Do running shoes really matter?

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Megatomic
brikis98, we've all read your many evangelistic postings about the total awesomeness of the crossfit program. I've yet to see anyone denigrate your chosen activity, it's only fair to expect you to do the same. Thanks.

I do apologize for moving the post off topic. As I just said in my previous reply, I am NOT bashing those who run because they love running. In fact, all I actually said was that I am not into endurance running because I consider it a "pretty piss poor way to train [I suppose I should have added 'for my goals']." Anyways, looking back at how the topic got derailed this way, I wrote the above after Capt Caveman sarcastically replied "let us know when you're running a marathon in them [Vibram Five Fingers]". This was after I had suggested that improving your running technique is likely more important than what shoes you wear and that I had recently gotten VFFs to help me learn proper technique. So, let this last sentence be my official on-topic entry in this post

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: Megatomic
brikis98, we've all read your many evangelistic postings about the total awesomeness of the crossfit program. I've yet to see anyone denigrate your chosen activity, it's only fair to expect you to do the same. Thanks.

lol

 

[Capt Caveman]

brikis98 - none of the articles you post talk about properly fitted footwear. Put a motion control shoe on someone with neutral foot and you're asking for trouble. Ask someone with a flat foot that overpronates with bowlegs to run barefoot. Good luck. Since, finding the proper footwear(light stability/light weight) I haven't had ankle, knee, IT band issues in over 8 years. My current show is the New Balance 1085 which is a little more stable, little more cushion but at a tiny bit of more weight than the NB 903. Luckily, I live next to a New Balance outlet and was able to stock up on 4 pairs for $40/pair.

39 Topics in the Barefoot running forum at Runnersworld compared to the tens of thousands of other posts will tell you that Barefoot running isn't for everyone. Know why there's a Barefoot running forum now at RW? It's b/c there used to be a couple of barefoot running elitist that had to rip folks and cause trouble for anyone asking for shoe help in the Shoes forum.

Heck the CrossFit Endurance forum seems to want to sell trainer certifications more than discuss how the majority of folks deviate from the CrossFit Endurance program to run long distance races.

And for some reason, you seem to think that endurance runners don't do any cross training like weight lifting, cycling, swimming, tempo runs/intervals, etc...

 

[brikis98]

I'm going to try to keep this on topic by only responding to the parts directly related to proper footwear. If we wish to discuss endurance training, Crossfit, and so on, we should start a separate thread.

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
brikis98 - none of the articles you post talk about properly fitted footwear.

Are you sure you read them carefully? For example, this article alone references some 10 studies in just the "Chronic Injuries" section that discuss how the numerous "features" of shoes are potentially harmful and the fancier and more expensive the shoe, the worse it is. Just to be clear: I *certainly* agree that properly fitted footwear is better than improperly fitted footwear. However, as indicated in the articles I linked earlier, most modern footwear prevents us from using proper running technique, and hence any footwear can lead to more problems than no footwear or minimal footwear.

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Put a motion control shoe on someone with neutral foot and you're asking for trouble. Ask someone with a flat foot that overpronates with bowlegs to run barefoot. Good luck.

Well, I posted a number of articles that indicate running in shoes can increase the risk of injury whereas running barefoot may be perfectly safe. Rather than just shrugging off the results, do you know of any studies that show the opposite? For example, if an over or under pronator is allowed a few months to learn proper barefoot running technique, do we really know that it'll lead to "trouble"? Or will the opposite happen - the muscles of the foot/leg will strengthen and they'll have no issues? Because I find it hard to believe that a sufficiently high enough percentage of the human population has evolved feet that are incapable of running barefoot.

 

[Redfraggle]

I know people here are all about some Vibram Fivefingers, but it's not practical for most people (or at least not something most people will try). Since you are not going to run barefoot, we aren't really raised to do that, so I think adulthood is too late when you've had 25+yrs of wearing shoes. I'm a serious runner, and the shoes matter. I can tell when my shoes need replacing (like right now), and can tell you the joy I feel when running in a pair that suit my feet and my style. Take the advice given by others, and go to a small specialty shop where they will fit you for a proper shoe. They are expensive, even more expensive at small stores -- but you are also paying for the service. I'd pay a little more to know that I can go to a small shop that knows what's good/bad/new, and knows me.

 

[kotss]

Originally posted by: Redfraggle
I know people here are all about some Vibram Fivefingers, but it's not practical for most people (or at least not something most people will try). Since you are not going to run barefoot, we aren't really raised to do that, so I think adulthood is too late when you've had 25+yrs of wearing shoes. I'm a serious runner, and the shoes matter. I can tell when my shoes need replacing (like right now), and can tell you the joy I feel when running in a pair that suit my feet and my style. Take the advice given by others, and go to a small specialty shop where they will fit you for a proper shoe. They are expensive, even more expensive at small stores -- but you are also paying for the service. I'd pay a little more to know that I can go to a small shop that knows what's good/bad/new, and knows me.

I am not about everyone going to barefoot running style. But the overlooked fact is we are not born with shoes. Being barefoot is probably the best thing to do, find out how many nerve endings are in the foot compared to other parts of the body. Why would there be so many? I am not going to tell anyone to give up sneakers, I personally wear them for running myself. I do run as close as possible to when I wear VFF's though. The advice you get from people in a specialty shoe store is based on what knowledge they possess. Do you have any idea what their knowledge is? Are the they exercise physiologists or bio mechanical experts? I am by no means an expert, but I can read varying ideas and put them to use. I will take my experience and other peoples experience over an "experts" idea. I wear cheapo New Balance 474 ($50) for running and I also wear VFF's. (I am trying to do all my easy running in the VFF's.)

In the long run, "the barefoot" is the probably the best way to go, ideally. The reason is no one is trying to sell you a shoe. The shoe companies have gone out of their way to convince you that you need shoes to be comfortable, when you are most comfortable in your feet that you are born with. Take a look at a babies foot and then look at your poor mangled foot in comparison, why did it become mangled? (Not saying everybodies is, but there is a chance of it.)
I will not argue that their are some good reasons to wear shoes, such as in hazardous environments, etc.

Just because we can make shoes, does not mean we need them.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: Megatomic
Back on topic, shoes do matter. I found out the hard way (strained achilles tendon and plantar fasciaitis). The very best way to get the right shoes is to go to a specialty running store that measures your foot and analyzes your gait. They'll match you up with the best shoe for your individual needs. You only need to do that once, after that you can go anywhere to buy the same shoe over and over as needed.

Agreed. I use a local running store that lets me try on shoes and go for a run in them...then try a new pair until I'm happy with my choice. So far Mizuno's and Nike's have fit my foot best, but I always try new shoes when replacement time comes as my body changes as well as the shoe designs.

I used to get several "injuries" during training, but I haven't had one in years since I started buying shoes that properly fit. I've run 3 marathons and countless half marthons and 10K's. I would never buy another shoe without trying them on and taking a run in them.

 

[StageLeft]

Good arguments in this thread.

I am leaning toward the minimal side of things these days, but as always if something is working for you, why change it? Which is to say that if you're doing 40 or 50 miles/week in $140 shoes and having no issues, I'd be very cautious of changing anything. If you are having issues, do change them. And arguments in this thread may lead you toward a solution.

I will say that new runners start with big shoes and once in a blue moon goes down to a minimal approach. I think we should reverse this; all people should start on minimal shoes and only go up as necessary. I picture conventional running shoes as a back brace. People don't automatically assume a low back brace should be used, but rather they assume it shouldn't, and if there is a special problem they're having, that's when they use it. Conventional shoes are similar in execution, as they alter the natural stride.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: brikis98
Educate yourself a bit: humans have been running barefoot for millions of years during which evolution has perfected the foot for just that purpose. That's just a touch longer than the Nike has had to perfect the shoe.

Re-reading this thread....now, I am not commenting on bare foot running, or standard shoes vs five fingers. I don't know (or care) enough about the subject to really chime in there. However, this statement is absurd, no offense.

Human evolution "perfected" our immune system, yet how many fatal diseases has modern medicine wiped out in the past 50 years?
Human evolution "perfected" skin, and yet how many cases of skin cancer are prevented thanks to sun screen?
Human evolution "perfected" our body's heating/cooling system, yet people still wear clothes when its cold out.
Human evolution "perfected" our feet for running, and yet barefoot runners still wear vibram five fingers to protect their feet.

So on and so forth. Just because evolution adapted our body to doing something does not mean modern science can't improve it.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: brikis98
Educate yourself a bit: humans have been running barefoot for millions of years during which evolution has perfected the foot for just that purpose. That's just a touch longer than the Nike has had to perfect the shoe.

Re-reading this thread....now, I am not commenting on bare foot running, or standard shoes vs five fingers. I don't know (or care) enough about the subject to really chime in there. However, this statement is absurd, no offense.

Human evolution "perfected" our immune system, yet how many fatal diseases has modern medicine wiped out in the past 50 years?
Human evolution "perfected" skin, and yet how many cases of skin cancer are prevented thanks to sun screen?
Human evolution "perfected" our body's heating/cooling system, yet people still wear clothes when its cold out.
Human evolution "perfected" our feet for running, and yet barefoot runners still wear vibram five fingers to protect their feet.

So on and so forth. Just because evolution adapted our body to doing something does not mean modern science can't improve it.

This is very true. Now, in that vein, modern science needs to, after thinking it's improved something, prove it. In the case of shoes, it hasn't. In fact I'd go so far as to say no scientist could actually make the statement that, even in a general sense, modern running shoes are superior in benefit to those of, say, 40 years ago. They couldn't say it because the science simply doesn't support the statement.

I learned today of the Ecco Biom shoe. It's a $220 shoe intended to support natural foot strike. Of course, they go about it all wrong. You don't need tech to make a person strike naturally; you want to avoid tech.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: brikis98
Educate yourself a bit: humans have been running barefoot for millions of years during which evolution has perfected the foot for just that purpose. That's just a touch longer than the Nike has had to perfect the shoe.

Re-reading this thread....now, I am not commenting on bare foot running, or standard shoes vs five fingers. I don't know (or care) enough about the subject to really chime in there. However, this statement is absurd, no offense.

Human evolution "perfected" our immune system, yet how many fatal diseases has modern medicine wiped out in the past 50 years?
Human evolution "perfected" skin, and yet how many cases of skin cancer are prevented thanks to sun screen?
Human evolution "perfected" our body's heating/cooling system, yet people still wear clothes when its cold out.
Human evolution "perfected" our feet for running, and yet barefoot runners still wear vibram five fingers to protect their feet.

So on and so forth. Just because evolution adapted our body to doing something does not mean modern science can't improve it.

This is very true. Now, in that vein, modern science needs to, after thinking it's improved something, prove it. In the case of shoes, it hasn't. In fact I'd go so far as to say no scientist could actually make the statement that, even in a general sense, modern running shoes are superior in benefit to those of, say, 40 years ago. They couldn't say it because the science simply doesn't support the statement.

I learned today of the Ecco Biom shoe. It's a $220 shoe intended to support natural foot strike. Of course, they go about it all wrong. You don't need tech to make a person strike naturally; you want to avoid tech.

Yea, Deeko, I think you're taking that argument out of context. It was in response to a (sarcastic) comment from Capt Caveman where he doubted the ability of people to run marathons in VFF's (ie, w/o sneakers). My response was that humans have done plenty of running for countless years and that our foot is incredibly well adapted for it. I'm certainly not arguing that with science we couldn't do even better, but as Skoorb pointed out, there is little evidence that shows that modern shoes have actually managed to do that. If anything, many of the studies are showing that going barefoot is safer and more efficient.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: brikis98
Educate yourself a bit: humans have been running barefoot for millions of years during which evolution has perfected the foot for just that purpose. That's just a touch longer than the Nike has had to perfect the shoe.

Re-reading this thread....now, I am not commenting on bare foot running, or standard shoes vs five fingers. I don't know (or care) enough about the subject to really chime in there. However, this statement is absurd, no offense.

Human evolution "perfected" our immune system, yet how many fatal diseases has modern medicine wiped out in the past 50 years?
Human evolution "perfected" skin, and yet how many cases of skin cancer are prevented thanks to sun screen?
Human evolution "perfected" our body's heating/cooling system, yet people still wear clothes when its cold out.
Human evolution "perfected" our feet for running, and yet barefoot runners still wear vibram five fingers to protect their feet.

So on and so forth. Just because evolution adapted our body to doing something does not mean modern science can't improve it.

Human evolution pretty much did perfect our immune systems... locally at least. Smallpox wasn't a big deal to Europeans but wiped out native north americans because they had no exposure to the disease in their history. Most of our problems with diseases come from the fact that we travel farther, more often, and to more places in the world than we used to. It'll take a while for our immune systems to catch up.

I'm not sure about the skin cancer thing... how many Africans have access to daily sunscreen, and how much skin cancer do they have?

The clothing thing is another example of humans using technology to live beyond their natural means. It's like saying fish evolved perfect gills to breathe, but they can't survive on land.

And the foot thing is off base as well. The idea is that the mechanics have evolved to propel a human ideally - foot, ankle, shin, knee, muscles, tendons, ligaments, joints etc. If you walk around barefoot your entire life you'll build up callouses and won't need any shoes. The fact that we need vibrams to run "barefoot" comes from our wearing shoes all our lives.

Modern science can improve what our body is naturally able to do, but running shoes probably aren't one of them.

 

[Deeko]

So what you're basically saying is that people adapted to certain situations, and where their genetics failed, modern science prevailed and allowed them to live beyond their means.

By arguing with me, you actually proved my point. Solid.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Deeko
So what you're basically saying is that people adapted to certain situations, and where their genetics failed, modern science prevailed and allowed them to live beyond their means.

By arguing with me, you actually proved my point. Solid.

You called this post absurd:

"Educate yourself a bit: humans have been running barefoot for millions of years during which evolution has perfected the foot for just that purpose. That's just a touch longer than the Nike has had to perfect the shoe."

Please tell me exactly what kinds of extreme stresses we are putting on our feet that require stabilifoam, nike air, and a 2 inch thick block of foam because our feet haven't adapted to them yet.

People have been running for hundreds of thousands of years. Only very recently have we invented planes and gotten ourselves sick. It's no surprise that we need technology to help us adapt to the quick changes that rapid international travel bring us. Why should running be similar?

 

[Deeko]

Go back and read the beginning part of my post again.

 

[StageLeft]

This is becoming too academic and generic. The valid question here is pertaining specifically to running shoes, and the science is exceedingly light pointing to their benefits. Science has done wonders helping headaches and broken bones but has sucked ass so far at giving people a more effective way to run.

 

[katank]

Back to OP's question. Try things out which work best for you.

There are some surveys out which suggest higher priced shoes encourage heel striking and is heavily correlated with overuse injuries in the long run.

Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference. I tend to stick to some flat soled light canvas shoes myself and am thinking of trying VFFs in the near future. POSE running might also be worth looking into.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Deeko
So what you're basically saying is that people adapted to certain situations, and where their genetics failed, modern science prevailed and allowed them to live beyond their means.

By arguing with me, you actually proved my point. Solid.

You called this post absurd:

"Educate yourself a bit: humans have been running barefoot for millions of years during which evolution has perfected the foot for just that purpose. That's just a touch longer than the Nike has had to perfect the shoe."

Please tell me exactly what kinds of extreme stresses we are putting on our feet that require stabilifoam, nike air, and a 2 inch thick block of foam because our feet haven't adapted to them yet.

People have been running for hundreds of thousands of years. Only very recently have we invented planes and gotten ourselves sick. It's no surprise that we need technology to help us adapt to the quick changes that rapid international travel bring us. Why should running be similar?

Yet, more people are running now then ever before. Thanks to that invention the shoe.

 

[surfsatwerk]

For context I'm 290lbs and I jog for 30 to 45 minutes 4 to 5 times a week. I started out wearing a pair of flat soled athletic shoes I picked up for around $35. After 3 or 4 months of use I had some pretty severe and persistent joint pain. I upgraded to a pair of Brook's Glycerin 7 and it took about 2 or 3 weeks for my joint problems to resolve themselves and I've been using my new shoes for 3 months pain free. Granted I'm not nearly as athletic as most of the people posting in this thread but I'd be crippled by wearing anything like the VFF's or any cheap shoe to jog in.

 

[dealmaster00]

When I ran the $20 pair of asics did it for me.

 

[Megatomic]

I don't think I've ever seen a pair of Asics for $20. I wish I could find my Mizunos for that little.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Yet, more people are running now then ever before. Thanks to that invention the shoe.

Curious what you're basing that off of? Do you mean a higher percentage of our population is running than ever before in the history of man? Do you have any numbers to back that up, at all?

Because I'd guess that almost every single paleolithic (ie, before the advent of agriculture and, uh, shoes) man and woman spent a great deal of time running/walking to do the hunting & gathering they needed to survive. On the other hand, since people only run today for exercise and studies show that the percentage of our population that gets regular exercise is exceedingly small.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Deeko
So what you're basically saying is that people adapted to certain situations, and where their genetics failed, modern science prevailed and allowed them to live beyond their means.

By arguing with me, you actually proved my point. Solid.

You called this post absurd:

"Educate yourself a bit: humans have been running barefoot for millions of years during which evolution has perfected the foot for just that purpose. That's just a touch longer than the Nike has had to perfect the shoe."

Please tell me exactly what kinds of extreme stresses we are putting on our feet that require stabilifoam, nike air, and a 2 inch thick block of foam because our feet haven't adapted to them yet.

People have been running for hundreds of thousands of years. Only very recently have we invented planes and gotten ourselves sick. It's no surprise that we need technology to help us adapt to the quick changes that rapid international travel bring us. Why should running be similar?

Yet, more people are running now then ever before. Thanks to that invention the shoe.

I'd say fewer people are running now than ever before thanks to the invention of the couch, tv, and Big Mac.

Go to the local mall. Imagine a sabre tooth tiger being released. How many people could run for safety in time? Do you think runners would help any of them?

 

[dealmaster00]

Originally posted by: Megatomic
I don't think I've ever seen a pair of Asics for $20. I wish I could find my Mizunos for that little.

Black Friday sale a few years back. There's a reason why I picked my username.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Deeko
So what you're basically saying is that people adapted to certain situations, and where their genetics failed, modern science prevailed and allowed them to live beyond their means.

By arguing with me, you actually proved my point. Solid.

You called this post absurd:

"Educate yourself a bit: humans have been running barefoot for millions of years during which evolution has perfected the foot for just that purpose. That's just a touch longer than the Nike has had to perfect the shoe."

Please tell me exactly what kinds of extreme stresses we are putting on our feet that require stabilifoam, nike air, and a 2 inch thick block of foam because our feet haven't adapted to them yet.

People have been running for hundreds of thousands of years. Only very recently have we invented planes and gotten ourselves sick. It's no surprise that we need technology to help us adapt to the quick changes that rapid international travel bring us. Why should running be similar?

Yet, more people are running now then ever before. Thanks to that invention the shoe.

I'd say fewer people are running now than ever before thanks to the invention of the couch, tv, and Big Mac.

Go to the local mall. Imagine a sabre tooth tiger being released. How many people could run for safety in time? Do you think runners would help any of them?

Terrible analogy. And if we even tried to use it, back in the day, people that couldn't run more than likely were eaten by that Sabre Tooth Tiger and only the folks that could run survived. We don't live in those times anymore, bad genetics are allowed to survive.

The increase in the number of running races, triathlons, increase in enrollment limits to existing races would indicate an increase in the popularity of running.

Sure there are more fat people but more people are also running that wouldn't be able to run without running shoes.

Quick search found that marathon participation has doubled in the last decade - Marathons have become so popular that what once seemed masochistic now seems almost normal. Almost.

Half-marathons' popularity continues to grow

A personal example for me is the BAA Half-Marathon that started in 2001. The race started with a limit of 3,000 runners and has increased to 5,000. You used to be able to register months after the registration opened, now the race is filled-up within 24 hours. The BAA also added a 5k race starting this year.