Do people "owe" anything to mankind?

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer
yes, you take up your parents time and money, public school funding, and use up natural resources, producing pollution. i think we are responsible to do more than make money for ourselves and spend it. we need to do something that produces benefit for other members of society, or this world is going down the toilet

Again, most things done to benefit mankind have been done for purely selfish reasons. Be that glory, recognition, fame or profit.

They were also done to preserve a free, peaceful, prosperous would for which they can live in.

Morality and ethics are rooted in selfishness as well. I do not want to be stolen from, therefore theft is wrong. I do not want to be murdered therefore murder is wrong. I do not want to be lied to, therefore lying is wrong, I don;t want my wife fscking other men, therefore adultery is wrong...

So the fact that after work, I will sometimes go to the side store to buy a few snacks and then drop them beside some sleeping homeless guy is somehow selfish? That mindset can get you thinking very strangely. I mean it is true that is a big percentage of cases kind acts have some selfishness in them, but not all of them do. <sigh> That kind of thinking leads to problems.

Now if you followed Kant's philosophy of social order leading to morality that makes some sense, but even this isn't true in all cases.

Even your actions can be said to have some selfish motivation. You do these things to make YOU feel good and I bet you tell people (oops, you just did ) that you do these things also....so in effect you are looking for a pat on the back. Sorry, but almost everything a human does has some selfish motivation involved.

 

[desy]

Fine
Heres one by a renouned economist proven more right than wrong
Happier?
I found Roark to be pitiable not enviable. His uncompromising attitude got him a life of discontent so if his 'selfish goal' was to be unhappy mission accomplished.

I don't discount all Ayn has to say and fotunately we live in a society large enough that that attitude isn't permisive and we can absorb that type of dickhead just as easily the welfare bum and still have a functional system.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer
yes, you take up your parents time and money, public school funding, and use up natural resources, producing pollution. i think we are responsible to do more than make money for ourselves and spend it. we need to do something that produces benefit for other members of society, or this world is going down the toilet

Again, most things done to benefit mankind have been done for purely selfish reasons. Be that glory, recognition, fame or profit.

They were also done to preserve a free, peaceful, prosperous would for which they can live in.

Morality and ethics are rooted in selfishness as well. I do not want to be stolen from, therefore theft is wrong. I do not want to be murdered therefore murder is wrong. I do not want to be lied to, therefore lying is wrong, I don;t want my wife fscking other men, therefore adultery is wrong...

So the fact that after work, I will sometimes go to the side store to buy a few snacks and then drop them beside some sleeping homeless guy is somehow selfish? That mindset can get you thinking very strangely. I mean it is true that is a big percentage of cases kind acts have some selfishness in them, but not all of them do. <sigh> That kind of thinking leads to problems.

Now if you followed Kant's philosophy of social order leading to morality that makes some sense, but even this isn't true in all cases.

Do you do this to help him, or make yourself feel better? Honestly?

And the better bet is to do what I do... contribute to organized shelters that offer food, clothing, shelter and training to the homeless so they can actually pull themselves out of the gutter rather than stay there living off the guilt of misguided people.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer
yes, you take up your parents time and money, public school funding, and use up natural resources, producing pollution. i think we are responsible to do more than make money for ourselves and spend it. we need to do something that produces benefit for other members of society, or this world is going down the toilet

Again, most things done to benefit mankind have been done for purely selfish reasons. Be that glory, recognition, fame or profit.

They were also done to preserve a free, peaceful, prosperous would for which they can live in.

Morality and ethics are rooted in selfishness as well. I do not want to be stolen from, therefore theft is wrong. I do not want to be murdered therefore murder is wrong. I do not want to be lied to, therefore lying is wrong, I don;t want my wife fscking other men, therefore adultery is wrong...

So the fact that after work, I will sometimes go to the side store to buy a few snacks and then drop them beside some sleeping homeless guy is somehow selfish? That mindset can get you thinking very strangely. I mean it is true that is a big percentage of cases kind acts have some selfishness in them, but not all of them do. <sigh> That kind of thinking leads to problems.

Now if you followed Kant's philosophy of social order leading to morality that makes some sense, but even this isn't true in all cases.

Do you do this to help him, or make yourself feel better? Honestly?

And the better bet is to do what I do... contribute to organized shelters that offer food, clothing, shelter and training to the homeless so they can actually pull themselves out of the gutter rather than stay there living off the guilt of misguided people.

Both, but it isn't done to make myself feel better, it is out of pity first, I feel good about it afterwards though. I will warrant as I did before, there is selfishness in many things that you do. If it includes you, it usually has some selfish reason behind it. But that is not neccessary for everything that is done, and it can lead to unshakey ground if you believe that everything is spurred from selfishness.

Yeah, I do that, too. Around where I live there is a group that does that, I give money and clothing to them.

There are a few good shelters around where I work where the homeless guys can go for food, but many of these guys tend to be out of their mind from overuse of drugs (they can't pull themselves out anymore, their minds are too shot to do anything <Ozzie Osborne except worse>, sad to say ), and most of these shelters won't take them for extended periods (although they do give out clothing and food). They would cause problems.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: skace
If man does not owe anything to anyone but himself, then how is he here, how did he survive, how does he function. Can everyone steal the knowledge back that has been given to him. His parents may have raised him, but who raised his parents, who defended their country, and their forefathers, and maybe 500 years ago his family was the poorest one ever but survived based on the good deeds of others. How absolutely fvcking short sighted it is to say you don't need anyone else and thereby shouldn't help anyone else. It is like the young kid who tells the old man that health insurance is stupid because he is completely healthy right now.

But that response was more towards all of the replies in this thread. As to the original post, he does not owe it to anyone to give the cure. Because if this actually occured, the world would go on knowing that there simply isn't a cure for cancer, nothing would change. The only person he has truely let down is himself, he worked hard and had finally found the fruits of his labor, a cure for one of the harshest and most unavoidable diseases in existence. And he threw it all away for one night of trivial celebrating and really poor judgement of driving drunk. Another choice and his name would have been paramount to modern medicine, but instead his name would be nothing.

So, you're saying people go off and fight wars because they are noble and want to give their lives so that others may live? Come on. Who's really being short sighted here?

 

[Sideswipe001]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer
yes, you take up your parents time and money, public school funding, and use up natural resources, producing pollution. i think we are responsible to do more than make money for ourselves and spend it. we need to do something that produces benefit for other members of society, or this world is going down the toilet

Again, most things done to benefit mankind have been done for purely selfish reasons. Be that glory, recognition, fame or profit.

They were also done to preserve a free, peaceful, prosperous would for which they can live in.

Morality and ethics are rooted in selfishness as well. I do not want to be stolen from, therefore theft is wrong. I do not want to be murdered therefore murder is wrong. I do not want to be lied to, therefore lying is wrong, I don;t want my wife fscking other men, therefore adultery is wrong...

There's a fundamental difference between wanting your own life to be better, however, and "selfishness" as it's percieved to mean.

Selfishness generally means that you ONLY care about yourself, with a "screw everyone else" attitude. That's not what I percieve that you're saying, however.

Everyone works to be happy, or at peace, inside of themselves. I firmly believe that all people's actions are centered around achieving this, even if it's subconsious. Therefore, yes, I am nice to other people because it makes me feel better. I apologize because I feel bad when I do soemthing to hurt someone. But that doesn't jive with selfishness in the way most of us define it. If I'm trying to make the world better for everyone, so that I can enjoy a better world, I'm still trying to make the world better for everyone.

Someone said earlier they lived in a world created by their neighbors - remember that your neighbors live in a world that is, in part, created by you. This is where my original question came from really. Do you care what kind of world you are helping to create for others?

The life of one person makes incalculable "ripples" throughout the rest of the world. How much do you care about what you're sending out?

 

[SaltBoy]

I haven't really read through the whole thread, but I'd like to offer my two cents:

If we are TRULY selfish, we will have to be TRULY selfless. It's the great paradox of life.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Sideswipe001

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer
yes, you take up your parents time and money, public school funding, and use up natural resources, producing pollution. i think we are responsible to do more than make money for ourselves and spend it. we need to do something that produces benefit for other members of society, or this world is going down the toilet

Again, most things done to benefit mankind have been done for purely selfish reasons. Be that glory, recognition, fame or profit.

They were also done to preserve a free, peaceful, prosperous would for which they can live in.

Morality and ethics are rooted in selfishness as well. I do not want to be stolen from, therefore theft is wrong. I do not want to be murdered therefore murder is wrong. I do not want to be lied to, therefore lying is wrong, I don;t want my wife fscking other men, therefore adultery is wrong...

There's a fundamental difference between wanting your own life to be better, however, and "selfishness" as it's percieved to mean.

Selfishness generally means that you ONLY care about yourself, with a "screw everyone else" attitude. That's not what I percieve that you're saying, however.

Everyone works to be happy, or at peace, inside of themselves. I firmly believe that all people's actions are centered around achieving this, even if it's subconsious. Therefore, yes, I am nice to other people because it makes me feel better. I apologize because I feel bad when I do soemthing to hurt someone. But that doesn't jive with selfishness in the way most of us define it. If I'm trying to make the world better for everyone, so that I can enjoy a better world, I'm still trying to make the world better for everyone.

Someone said earlier they lived in a world created by their neighbors - remember that your neighbors live in a world that is, in part, created by you. This is where my original question came from really. Do you care what kind of world you are helping to create for others?

The life of one person makes incalculable "ripples" throughout the rest of the world. How much do you care about what you're sending out?

That depends...how much do you care about what I'm sending out?

 

[Sideswipe001]

That depends...how much do you care about what I'm sending out?

Quite a bit.

I'd actually say that people in general care a lot more about how other people's actions affect them, than how much their actions affect other people.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Sideswipe001

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer
yes, you take up your parents time and money, public school funding, and use up natural resources, producing pollution. i think we are responsible to do more than make money for ourselves and spend it. we need to do something that produces benefit for other members of society, or this world is going down the toilet

Again, most things done to benefit mankind have been done for purely selfish reasons. Be that glory, recognition, fame or profit.

They were also done to preserve a free, peaceful, prosperous would for which they can live in.

Morality and ethics are rooted in selfishness as well. I do not want to be stolen from, therefore theft is wrong. I do not want to be murdered therefore murder is wrong. I do not want to be lied to, therefore lying is wrong, I don;t want my wife fscking other men, therefore adultery is wrong...

There's a fundamental difference between wanting your own life to be better, however, and "selfishness" as it's percieved to mean.

Selfishness generally means that you ONLY care about yourself, with a "screw everyone else" attitude. That's not what I percieve that you're saying, however.

Everyone works to be happy, or at peace, inside of themselves. I firmly believe that all people's actions are centered around achieving this, even if it's subconsious. Therefore, yes, I am nice to other people because it makes me feel better. I apologize because I feel bad when I do soemthing to hurt someone. But that doesn't jive with selfishness in the way most of us define it. If I'm trying to make the world better for everyone, so that I can enjoy a better world, I'm still trying to make the world better for everyone.

Someone said earlier they lived in a world created by their neighbors - remember that your neighbors live in a world that is, in part, created by you. This is where my original question came from really. Do you care what kind of world you are helping to create for others?

The life of one person makes incalculable "ripples" throughout the rest of the world. How much do you care about what you're sending out?

Go back and carefully read my posts. You have not really disputed anything I have said.

Selfishness for the thinking man means making a better world for which to live in. This means he is not the only one to benefit.

Yes, "selfish" has been demonized. But when one truly looks at the motivation behind most actions that benefit mankind, selfishness is at the root of it all... including all morality and ethics.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Sideswipe001

That depends...how much do you care about what I'm sending out?

Quite a bit.

I'd actually say that people in general care a lot more about how other people's actions affect them, than how much their actions affect other people.

Which is why the golden rule is so wise (and why it's so sad that it's not taught anymore). You cannot have a civilized society unless you participate in it as well.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: ElFenix

voluntarily giving of oneself is slavery? that's the biggest load of horse manure you've shoveled all day.

Altruism is living for someone else. Slavery is living for someone else.

Selfishness is living for yourself. Freedom is selfish. Altrusim is the opposite of freedom.

i think you missed the bolded word

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Amused
I take responsibility for my risks. I do not risk the lives of others and it is no one's business if I risk my own unless I ask that they pay for my mistakes.

so you would be in favor of people taking responsibility for the risks they take and the messes they create?