do restaurant employers have the right to pay for credit card service fees out of waiter's salary?

[lupi]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

ALL states prohibit those wages. In fact, FEDERAL law prohibits such total wages. Under federal law, if an employee's reported tips do not bring that employee's total income up to at least the non-tippable minimum wage, then the employer has to make up the difference. It is incredibly rare for tippable employees not to come in well above the non-tippable minimum wage when tips are included.

ZV

Originally posted by: Fern

I'm pretty sure they ARE paid at least the full minimum wage. I.e., if the tips and the $2.13 combined don't meet minimum wage standards the employer has to make an additional payment to the employee so they do.

Fern

You BOTH are missing my point. Several states require the employer to pay their tipped employees the full minimum wage...with NO tip credit. The employees get to keep their tips (or pool them) on top of the minimum wage.


I travelled a lot for my work over the years. The small differences in prices at restaurants could have just as easily been attributed to local factors such as land costs, taxes, etc., rather than on the difference between $2.13 sub-minimum wage and the full minimum wage.

I've never believed that a server's tips should be counted towards the minimum wage. The employer should be required to pay the full minimum wage and the tips be totally separate. (I don't tip the restaurant, I tip the server...why should the restaurant owner be allowed to take a credit for what I give the server?)

minimum wage should be irrelevant of possible tips and tips should not be a required for entrance standard.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

ALL states prohibit those wages. In fact, FEDERAL law prohibits such total wages. Under federal law, if an employee's reported tips do not bring that employee's total income up to at least the non-tippable minimum wage, then the employer has to make up the difference. It is incredibly rare for tippable employees not to come in well above the non-tippable minimum wage when tips are included.

ZV

Originally posted by: Fern

I'm pretty sure they ARE paid at least the full minimum wage. I.e., if the tips and the $2.13 combined don't meet minimum wage standards the employer has to make an additional payment to the employee so they do.

Fern

You BOTH are missing my point. Several states require the employer to pay their tipped employees the full minimum wage...with NO tip credit. The employees get to keep their tips (or pool them) on top of the minimum wage.

-snip-

Then, unlesss there's a "no Tipping" policy, wait staff has a defacto higher min wage requirement than all other classes of employees. That makes no sense to me. Why advocate it?

Fern

Then are you also saying that it's unfair to pay one person $8.00 hr, (Kahleeforneeya minimum wage) pay another person $8.50, and still another person $9.00, even if they're essentially doing the same job?

I advocate fair equitable treatment. NO employee should be subject to a sub-standard wage and be dependent on tips to make the minimum wage.
Let the business owner pay them all at least the same minimum wage and let the customer decide if the server is worth the extra bit in the form of a tip.

 

[Thorny]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

ALL states prohibit those wages. In fact, FEDERAL law prohibits such total wages. Under federal law, if an employee's reported tips do not bring that employee's total income up to at least the non-tippable minimum wage, then the employer has to make up the difference. It is incredibly rare for tippable employees not to come in well above the non-tippable minimum wage when tips are included.

ZV

Originally posted by: Fern

I'm pretty sure they ARE paid at least the full minimum wage. I.e., if the tips and the $2.13 combined don't meet minimum wage standards the employer has to make an additional payment to the employee so they do.

Fern

You BOTH are missing my point. Several states require the employer to pay their tipped employees the full minimum wage...with NO tip credit. The employees get to keep their tips (or pool them) on top of the minimum wage.

-snip-

Then, unlesss there's a "no Tipping" policy, wait staff has a defacto higher min wage requirement than all other classes of employees. That makes no sense to me. Why advocate it?

Fern

Then are you also saying that it's unfair to pay one person $8.00 hr, (Kahleeforneeya minimum wage) pay another person $8.50, and still another person $9.00, even if they're essentially doing the same job?

I advocate fair equitable treatment. NO employee should be subject to a sub-standard wage and be dependent on tips to make the minimum wage.
Let the business owner pay them all at least the same minimum wage and let the customer decide if the server is worth the extra bit in the form of a tip.

The servers are NOT DEPENDANT on tips. If they do not recieve enough tips to get them to minimum wage the store must pay them more than tip wages to compensate. Even if a server recieves no tips on a given night, they STILL will get paid the same as everyone else. Guess what, I have NEVER had to increase a servers wages because they didn't make enough tips to get them to minimum wage. I've even had servers provide horrible service and still make more than anyone else in the building, including the management that reprimanded them after the fact.

Look at it this way. If a restaurant is able to pay servers tip wages, they can hire more servers and offer a higher quality of service to thier customers. This will increase the amount of tips each server recieves due to the better dining experience. If full wages must be paid, the amount of servers is either reduced or the price of food goes up, reducing the percieved value of the meal and therefore the amount of tips recieved.

Everyone one wins with tip wages. You get a better meal for a lower price because the store gets a bigger staff at the same cost. The servers are still guaranteed the same minimum wage as everyone else, so there is no loser here.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Thorny

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

ALL states prohibit those wages. In fact, FEDERAL law prohibits such total wages. Under federal law, if an employee's reported tips do not bring that employee's total income up to at least the non-tippable minimum wage, then the employer has to make up the difference. It is incredibly rare for tippable employees not to come in well above the non-tippable minimum wage when tips are included.

ZV

Originally posted by: Fern

I'm pretty sure they ARE paid at least the full minimum wage. I.e., if the tips and the $2.13 combined don't meet minimum wage standards the employer has to make an additional payment to the employee so they do.

Fern

You BOTH are missing my point. Several states require the employer to pay their tipped employees the full minimum wage...with NO tip credit. The employees get to keep their tips (or pool them) on top of the minimum wage.

-snip-

Then, unlesss there's a "no Tipping" policy, wait staff has a defacto higher min wage requirement than all other classes of employees. That makes no sense to me. Why advocate it?

Fern

Then are you also saying that it's unfair to pay one person $8.00 hr, (Kahleeforneeya minimum wage) pay another person $8.50, and still another person $9.00, even if they're essentially doing the same job?

I advocate fair equitable treatment. NO employee should be subject to a sub-standard wage and be dependent on tips to make the minimum wage.
Let the business owner pay them all at least the same minimum wage and let the customer decide if the server is worth the extra bit in the form of a tip.

The servers are NOT DEPENDANT on tips. If they do not recieve enough tips to get them to minimum wage the store must pay them more than tip wages to compensate. Even if a server recieves no tips on a given night, they STILL will get paid the same as everyone else. Guess what, I have NEVER had to increase a servers wages because they didn't make enough tips to get them to minimum wage. I've even had servers provide horrible service and still make more than anyone else in the building, including the management that reprimanded them after the fact.

Look at it this way. If a restaurant is able to pay servers tip wages, they can hire more servers and offer a higher quality of service to thier customers. This will increase the amount of tips each server recieves due to the better dining experience. If full wages must be paid, the amount of servers is either reduced or the price of food goes up, reducing the percieved value of the meal and therefore the amount of tips recieved.

Everyone one wins with tip wages. You get a better meal for a lower price because the store gets a bigger staff at the same cost. The servers are still guaranteed the same minimum wage as everyone else, so there is no loser here.

sounds great in theory... in practice it fails.
Restaurants which pay tip wages, rarely use the lower costs to actually hire more help.
the workers percieve that they are being paid less, because they should be paid a full wage, and then their gratuity on top of that... not a half wage, and using the gratuity to bring them above minimum wage.
These workers are then disgruntled, and the dining experience suffers.

Gratuity is gratuity... and should remain so. it should never become part of the mandatory part of the minimum wage. Tips should be completely transparent to both the business and the taxing authority.

 

[alkemyst]

actually AFAIK a merchant is not allowed to pass through CC usage fees in any direct way nor require minimums. They can offer cash discounts, raise the cost of their goods, or a discount on purchases over X amount.

I am thinking the OP is more hypothetical here. If not there is a potential lawsuit those server's have ESPECIALLY if the money collected was more than the CC fees.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: sao123

sounds great in theory... in practice it fails.
Restaurants which pay tip wages, rarely use the lower costs to actually hire more help.
the workers percieve that they are being paid less, because they should be paid a full wage, and then their gratuity on top of that... not a half wage, and using the gratuity to bring them above minimum wage.
These workers are then disgruntled, and the dining experience suffers.

Gratuity is gratuity... and should remain so. it should never become part of the mandatory part of the minimum wage. Tips should be completely transparent to both the business and the taxing authority.

I don't know where you got your research unless just via observation at a TGIF type place.

At high end restaurants the servers know their salary can be greatly increased through ass kissing and quick and accurate service.

The problem is most of the young people today think they are better than anyone else and refuse to perform.

Not everyone gets to be the astronaut, someone has to watch the fries.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: sao123

sounds great in theory... in practice it fails.
Restaurants which pay tip wages, rarely use the lower costs to actually hire more help.
the workers percieve that they are being paid less, because they should be paid a full wage, and then their gratuity on top of that... not a half wage, and using the gratuity to bring them above minimum wage.
These workers are then disgruntled, and the dining experience suffers.

Gratuity is gratuity... and should remain so. it should never become part of the mandatory part of the minimum wage. Tips should be completely transparent to both the business and the taxing authority.

I don't know where you got your research unless just via observation at a TGIF type place.

At high end restaurants the servers know their salary can be greatly increased through ass kissing and quick and accurate service.

The problem is most of the young people today think they are better than anyone else and refuse to perform.

Not everyone gets to be the astronaut, someone has to watch the fries.

and yet the US government has guaranteed even the lowly fry watcher a minimum wage... not a minimum gratuity.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

So if a server is really bad, would it actually be worse to leave a $0.01 tip via credit card than nothing at all? Would they absorb the transaction fee, essentially costing them for my meal? Or is this fee universally shouldered by the servers regardless of tips?

 

[crownjules]

I think it's BS.

The resturant uses the CC service to give customers an additional payment option. The server has no say in whether the customer pays via cash or credit. Now he has to pay for the customer to use one of those options over which he has no control? The actual amount the server has to pay may be near neglible if he's only getting 3% (or whatever the CC service fee comes out to be) of his tip deducted, but that will add up over time.

 

[sao123]

IMO this is just part of an ever larger problem of merchants vs credit companies.
Text

merchants claiming credit card fees are too high, while CC companies are assuming the non-payment risk... and do not want fees passed along to customers.
merchants want to be able to force minimum purchases in order to use CC and other practices which will drive away customers.

i predict we will see some major reform coming in the next year over this battle.

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: sao123
i predict we will see some major reform coming in the next year over this battle.

I hope so. The credit industry gets away with so many underhanded practices and is by far under-regulated considering how much power they hold over everyone's life with credit scoring.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: crownjules
I think it's BS.

The resturant uses the CC service to give customers an additional payment option. The server has no say in whether the customer pays via cash or credit. Now he has to pay for the customer to use one of those options over which he has no control? The actual amount the server has to pay may be near neglible if he's only getting 3% (or whatever the CC service fee comes out to be) of his tip deducted, but that will add up over time.

Restaurants accept CCs because it gets them more business, right? Which means more customer for the waiters, right? Which means more money for the waiters, right? Why should the restaurant pay the fees for money the server is getting?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: sao123
i predict we will see some major reform coming in the next year over this battle.

I hope so. The credit industry gets away with so many underhanded practices and is by far under-regulated considering how much power they hold over everyone's life with credit scoring.

wrong way... its over here!!!

I'd prefer the reform actually enforce the terms of the CC's on the merchants.
i hate stores which now want to check your DL every time you use a CC... i also hate pizza shops which "oh your using visa?, have to charge you an extra dollar..." and I dont want Kmart telling me I cant use my CC for a $3 purchase because I refuse to carry any sort of cash, and i refuse to use a debit card.
CC fees are a cost of doing business... thats a business owners expense, not mine.

 

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: Dear Summer
When a customer pays with a credit card, visa/mastercard/etc charge a service fee.
The restaurant owner takes 5% off the employee's total tip money that was earned through cards. Does that make sense?

Is this legal? Shouldn't the restaurant owner bear this cost as operating expense instead of taking it from already low paid waiters and waitresses?

I don't see anything wrong with this. Why should the employer pay the fee on the tip portion of the bill? That money is all the servers. The employers bears the burden on the food he sold and the server covers the percentage on the tip he recieves. If the servers don't like it they can tell all their customers that they only accept tips in cash. Somehow I don't think they will be further ahead doing this however.

 

[hanoverphist]

Originally posted by: lxskllr
I'd just deal with it, and hook up my friends with free food. I ALWAYS win in the end :^D

that and i didnt know any wait staff that actually reported 100% of their cash tips. the credit tips was all they could force me to declare, since it was on paper. if they told me i was required to give them a % to pay their fees id quit and find a less petty employer.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: sao123


and yet the US government has guaranteed even the lowly fry watcher a minimum wage... not a minimum gratuity.

Well yes they do. I don't think you understand your own argument.

If any server didn't make at least minimum wage, they should be pulled out of the gene pool anyway...but the law says the restaurant needs to be sure all staff make minimum wage.

What is usually behind this debate is some stoner/felon wondering why he can't make $40k+ a year working off-shifts at the local pizza and burger joint.

 

[Thorny]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: sao123
i predict we will see some major reform coming in the next year over this battle.

I hope so. The credit industry gets away with so many underhanded practices and is by far under-regulated considering how much power they hold over everyone's life with credit scoring.

wrong way... its over here!!!

I'd prefer the reform actually enforce the terms of the CC's on the merchants.
i hate stores which now want to check your DL every time you use a CC... i also hate pizza shops which "oh your using visa?, have to charge you an extra dollar..." and I dont want Kmart telling me I cant use my CC for a $3 purchase because I refuse to carry any sort of cash, and i refuse to use a debit card.
CC fees are a cost of doing business... thats a business owners expense, not mine.

Sounds like you've got some entitlement issues. Merchants that charge extra or require minimum purchases for credit cards have just decided to charge YOU for the convienance that YOU want instead of charging everyone for it. Why should everyone have to pay more because YOU don't want to carry cash or a checkbook?

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the business owners expenses get passed on to the customer, so YOU pay for it in the end anyway, it's just a question of whether or not you're paying your fair share.

 

[alkemyst]

doesn't work that way...the merchant has to agree to accept a CC or not...they cannot instill minimums or tariffs on that.

 

[Thorny]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
doesn't work that way...the merchant has to agree to accept a CC or not...they cannot instill minimums or tariffs on that.

It does work that way. The cost is either built into the price of the item, or the store charges an extra fee at the register. You think the owner works a second job to pay the credit card fees so the customer doesn't have to?

 

[SilentZero]

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: Dear Summer
Is this legal? Shouldn't the restaurant owner bear this cost as operating expense instead of taking it from already low paid waiters and waitresses?

legal? probably
moral? probably not


owner can do whatever he wants, and if it's in the hiring paperwork as a condition of employment...

if you dont like it. quit.

This

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Thorny

Originally posted by: alkemyst
doesn't work that way...the merchant has to agree to accept a CC or not...they cannot instill minimums or tariffs on that.

It does work that way. The cost is either built into the price of the item, or the store charges an extra fee at the register. You think the owner works a second job to pay the credit card fees so the customer doesn't have to?

I was referring to this Merchants that charge extra or require minimum purchases for credit cards have just decided to charge YOU for the convienance that YOU want instead of

You were all over the place in that post. This statement is very wrong and against the TOS CC companies give.

 

[Thorny]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Thorny

Originally posted by: alkemyst
doesn't work that way...the merchant has to agree to accept a CC or not...they cannot instill minimums or tariffs on that.

It does work that way. The cost is either built into the price of the item, or the store charges an extra fee at the register. You think the owner works a second job to pay the credit card fees so the customer doesn't have to?

I was referring to this Merchants that charge extra or require minimum purchases for credit cards have just decided to charge YOU for the convienance that YOU want instead of

You were all over the place in that post. This statement is very wrong and against the TOS CC companies give.

How is the statement wrong? People do it all the time whether it's against the TOS or not. The statement is accurate, you just don't agree with the practice.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Thorny

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: sao123
i predict we will see some major reform coming in the next year over this battle.

I hope so. The credit industry gets away with so many underhanded practices and is by far under-regulated considering how much power they hold over everyone's life with credit scoring.

wrong way... its over here!!!

I'd prefer the reform actually enforce the terms of the CC's on the merchants.
i hate stores which now want to check your DL every time you use a CC... i also hate pizza shops which "oh your using visa?, have to charge you an extra dollar..." and I dont want Kmart telling me I cant use my CC for a $3 purchase because I refuse to carry any sort of cash, and i refuse to use a debit card.
CC fees are a cost of doing business... thats a business owners expense, not mine.

Sounds like you've got some entitlement issues. Merchants that charge extra or require minimum purchases for credit cards have just decided to charge YOU for the convienance that YOU want instead of charging everyone for it. Why should everyone have to pay more because YOU don't want to carry cash or a checkbook?

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the business owners expenses get passed on to the customer, so YOU pay for it in the end anyway, it's just a question of whether or not you're paying your fair share.

on the contrary, its you who seem to give the business owners a sense of entitlement.

the store doesnt accept credit cards for my convienience, it does it for the benefit of the store... why?

1)enables more sales - 2 identical stores, 1 accepts CC, the other doesnt - the first willinevitably make more sales.
2)immediate payment, no risk - instead of hoping checks dont bounce and get fees charged, the store gets full immediate payment, and the CC collections assumes the nonpayment risk.

the CC companies are doing more for the store owner than for the purchaser. its the store owner which should pay the associated costs.



more importantly...the terms of the agreement for the privilige of accepting a CC is that a person paying for an item with a CC, and a person paying cash for the same item, must be the same price. So again... its the owner who is responsible for paying the CC fees.

 

[alkemyst]

I guess you are the type that favors the assrape. Makes no sense debating this further...it has nothing to do with entitlement/etc that the merchant is violating their agreement and what you were promised from the card service.

 

[Q]

Sounds like the waiter/tress is getting screwed over to me