do you believe in the afterlife?

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SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
If there is an afterlife it is irrelevant. When you die, your brain along with all of your memories rots. If some part of you goes somewhere after you die, it won't remember this experience, making any life after this irrelevant.

The goal of life seems only to be to seek. Eventually, and probably much sooner than any of us think, we will defeat death with technology. As we speak we are unlocking the secrets of the brain and mind. We are also beginning to fabricate machines on the smallest scales. These two technologies will fuel and accelerate the quest to create and perfect intelligence and will result in people (human intelligence) living forever.

Yes, sort of like copying the brain onto a hard drive, cloning your body, and installing the same brain into the new body. Eventually the nuclear apocalypse would nullify this though.

Very similar, yes. What is required are non-destructive brain scanning techniques, some type of massively parallel neural net processing environment and storage to house the mind, and a sensory interface to the outside world. Since perception IS reality, the robotic body can come later, but will probably precede the mind stuff anyway. At any rate, both mind and body will be upgradeable. How about direct mind access to everyone? How about mind-cloning and networking? How about sending yourself to mars in a body made to take the abuses of space flight, and returning to network your findings with your Earth mind? How about robotic bodies capable of extracting everything they need to operate from their surroundings, regardless of the surroundings? Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Carbon seem to be ubiquitous.

I also envision complete miniaturization of the entire system, so to me the future is going to be trillions of self-encapsulated networked AIs which look nothing like us, but which we will think of as human, because they will be us.

50 to 100 years tops.

Aside from sheer distance, this is the main reason why I believe we have never been visited by aliens. Any alien civilization capable to intra or inter galactic travel would have long before found ways to control their own evolutionary cycle, and would have manufactured their own bodies and minds. We will simply never be visited by biological creatures, or even intelligences we can perceive. Alien visitors are highly likely to be very small, and capable of being impossible to detect.
 

ruu

Senior member
Oct 24, 2008
464
1
0
I underwent general anaesthesia once, for a surgery. I had no memories or sensory input from when I was under. I could have died during the procedure and not known the difference.

So no, I don't think there's an afterlife.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
Very similar, yes. What is required are non-destructive brain scanning techniques, some type of massively parallel neural net processing environment and storage to house the mind, and a sensory interface to the outside world. Since perception IS reality, the robotic body can come later, but will probably precede the mind stuff anyway. At any rate, both mind and body will be upgradeable. How about direct mind access to everyone? How about mind-cloning and networking? How about sending yourself to mars in a body made to take the abuses of space flight, and returning to network your findings with your Earth mind? How about robotic bodies capable of extracting everything they need to operate from their surroundings, regardless of the surroundings? Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Carbon seem to be ubiquitous.

I also envision complete miniaturization of the entire system, so to me the future is going to be trillions of self-encapsulated networked AIs which look nothing like us, but which we will think of as human, because they will be us.

50 to 100 years tops.

Aside from sheer distance, this is the main reason why I believe we have never been visited by aliens. Any alien civilization capable to intra or inter galactic travel would have long before found ways to control their own evolutionary cycle, and would have manufactured their own bodies and minds. We will simply never be visited by biological creatures, or even intelligences we can perceive. Alien visitors are highly likely to be very small, and capable of being impossible to detect.
I'd give it more like 250 years before this technology is usable. Just creating something with the capabilities of a mouse brain will take time. Being able to "read" information from a brain and keep it in such a way that it matches the original consciousness will also be difficult. Small changes to a living brain can significantly alter the personality of the consciousness that brain holds.

There will also be resistance to it. Some people will call it "playing God." I think many others romanticize death as some wonderful "gift" that we get to deal with. Resistance means politicians can get involved, which can also affect funding for research, or even the legality of such research.

Being visited by organic aliens - possible. Likely? No. Other aliens might not have ever investigated the means of existing artificially. Perhaps their planet developed without heavier elements (much heavier than iron, that is), or was missing some others entirely. Different bodies within our own solar system have different element distributions. Go to Jupiter's moon, Io. Want some sulfur? It's literally everywhere. Not on Earth. You have to go looking for it if you want substantial quantities.
Generational ships could be used, as could stasis ships.
It's also possible that some alien life forms would be more robust than us, and would be longer-lived, and able to survive harsher conditions, such as high accelerations, thus allowing for faster ships to be used.

 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,921
14
81
Originally posted by: irishScott
I believe in it yes. Key word believe. I don't claim to know anything about its nature and I don't live my life around it. That said, the concept of heaven and hell (generally speaking) makes sense, assuming there is an afterlife.

Desirable != Makes Sense.
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
21,940
838
126
I have a theory on afterlife but it would take me hours to type it up on here so I will just say "yes" and also say that we are all a form of some sort of "energy" and leave it at that.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
I believe in it yes. Key word believe. I don't claim to know anything about its nature and I don't live my life around it. That said, the concept of heaven and hell (generally speaking) makes sense, assuming there is an afterlife.

Desirable != Makes Sense.

Well think about it. Assuming we maintain our consciousness in the afterlife, would you associate with Hitler? If any kind of human segregation exists, the evil bastards will effectively be stuck with each other. I'd call that hell. Similar situations for heaven and such.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,501
0
0
Originally posted by: Old Hippie
I had one of those "died and brought back" to life scenarios.

It was just like what you read. I floated above the situation, watched as people drug my body around, saw and followed the bright light, saw my Grandmother (who died 10 years previously) who was waving me in saying "Come on in Rick. Everybody's here". I could see every line in her face, the way she applied her make-up, and I smelled her lilac perfume. Looking past her, I could see other relatives who had passed.

I remember hearing the rescue guys say "Rick, we're going to try and bring you back to life now" and I remember thinking, "Man it's nice here, I don't want to go back."

I finally told this story to my Mom and Dad when my brother died @ 6 yrs. ago. It really gave them peace believing that they would see him again.

So ya, I'm thinking I believe it.


I have another story about believing you're going to die and having your life pass before your eyes, but you didn't ask about that scenario. :laugh:


Interesting

 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,501
0
0
Originally posted by: D1gger
I believe that after life there is death.

I came very close to dying a number of years ago and had no experience of floating, hearing voices, seeing relatives, seeing strangers, or even seeing devils to greet me into the afterlife.

It was just black nothingness until they brought me back to consciousness; when the nurses and doctors congratulated each other and I heard the ER doctor proclaim, "Good work team, I thought we lost that one".

I didn't believe in the afterlife before that experience, and I don't believe in it now.

Wait, you were aware of the black nothingness? Because if you were dead and there were no afterlife, you should have just woken straight up like nothing had happened.

You shouldn't have been able to say that there is a "black nothingness" because to make that observation you must be conscious
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,921
14
81
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
I believe in it yes. Key word believe. I don't claim to know anything about its nature and I don't live my life around it. That said, the concept of heaven and hell (generally speaking) makes sense, assuming there is an afterlife.

Desirable != Makes Sense.

Well think about it. Assuming we maintain our consciousness in the afterlife, would you associate with Hitler? If any kind of human segregation exists, the evil bastards will effectively be stuck with each other. I'd call that hell. Similar situations for heaven and such.

1. But why believe? Because it'd be nice?
2. Just because nice people don't generally get along with evil people is no reason to posit a hell any more than to assert that the earth has broken down into two nations, one of evil people and one of nice people...
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
Originally posted by: Jeff7

I'd give it more like 250 years before this technology is usable. Just creating something with the capabilities of a mouse brain will take time. Being able to "read" information from a brain and keep it in such a way that it matches the original consciousness will also be difficult. Small changes to a living brain can significantly alter the personality of the consciousness that brain holds.

There will also be resistance to it. Some people will call it "playing God." I think many others romanticize death as some wonderful "gift" that we get to deal with. Resistance means politicians can get involved, which can also affect funding for research, or even the legality of such research.

Being visited by organic aliens - possible. Likely? No. Other aliens might not have ever investigated the means of existing artificially. Perhaps their planet developed without heavier elements (much heavier than iron, that is), or was missing some others entirely. Different bodies within our own solar system have different element distributions. Go to Jupiter's moon, Io. Want some sulfur? It's literally everywhere. Not on Earth. You have to go looking for it if you want substantial quantities.
Generational ships could be used, as could stasis ships.
It's also possible that some alien life forms would be more robust than us, and would be longer-lived, and able to survive harsher conditions, such as high accelerations, thus allowing for faster ships to be used.

For your time estimate, please refer to something known as the Law of Accelerating Returns (kind of like Moore's Law).

The technology will be perfected before it is widely implemented. It will also occur in degrees, starting with cybernetics (which has been occurring since the first amputee put on a peg leg, Arrgh!). We already have systems more capable than our own biology, implanting them directly is just the next phase. Implantable artificial systems for all of our sensory organs are well on their way in development. Augmented intelligence via implant will follow. By that time, complete artificial bodies and minds will be near and not so far fetched sounding. Resistance will be negligible compared to demand.

Technology is a logical component of intelligence evolution. Nothing is going to evolve intelligence where technology does not follow next. Apes have tech! AI is a logical step in technology. The alien race you speak of will simply never exist. Neither will one with longer life span or hardier bodies. These things are limited by the environment. Things evolve the best pieces they can. We die for a reason; it is required to evolve the species (until we take over the evolutionary cycle). A hardy body requires less intelligence. Hippos will never talk no matter how many millions of year you wait. Intelligence is not always the end result of evolution. Bacteria require zero. Every bacteria on Earth is just as evolved as we are, just evolved for different conditions.



 

upsciLLion

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2001
5,947
1
81
If there's an afterlife, I sure as hell don't want be stuck there you guys (excepting Platypus and DainBramaged).
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
For your time estimate, please refer to something known as the Law of Accelerating Returns (kind of like Moore's Law).

The technology will be perfected before it is widely implemented. It will also occur in degrees, starting with cybernetics (which has been occurring since the first amputee put on a peg leg, Arrgh!). We already have systems more capable than our own biology, implanting them directly is just the next phase. Implantable artificial systems for all of our sensory organs are well on their way in development. Augmented intelligence via implant will follow. By that time, complete artificial bodies and minds will be near and not so far fetched sounding. Resistance will be negligible compared to demand.

Technology is a logical component of intelligence evolution. Nothing is going to evolve intelligence where technology does not follow next. Apes have tech! AI is a logical step in technology. The alien race you speak of will simply never exist. Neither will one with longer life span or hardier bodies. These things are limited by the environment. Things evolve the best pieces they can. We die for a reason; it is required to evolve the species (until we take over the evolutionary cycle). A hardy body requires less intelligence. Hippos will never talk no matter how many millions of year you wait. Intelligence is not always the end result of evolution. Bacteria require zero. Every bacteria on Earth is just as evolved as we are, just evolved for different conditions.
Yes, I'm aware of Moore's Law.
Having something capable of sustaining a human brain, and allowing it to process information in realtime at a rate comparable to an organic brain, will require an exceptionally powerful computer. It will also need to be compact to be feasible. Now you're talking about issues on the subatomic scale. That's where room-temp quantum computing technology will be necessary. We also need to figure out a method of data storage. The brain stores data in a lossy compression format. If you tried lossless information storage, you'd fill up every hard drive on Earth in a matter of hours, trying to retain everything a brain perceives. It discards a LOT of the information it receives and generates. The question is, how does it "know" what information is important and what is not? Greet Bob in the morning, and you'll remember that you saw him, but not what color his tie was. How is information priority assigned?

Scanning information out of a brain is another matter entirely. We'd need to figure out how the information is really encoded, and how it can be "read" and decoded. There's no port to plug in to. Each neuron acts as a data storage device. How do I convince neuron #1103203 to tell me everything it knows?

AI is a next logical step - for us. What I'm saying is that the elements necessary for the construction of sophisticated technology capable of creating advanced AI computers might not be available everywhere in the Universe. And aliens might simply get impatient. Heck, there's an idea here called "Project Longshot," a way of getting a spaceship to Alpha Centauri in as little as 100 years travel time. It would be immensely expensive, but would use existing technology. If humans could be placed into some kind of stasis and kept safe from the acceleration forces, the Alpha Centauri system could potentially have organic "aliens" visiting it in the very near future.

Yes, AI would be easier. But I don't see it as necessary.

 

sourceninja

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2005
8,805
65
91
I truely wish there was an afterlife. the thought that when I die there is nothing is very scary. It is so terrifying that I can not even dwell on dying for more then a minute or two. BUT I have no evidence that it does exist and the simplest answer is that it does not. So I'm going with that.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,613
3,459
136
Originally posted by: sourceninja
I truely wish there was an afterlife. the thought that when I die there is nothing is very scary. It is so terrifying that I can not even dwell on dying for more then a minute or two. BUT I have no evidence that it does exist and the simplest answer is that it does not. So I'm going with that.

But you won't know. It's not like you'll be AWARE of floating in black nothingness for eternity. That would really suck.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
I believe in it yes. Key word believe. I don't claim to know anything about its nature and I don't live my life around it. That said, the concept of heaven and hell (generally speaking) makes sense, assuming there is an afterlife.

Desirable != Makes Sense.

Well think about it. Assuming we maintain our consciousness in the afterlife, would you associate with Hitler? If any kind of human segregation exists, the evil bastards will effectively be stuck with each other. I'd call that hell. Similar situations for heaven and such.

1. But why believe? Because it'd be nice?
2. Just because nice people don't generally get along with evil people is no reason to posit a hell any more than to assert that the earth has broken down into two nations, one of evil people and one of nice people...

1. Why not believe? Because we don't have any scientifically validated evidence yet? Anything's possible, and while I love logic (hell I'm an Engineering major) it can't tell us everything by a long shot. Nevermind the fact that science is continually growing, and history has proven that many apparently laughable concepts are in fact quite concrete when enough information is obtained. Go back in time and tell an Ancient Greek that you can make lightening. Chances are you'd become the village idiot until you proved otherwise.

In the case of the afterlife, there are thousands if not millions of people who report said "out of body/life before eyes/near death experiences". That's enough evidence to justify my beliefs. Like I said, I believe and speculate. I don't claim to know or be able to prove shit.

2. That's about the most inaccurate analogy you could possible make. You're comparing Earth to the afterlife. Here many people don't have a choice of, say, moving to the Western world. Either due to literal inability or politics. With freedom of movement social dynamics would be far different. This is of course assuming that there's freedom of movement in the afterlife. Like I said, it's all speculation.

And yes, it is nice to believe in an afterlife. I won't deny it. Doesn't mean that it's the primary reason for my belief. Likewise I'm Deist, and believe in a God as evidenced by the presence of order in the Universe. Science has yet to explain how such order can come from nothing.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,921
14
81
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
I believe in it yes. Key word believe. I don't claim to know anything about its nature and I don't live my life around it. That said, the concept of heaven and hell (generally speaking) makes sense, assuming there is an afterlife.

Desirable != Makes Sense.

Well think about it. Assuming we maintain our consciousness in the afterlife, would you associate with Hitler? If any kind of human segregation exists, the evil bastards will effectively be stuck with each other. I'd call that hell. Similar situations for heaven and such.

1. But why believe? Because it'd be nice?
2. Just because nice people don't generally get along with evil people is no reason to posit a hell any more than to assert that the earth has broken down into two nations, one of evil people and one of nice people...

1. Why not believe? Because we don't have any scientifically validated evidence yet? Anything's possible, and while I love logic (hell I'm an Engineering major) it can't tell us everything by a long shot. Nevermind the fact that science is continually growing, and history has proven that many apparently laughable concepts are in fact quite concrete when enough information is obtained. Go back in time and tell an Ancient Greek that you can make lightening. Chances are you'd become the village idiot until you proved otherwise.

In the case of the afterlife, there are thousands if not millions of people who report said "out of body/life before eyes/near death experiences". That's enough evidence to justify my beliefs. Like I said, I believe and speculate. I don't claim to know or be able to prove shit.

2. That's about the most inaccurate analogy you could possible make. You're comparing Earth to the afterlife. Here many people don't have a choice of, say, moving to the Western world. Either due to literal inability or politics. With freedom of movement social dynamics would be far different. This is of course assuming that there's freedom of movement in the afterlife. Like I said, it's all speculation.

And yes, it is nice to believe in an afterlife. I won't deny it. Doesn't mean that it's the primary reason for my belief. Likewise I'm Deist, and believe in a God as evidenced by the presence of order in the Universe. Science has yet to explain how such order can come from nothing.

Wow, that's some really bad logic for both points there. I don't have the time or energy to debunk this point by point, but I really suggest you take a long hard look at what you believe. Every point you raised has a scientific explanation, or is logically meaningless. I will answer the "order" of the universe bit, simply by pointing out that the universe appears ordered because we have evolved within it.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
I believe in it yes. Key word believe. I don't claim to know anything about its nature and I don't live my life around it. That said, the concept of heaven and hell (generally speaking) makes sense, assuming there is an afterlife.

Desirable != Makes Sense.

Well think about it. Assuming we maintain our consciousness in the afterlife, would you associate with Hitler? If any kind of human segregation exists, the evil bastards will effectively be stuck with each other. I'd call that hell. Similar situations for heaven and such.

1. But why believe? Because it'd be nice?
2. Just because nice people don't generally get along with evil people is no reason to posit a hell any more than to assert that the earth has broken down into two nations, one of evil people and one of nice people...

1. Why not believe? Because we don't have any scientifically validated evidence yet? Anything's possible, and while I love logic (hell I'm an Engineering major) it can't tell us everything by a long shot. Nevermind the fact that science is continually growing, and history has proven that many apparently laughable concepts are in fact quite concrete when enough information is obtained. Go back in time and tell an Ancient Greek that you can make lightening. Chances are you'd become the village idiot until you proved otherwise.

In the case of the afterlife, there are thousands if not millions of people who report said "out of body/life before eyes/near death experiences". That's enough evidence to justify my beliefs. Like I said, I believe and speculate. I don't claim to know or be able to prove shit.

2. That's about the most inaccurate analogy you could possible make. You're comparing Earth to the afterlife. Here many people don't have a choice of, say, moving to the Western world. Either due to literal inability or politics. With freedom of movement social dynamics would be far different. This is of course assuming that there's freedom of movement in the afterlife. Like I said, it's all speculation.

And yes, it is nice to believe in an afterlife. I won't deny it. Doesn't mean that it's the primary reason for my belief. Likewise I'm Deist, and believe in a God as evidenced by the presence of order in the Universe. Science has yet to explain how such order can come from nothing.

Wow, that's some really bad logic for both points there. I don't have the time or energy to debunk this point by point, but I really suggest you take a long hard look at what you believe. Every point you raised has a scientific explanation, or is logically meaningless. I will answer the "order" of the universe bit, simply by pointing out that the universe appears ordered because we have evolved within it.

That's my point. It's not pure logic/science and it's not meant to be. It's belief with pseudo-logical/scientific backing. I choose to live with my feelings and trust my intuition, as opposed to proving everything with reason before I state it. I'm not submitting a scientific paper or stating facts here.

As for the order of the universe bit, what you just said is irrelevant. The very fact that we can see it as ordered proves that it is ordered, if only on a high level (I'm not delving into quantum physics here). The fact that it might appear chaotic from a different frame of reference means nothing.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,921
14
81
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: irishScott
I believe in it yes. Key word believe. I don't claim to know anything about its nature and I don't live my life around it. That said, the concept of heaven and hell (generally speaking) makes sense, assuming there is an afterlife.

Desirable != Makes Sense.

Well think about it. Assuming we maintain our consciousness in the afterlife, would you associate with Hitler? If any kind of human segregation exists, the evil bastards will effectively be stuck with each other. I'd call that hell. Similar situations for heaven and such.

1. But why believe? Because it'd be nice?
2. Just because nice people don't generally get along with evil people is no reason to posit a hell any more than to assert that the earth has broken down into two nations, one of evil people and one of nice people...

1. Why not believe? Because we don't have any scientifically validated evidence yet? Anything's possible, and while I love logic (hell I'm an Engineering major) it can't tell us everything by a long shot. Nevermind the fact that science is continually growing, and history has proven that many apparently laughable concepts are in fact quite concrete when enough information is obtained. Go back in time and tell an Ancient Greek that you can make lightening. Chances are you'd become the village idiot until you proved otherwise.

In the case of the afterlife, there are thousands if not millions of people who report said "out of body/life before eyes/near death experiences". That's enough evidence to justify my beliefs. Like I said, I believe and speculate. I don't claim to know or be able to prove shit.

2. That's about the most inaccurate analogy you could possible make. You're comparing Earth to the afterlife. Here many people don't have a choice of, say, moving to the Western world. Either due to literal inability or politics. With freedom of movement social dynamics would be far different. This is of course assuming that there's freedom of movement in the afterlife. Like I said, it's all speculation.

And yes, it is nice to believe in an afterlife. I won't deny it. Doesn't mean that it's the primary reason for my belief. Likewise I'm Deist, and believe in a God as evidenced by the presence of order in the Universe. Science has yet to explain how such order can come from nothing.

Wow, that's some really bad logic for both points there. I don't have the time or energy to debunk this point by point, but I really suggest you take a long hard look at what you believe. Every point you raised has a scientific explanation, or is logically meaningless. I will answer the "order" of the universe bit, simply by pointing out that the universe appears ordered because we have evolved within it.

That's my point. It's not pure logic/science and it's not meant to be. It's belief with pseudo-logical/scientific backing. I choose to live with my feelings and trust my intuition, as opposed to proving everything with reason before I state it. I'm not submitting a scientific paper or stating facts here.

As for the order of the universe bit, what you just said is irrelevant. The very fact that we can see it as ordered proves that it is ordered, if only on a high level (I'm not delving into quantum physics here). The fact that it might appear chaotic from a different frame of reference means nothing.

Quantum physics has nothing to do with my point. All I am saying is: The universe appears ordered because we only know the universe. Without a dataset larger than one, how are we to know if the universe is orderly or not? For all we know, our universe could be right on the cusp of being so disorderly life wouldn't exist. Saying that the universe appears to be ordered makes NO case for a creator -- even if the universe is orderly.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: JasonSix78
Originally posted by: jonks
Let's check in with the experts on all things metaphysical:

http://xkcd.com/373/

Nope, guess not.

:laugh: Afterlife != Supernatural Powers.

yeah, but that's the most analogous one I could find, and I'm pretty sure the chart is just as accurate if you dropped "powers"
 
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