
They do not beleive in the same God. There is only but one God.....Jesus Christ of the Bible.

You're first claim has no logical connection to your second one. They believe in the same god, they just don't share all of the same beliefs about that same god. Your opinion is that your belief is correct and thats fine, however it doesn't change the fact that muslims pray to the same god that christians and jews do.

 

[Keblerelf04]

Originally posted by: tealk
They do not beleive in the same God. There is only but one God.....Jesus Christ of the Bible.

is there actually a religion that believes this or are you just being sarcastic...as far as I know there isn't a church that believes jesus created himself...

 

[johnnobts]

as far as I know there isn't a church that believes jesus created himself...

____

Of course there is, the Christian Church. See John chapter 1. See Colossians chapter 1. JEsus is depicted as the co-eternal Son of God, being of the same nature as God. He is not a creation, quite the opposite, he is reffered to as the "agent of creation," nothing was made apart from him. Jesus did come into this world as a human being (incarnate), but he was pre-existant ("the Word became flesh and dwelt among us").

 

[Moonbeam]

I do not know what Islam says about Jews and Christians going to heaven so I asked Google and got the following from this link where somebody basically asked the same thing:

"Thank you very much for your question.

There is a great difference between the Christian understanding of divine grace and the Muslim understanding of it.

One belief that is generally held by most Christians is that only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God who underwent the Passion and died for their sins, will go to heaven. No matter that you believe in God and do good works; you will be in hell if you do not accept that Jesus died for you. And even if you lead a horrible life but believe at the same time that Jesus atoned for you in advance, you will be saved and go to heaven.

In contrast to this, the Qur?an very clearly says what means:

*{Those who believe [in the Qur?an], and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians,?any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:62)

The point of the verse is that Islam does not teach an exclusive doctrine, and it is not meant exclusively for one people. The Jews and Christians hold on to their respective versions of exclusivism, whereas the attitude of Islam is entirely different. Islam existed before the preaching of Muhammad (peace be upon him) on this earth. From the Qur?anic perspective, all those who submitted to God before Muhammad (peace be upon him) were Muslims. Islam or submission to God's will has been and will be the religion for all time and for all peoples.

So it is no surprise that the Qur?an calls Abraham a Muslim. The Qur?an says what means:
*{Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in faith, and bowed his will to God's [which is Islam], and he joined not gods with God.}* (Aal `Imran 3:67)

To call Abraham a Jew or a Christian would be inaccurate, as Judaism and Christianity came after the time of Abraham. Indeed the very names of those religions suggest their beginnings generations after Abraham, while he could very well be called a Muslim, meaning one who submitted to God.

This means that those descendants of Abraham who follow his path are also bound to be in the right. The Qur?an says what means:
*{Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham are those who follow him, as are also this Apostle and those who believe: And God is the Protector of those who have faith.}* (Aal `Imran 3:68)

So what should we say to those who claim that only Jews or Christians will go to heaven? Allah Almighty Himself gives us guidance. The Qur?an says what means:
*{They say: ?Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided [to salvation].? Say thou: ?Nay! [I would rather] the religion of Abraham the Hanif (the truly-guided), and he joined not gods with God.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:135)



*{Say ye: ?We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to [all] prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to God [in Islam].}* (Al-Baqarah 2:136)

Thus ,we must understand that all the prophets of God carried the same Message of God and taught the same way to Heaven. And that is Islam.

And Allah knows best.

Thank you and please keep in touch.

Salam."

 

[johnnobts]

jesus died on the cross, he was buried, he rose again. his mother, mary was there at the foot of the cross, along with john, who saw him die. even non-christian historians write about jesus' death. muslims deny his death. they believe a prophet would never be humiated in such a way. yet in jesus own words, he came to this earth to serve and to suffer. as john the baptist wrote about Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." Lambs were for sacrifice.

 

[1EZduzit]

It isn't that Conservatives are arrogant, it's just they they know so much that isn't so.

 

[johnnobts]

ok, not really a thread about politics, but thanks.

 

[1EZduzit]

Just trying to help.

 

[zinfamous]

you people make me want to punch babies.

 

[manowar821]

lol yes

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
jesus died on the cross, he was buried, he rose again. his mother, mary was there at the foot of the cross, along with john, who saw him die. even non-christian historians write about jesus' death. muslims deny his death. they believe a prophet would never be humiated in such a way. yet in jesus own words, he came to this earth to serve and to suffer. as john the baptist wrote about Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." Lambs were for sacrifice.

If your belief in this leads to to a true feeling that you are forgiven I have no problem with that and even think it's great. The only problem I have with what I would refer to as fundamentalist Christians is where they preach exclusivity, that Jesus is the only way, and that means what they think it means. This inflexible, irrational, illogical, and patently obvious falsehood, common among far more than Christians, is in my opinion an attitude that is killing the world. The arrogance of the religious fanatic is that he would rather die and take the rest of the world with him than admit that somebody else may find God in a way that is different from him.

 

[johnnobts]

The only problem I have with what I would refer to as fundamentalist Christians is where they preach exclusivity, that Jesus is the only way, and that means what they think it means. This inflexible, irrational, illogical, and patently obvious falsehood, common among far more than Christians, is in my opinion an attitude that is killing the world. The arrogance of the religious fanatic is that he would rather die and take the rest of the world with him than admit that somebody else may find God in a way that is different from him.
----------------------------

again, jesus calls himself the only way. jesus is not a universalist. as a follower of christ i will live by the words of christ.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: johnnobts
jesus died on the cross, he was buried, he rose again. his mother, mary was there at the foot of the cross, along with john, who saw him die. even non-christian historians write about jesus' death. muslims deny his death. they believe a prophet would never be humiated in such a way. yet in jesus own words, he came to this earth to serve and to suffer. as john the baptist wrote about Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." Lambs were for sacrifice.

If your belief in this leads to to a true feeling that you are forgiven I have no problem with that and even think it's great. The only problem I have with what I would refer to as fundamentalist Christians is where they preach exclusivity, that Jesus is the only way, and that means what they think it means. This inflexible, irrational, illogical, and patently obvious falsehood, common among far more than Christians, is in my opinion an attitude that is killing the world. The arrogance of the religious fanatic is that he would rather die and take the rest of the world with him than admit that somebody else may find God in a way that is different from him.

The Bible teaches that Jesus said he was the only way. Christians aren't just preaching that out of there own heads. It is what they believe b/c it says that in the Bible. The problem is that if you believe in the bible, then you haveto believe that Jesus is the only way.

I don't see what the big deal is with claiming exclusivity. It isn't like you (or anyone else in the world) can't choose to become a Christian. Then you wouldn't be excluded!

 

[Moonbeam]

But what you Christian Fundamentalists mean by 'only way' is not necessarily what Jesus meant by it. The Christ is not a person. It IS what IS whey ones ego is not, in my opinion, and that is the only way. You have to die to the self to enter the kingdom of heaven because heaven is what is when there is only BEING. That which is Real, that which is True, that which is the Image of God appears and IS only when the false self is not. Man is sick because he feels himself to be an ego or individual when in fact the self is an illusion. It is the death of the ego you have to die through Crucifixion and it is the same death a Muslim dies when he surrenders to the Will of God. To believe in God is to disappear. This is how I see it anyway.