Do you believe in American exceptionalism?

Blanky

Platinum Member
Oct 18, 2014
2,457
12
46
Yes I do. I just don't believe in it as much as some people appear to.

Certainly the US is more qualitatively different from other western nations than most in the category. It is behind many in that group in many measures too.

But at the end of the day there is only one 'Merica. Americans know it and so does everyone else. It remains broadly the best country to live in for me. If you're poor that likely isn't the case though.
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
America is exceptional in believing it's exceptional.

It's infrastructure is shit - internet, bridges, electrical, rails. It operates inefficiently, due to money being wasted at all times (giving money to those who don't need it). It has crap political leadership, because it bends to the needs and wants of those who have money.

But, worst of all; the common citizen usually blindly follows liars and goes after/blames whomever or whatever the liars say.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,636
3,510
136
America is exceptional in believing it's exceptional.

It's infrastructure is shit - internet, bridges, electrical, rails. It operates inefficiently, due to money being wasted at all times (giving money to those who don't need it). It has crap political leadership, because it bends to the needs and wants of those who have money.

But, worst of all; the common citizen usually blindly follows liars and goes after/blames whomever or whatever the liars say.

So...pretty much like every country in history.

America is exceptional in that it has been a stabilizing force in the world since WW2. And has been able to outlast the other stabilizing force (USSR). The difference between the US and any other first world country are miniscule when compared with the differences between first world and third world countries. Drama queens who harp on how crappy they think the US is need to get out more.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,558
15,444
136
So...pretty much like every country in history.

America is exceptional in that it has been a stabilizing force in the world since WW2. And has been able to outlast the other stabilizing force (USSR). The difference between the US and any other first world country are miniscule when compared with the differences between first world and third world countries. Drama queens who harp on how crappy they think the US is need to get out more.

So not believing in American exceptionalism now means you believe America is crappy?

Interesting...
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
It's exceptional but that doesn't mean it's #1 in every single possible aspect. If you're an aspiring billionaire willing to gamble you can change your world with an invention there's probably nowhere else better. If you prefer a low-risk/low reward situation in a social welfare state it sucks. There's something to be said about the value of Pax Americana as well although it's not like it wasn't used to our benefit at times also.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,772
2,280
126
here is how i feel about america and americans. premise: i'm european.

people in the US are better than in EU. and they can be worse as well, both come from the same difference between the two "worlds", the old world (EU) and the US.

in EU, you "are" the job you work at. At most, you are your degree, but even that is stretching it. If you are a plumber, then everyone thinks thats all you are. You are not allowed any dreams, aspirations, hobbies, or personality.

In the US, you can work at a starbucks, and you can introduce yourself to people as "i'm a artist" or "i'm gonna be a financial genius" and people will take your word for it.
Of course, then you have to come through; you gotta deliver. But no US person will say "you aren't shit because you don't work in any job related to what you want to be", while in EU that's standard for pretty much everyone.

In the US you are allowed to be completely crazy. You can go to someone and start talking about how aliens abducted Elvis and killed Kennedy, and people are cool with that; "he's weird" is about as bad as you are going to be judged.

In EU, if you don't follow a strict and expansive unwritten ruleset, you become untouchable. Having any complex conceptual opinion is considered dangerous and you will be warned that anyone who dares follow his dreams or ideology will "wind up in a bad way".

I've never been to a part in EU where 70% of the people invited bust out their own bag of kindbud, or a kegger. In the US, you can walk down the street, see a party, walk in, say "hi, i just walked in, can i get a brew" and people will just beer you. In EU, they would kick you out and yell furiously.

There is no casual sex in EU. Marriage looms like the spectre of death over every kiss. There's no working out, rocking out, copping out, dropping out. There's just study/work, keep your head down, and don't criticize your boss.
You are also practically not allowed to change jobs, ever.

We have stability. The US has freedom. Our downside is boredom, yours is madness.

(mind you, it's not legal freedom i'm talking about - it's social freedom)
 

Blanky

Platinum Member
Oct 18, 2014
2,457
12
46
In the US you are allowed to be completely crazy. You can go to someone and start talking about how aliens abducted Elvis and killed Kennedy, and people are cool with that; "he's weird" is about as bad as you are going to be judged.
You are completely right. I was talking to a guy from the netherlands the other day. Has been here 15 years. We were both saying one of the great things about America is how damn crazy it can be, and we weren't kidding. There's just nothing like the variance in people in any other Western nation I can think of. You can go all the way from uppity new yorker to backwoods Texan who truly believes the government is about to take him over--and by the way he's not a one-off, there are thousands like him.

Our downside is boredom, yours is madness.
Great quote. But some truth to it. Any adult in the US, for example, can enter a gun store and inside of 10 minutes with no questions asked leave with a semi-auto shotgun. There are many thousands upon thousands of people at this very moment thinking about and seriously planning for the end of the world as we know it, and they are armed and supplied such that they can go months if not years in this Mad Max type world. But you know what, many of those people would make great neighbors, too. That's why there's nothing like 'Merica.

America has probably the best weather of any country in the planet, certainly better than any other Western one that comes to mind; you've got crazy shit cold Alaska all the way down to perma-summer Florida Keys, and everything in between. And that's something that, short of a war, will never change.

I do think America is better on paper than in person. I think the US Constitution is spectacular. The bill of rights really kicks ass. It was before its time and, even today, it is ahead of many nations. The problem is it's still shat on. Some of the SCOTUS decisions are mind boggling.
 
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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
here is how i feel about america and americans. premise: i'm european.

people in the US are better than in EU. and they can be worse as well, both come from the same difference between the two "worlds", the old world (EU) and the US.

in EU, you "are" the job you work at. At most, you are your degree, but even that is stretching it. If you are a plumber, then everyone thinks thats all you are. You are not allowed any dreams, aspirations, hobbies, or personality.

In the US, you can work at a starbucks, and you can introduce yourself to people as "i'm a artist" or "i'm gonna be a financial genius" and people will take your word for it.
Of course, then you have to come through; you gotta deliver. But no US person will say "you aren't shit because you don't work in any job related to what you want to be", while in EU that's standard for pretty much everyone.

In the US you are allowed to be completely crazy. You can go to someone and start talking about how aliens abducted Elvis and killed Kennedy, and people are cool with that; "he's weird" is about as bad as you are going to be judged.

In EU, if you don't follow a strict and expansive unwritten ruleset, you become untouchable. Having any complex conceptual opinion is considered dangerous and you will be warned that anyone who dares follow his dreams or ideology will "wind up in a bad way".

I've never been to a part in EU where 70% of the people invited bust out their own bag of kindbud, or a kegger. In the US, you can walk down the street, see a party, walk in, say "hi, i just walked in, can i get a brew" and people will just beer you. In EU, they would kick you out and yell furiously.

There is no casual sex in EU. Marriage looms like the spectre of death over every kiss. There's no working out, rocking out, copping out, dropping out. There's just study/work, keep your head down, and don't criticize your boss.
You are also practically not allowed to change jobs, ever.

We have stability. The US has freedom. Our downside is boredom, yours is madness.

(mind you, it's not legal freedom i'm talking about - it's social freedom)
That's an interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing it.
 

mindmajick

Senior member
Apr 24, 2015
226
0
16
here is how i feel about america and americans. premise: i'm european.

people in the US are better than in EU. and they can be worse as well, both come from the same difference between the two "worlds", the old world (EU) and the US.

in EU, you "are" the job you work at. At most, you are your degree, but even that is stretching it. If you are a plumber, then everyone thinks thats all you are. You are not allowed any dreams, aspirations, hobbies, or personality.

In the US, you can work at a starbucks, and you can introduce yourself to people as "i'm a artist" or "i'm gonna be a financial genius" and people will take your word for it.
Of course, then you have to come through; you gotta deliver. But no US person will say "you aren't shit because you don't work in any job related to what you want to be", while in EU that's standard for pretty much everyone.

In the US you are allowed to be completely crazy. You can go to someone and start talking about how aliens abducted Elvis and killed Kennedy, and people are cool with that; "he's weird" is about as bad as you are going to be judged.

In EU, if you don't follow a strict and expansive unwritten ruleset, you become untouchable. Having any complex conceptual opinion is considered dangerous and you will be warned that anyone who dares follow his dreams or ideology will "wind up in a bad way".

I've never been to a part in EU where 70% of the people invited bust out their own bag of kindbud, or a kegger. In the US, you can walk down the street, see a party, walk in, say "hi, i just walked in, can i get a brew" and people will just beer you. In EU, they would kick you out and yell furiously.

There is no casual sex in EU. Marriage looms like the spectre of death over every kiss. There's no working out, rocking out, copping out, dropping out. There's just study/work, keep your head down, and don't criticize your boss.
You are also practically not allowed to change jobs, ever.

We have stability. The US has freedom. Our downside is boredom, yours is madness.

(mind you, it's not legal freedom i'm talking about - it's social freedom)
This is exactly the type of response i was hoping for.

An outsiders viewpoint. I really appreciate you sharing this perspective.
Hopefully we'll get some more outside perspective as well.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,232
5,807
126
Just a fancy word for Nationalism, IMO. It was far more applicable in the early days of the US, for it really was going into uncharted waters Socially and Politically speaking. At least compared to their peers at the time.

On the one hand there's nothing wrong with it in principle. However, it does have the down side of inducing a myopic worldview. That can be and has been problematic, both for the US and other nations.
 

Humpy

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2011
4,463
596
126
Sure, the USA is inherently better than other countries. Unfortunately its people are mostly too stupid and lazy to benefit from the advantage.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
There were a lot of "exceptional" civilizations in history, to the point that they aren't exceptions but the rule.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,297
6,355
126
Do you believe in American exceptionalism? Of course I do. I am an American through and through and there is nobody more exceptional than me. Everywhere I look I see only other people just like me. I learned I was exceptional from our founding fathers who told me of my inalienable rights. I just wait for the rest of the world to catch up and realize they are Americans too.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,019
8,056
136
I believe our ideals are exceptional, if we follow them.
I also think we've failed to live up to our own expectations.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,311
357
126
Exceptional under the Gold Standard.

-After the industrialization post-Civil War, became the strongest economy in the world in 1871, surpassing the British Empire with manufacturing and voluntary trade of the free market, while the British gained their wealth by colonizing a quarter of the globe through violence.

-We had 100 years of price deflation until 1914, where grandparents used to tell their kids how much more money was worth as the economy became more productive, while wages rose at the same time.

-Fought the largest naval battles in world history against the Imperial Japanese Navy. By 1943 the United States naval shipyards were producing more tonnage of warships in 1 month than the Empire of Japan built the entire period between 1933-1945.

-Mobilized the huge number of private engineering subcontractors we had in the 1960s, hired over 400,000 engineers to built the Saturn V, a 363 foot tall, 3,100 ton rocket that generated more power than the entire power grid of the United Kingdom. Still the only country in the history of the earth to send men to the moon, and possibly the only country that ever will. This massive project was only 5% of the entire government budget in the 1960s. NASA in the early 2000s told George Bush they couldn't build a comparable heavy lift rocket in the Constellation program even with "unlimited funding" today.

-Became the world reserve currency because the United States was producing all of the world's durable goods and accumulated more than 90% of the world's gold through manufacturing (a peak of 28,000 tons).
 
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Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
We were. Now, not so much. Hopefully, it will not be too late because we are becoming more like the declining Rome Empire.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,232
5,807
126
Exceptional under the Gold Standard.

-After the industrialization post-Civil War, became the strongest economy in the world in 1871, surpassing the British Empire with manufacturing and voluntary trade of the free market, while the British gained their wealth by colonizing a quarter of the globe through violence.

-We had 100 years of price deflation until 1914, where grandparents used to tell their kids how much more money was worth as the economy became more productive, while wages rose at the same time.

-Fought the largest naval battles in world history against the Imperial Japanese Navy. By 1943 the United States naval shipyards were producing more tonnage of warships in 1 month than the Empire of Japan built the entire period between 1933-1945.

-Mobilized the huge number of private engineering subcontractors we had in the 1960s, hired over 400,000 engineers to built the Saturn V, a 363 foot tall, 3,100 ton rocket that generated more power than the entire power grid of the United Kingdom. Still the only country in the history of the earth to send men to the moon, and possibly the only country that ever will. This massive project was only 5% of the entire government budget in the 1960s. NASA in the early 2000s told George Bush they couldn't build a comparable heavy lift rocket in the Constellation program even with "unlimited funding" today.

-Became the world reserve currency because the United States was producing all of the world's durable goods and accumulated more than 90% of the world's gold through manufacturing (a peak of 28,000 tons).

Uhh, no.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,311
357
126

You disagree with every point I made? So the Battle of Leyte Gulf was not the largest naval battle in world history? Please enlighten me about your knowledge of Greek naval history and why it's battles were larger.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,232
5,807
126
You disagree with every point I made? So the Battle of Leyte Gulf was not the largest naval battle in world history? Please enlighten me about your knowledge of Greek naval history and why it's battles were larger.

My objection is that somehow the Gold Standard had anything to do with it.
 
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