Do you believe that Islam and its followers are a threat to the world?

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Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Not even a page in, and here comes the religious/holy book bashers.

I'm out.

No holy book basher here, many Christians discount the Quran even though it's derived from the Old Testament.

I've found that the vast majority of Christians and Muslims are good hearted people who take comfort from exercising their religion. There are extremist who bastardize their respective holy book and act accordingly to their bastardized beliefs.
 

slayernine

Senior member
Jul 23, 2007
895
0
71
slayernine.com
Nutters of any religious persuasion are a threat to the civilized world.

You know you can look at it more directly if you look at the proportion of followers to nutters. There are clearly a heck of a lot of followers of the Muslim faith who seem willing to commit blatant atrocities in the name of their faith.

It's kinda like the price/performance ratio applied to religion.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,570
7,631
136
I think... to answer this question, there should first be an examination.

We know the stories of horrible acts done by Muslim groups in positions of power. Be it terrorists like ISIS, or governments like Syria, Iran, or Saudi Arabia. They place human rights second to their interpretation of doctrine, which at minimum includes the enslavement of women and minorities. At worst it includes rape and genocide. Terrible things happening.

So, where are the good things?
Who are the good Muslims who hold positions of power?
What acts have they done in defense of human rights while standing opposed to someone's religious claim?

I do not think I know of anyone or any group in particular. This is a shame, and if there are examples of good people standing for human rights then I'd like to know who they are, what they have done to earn our respect. These folks who have done good deeds need to heralded as our kin, men and women we can stand with in free practice of their religion.

We need to find them and support them as an inspirational guide for troubled youth looking for answers. Instead of ISIS they should find good people in their place, taking up and honoring the name of Islam. Our efforts should empower these people where ever we find them and help turn the tide of public opinion that Islam = Terrorism.

Islam as a symbol has been corrupted by evil acts. A symbol's meaning is little more than public opinion, and so we can still turn that around. It begins with me voting no. For those good men and women who cannot speak here today, their publicity may be nonexistent, their reach may be small, but it would do them great harm if we all thought of them as nothing. My vote speaks on their behalf that not all hope is lost.
 

makken

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2004
1,476
0
71
chick on the right looks fat? I mean even considering the explosives under her shirt, she looks a bit fat.

Yeah, she does look a bit chubbier. The chick on the left has a much nicer rack as well!
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
Fanaticism of a religion is a threat - not religion itself.

And, right now, fanaticism of Islam is a threat to,.. Islam and the Arab world.

If you had what was going on in the ME, happening anywhere else (exactly like it, not one or two instances of a fanatic), then I would consider fanaticism of Islam a threat to the civilized world. And, even then, I would not believe Islam is the problem. Again, it is the fanatics of the religion, not the religion.
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
Only retards are the ones arguing that grouping all of Islam with Islamic extremists makes more sense than grouping Islamic extremists with all other extremists.

Except white terrorists, of course.

When a white terrorist does something: pppffftt! That ain't no terrorist! Just a crazy feller, is all!

When an islamic terrorist does something: they are all crazy!! They are coming to get us!! The borders are not secured! Send the militia!!!shift+1!!! Obama has a mooslim prayer curtain in the White House!!
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,674
7,170
136
Seems to me that the idea of equating western ideals (most notably the idea that we are free to practice any religion we want) to the idea that it is a direct threat to Islam is where the point of conflict arises.

I remember when during the cold war, the USSR and Communist China chose to specifically deride the "Free World" of its debauchery, of the uncontrolled rampant deviant sexual behavior being practiced there, of its penchant for being colonialist/expansionists AND its use of religion to do just that.

As an example, I remember how a polynesian native activist for independence from America described the methods that were used to "illegally take over the land from the indigenous peoples": "First, they bring in their religion to pacify the masses. Then they bring in their businesses to indebt, indenture and exploit the pacified masses, then they bring in their military to enforce their religion and the subjugation of the masses and then they bring in their politicians to legalize the whole process of their thievery."

Although I definitely do not agree that Islam is a threat to us, I can see where Islam can see the Western World as a threat to them given the history of colonialism that the west had previously implemented to "spread freedom and democracy throughout the world" (while making huge profits from the exploitation of the native peoples and natural resources, of course). *wink* *wink* *elbow jab*.

And let us not forget the Crusades of long ago (of which I personally believe it anachronistic to think so) and how those events are still clear in the minds of Islamists who wish to do battle with the west on those grounds.

So in a narrowly defined way, I can agree with Islam being a threat to "us" with the proviso that we are equally a threat to "them".

But what I can't agree with is the phrasing the OP used: "a threat to the civilized world". Is this a slanted way of insinuating that Islam is therefore "not civilized"?
 
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squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
2,230
5
46
I would argue it is not the religious extremists who are threat to the world. They are easy to see what they are. Hence have never had power on a grand scale. Are on the fringes of the society.

The bigger problem has always been the ones who use supposedly good concepts to further their own agenda, their lust for power and greed. Hence as I pointed out, it has been the non religious ones who have caused the greatest death and destruction in the last hundred years or so. In the name of social justice, equality, freedom, democracy, and what have you. The "sane" ones.

Thomas Merton, arguably the finest Catholic writer of the 20th century, wrote this in the 1950s. On the Sanity of Adolf Eichmann. I would urge every thinking person (and I know there are a few here) to read this

http://paxonbothhouses.blogspot.com/2013/07/thomas-merton-adolf-eichmann-sanity-and.html

Just a small excerpt:

----
The sanity of Eichmann is disturbing. We equate sanity with a sense of justice, with humaneness, with prudence, with the capacity to love and understand other people. We rely on the sane people of the world to preserve it from barbarism, madness, destruction. And now it begins to dawn on us that it is precisely the sane ones who are the most dangerous.

It is the sane ones, the well-adapted ones, who can without qualms and without nausea aim the missile, and press the buttons that will initiate the great festival of destruction that they, the sane ones, have prepared. What makes us so sure, after all, that the danger comes from a psychotic getting into a position to fire the first shot in a nuclear war? Psychotics will he suspect. The sane ones will keep them far from the button. No one suspects the sane, and the sane ones will have perfectly good reasons, logical, well-adjusted reasons, for firing the shot. They will he obeying sane orders that have come sanely down the chain of command. And because of their sanity they will have no qualms at all. When the missiles take off, then, it will be no mistake. We can no longer assume that because a man is "sane" he is therefore in his "right mind." The whole concept of sanity in a society where spiritual values have lost their meaning is itself meaningless. A man can be "sane" in the limited sense that he is not impeded by disordered emotions from acting in a cool, orderly tier, according to the needs and dictates of the social situation in which he finds himself. He can be perfectly "adjusted." God knows, perhaps such people can be perfectly adjusted even in hell itself.
-----

Thank you.
 

inf1nity

Golden Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,191
3
0
Just want to let you know that you don't know shit.

Thank you for interesting perspective on the issue. I consider it my good fortune that learned men like you took the time to bestow their knowledge upon me. I look forward to more gems of wisdom from you.

Thank you once again.
 

makken

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2004
1,476
0
71
Except white terrorists, of course.

When a white terrorist does something: pppffftt! That ain't no terrorist! Just a crazy feller, is all!

When an islamic terrorist does something: they are all crazy!! They are coming to get us!! The borders are not secured! Send the militia!!!shift+1!!! Obama has a mooslim prayer curtain in the White House!!

Confirmed! Obama is a Islamic extremist and plans to blow up the whitehouse!!!111q

ermahgerd why hasn't he been impeached yet?!?!?@

(Oh hai NSA)
 

squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
2,230
5
46
One of the most disturbing facts that came out in the Eichmann trial was that a psychiatrist examined him and pronounced him perfectly sane. I do not doubt it all, and that is precisely why I find it disturbing.

If all the Nazis had been psychotics, as some of their leaders probably were, their appalling cruelty would have been in some sense easier to understand. It is much worse to consider this calm, "well-balanced," unperturbed official conscientiously going about his desk work, his administrative job which happened to be the supervision of mass murder. He was thoughtful, orderly, unimaginative. He had a profound respect for system, for law and order. He was obedient, loyal, a faithful officer of a great state. He served his government very well.

He was not bothered much by guilt. I have not heard that he developed any psychosomatic illnesses. Apparently he slept well. He had a good appetite, or so it seems. True, when he visited Auschwitz, the Camp Commandant, Hoess, in a spirit of sly deviltry, tried to tease the big boss and scare him with some of the sight, Eichmann was disturbed, yes. He was disturbed. Even Himmler had been disturbed, and had gone weak at the knees. Perhaps, in the same way, the general manager of a big steel mill might be disturbed if an accident took place while he happened to be somewhere in the plant. But of course what happened at Auschwitz was not an accident: just the routine unpleasantness of the daily task. One must shoulder the burden of daily monotonous work for the Fatherland. Yes, one must suffer discomfort and even nausea from unpleasant sights and sounds. It all comes under the heading of duty, self-sacrifice, and obedience. Eichmann was devoted to duty. and proud of his job.

The sanity of Eichmann is disturbing. We equate sanity with a sense of justice, with humaneness, with prudence, with the capacity to love and understand other people. We rely on the sane people of the world to preserve it from barbarism, madness, destruction. And now it begins to dawn on us that it is precisely the sane ones who are the most dangerous.

It is the sane ones, the well-adapted ones, who can without qualms and without nausea aim the missile, and press the buttons that will initiate the great festival of destruction that they, the sane ones, have prepared What makes us so sure, after all, that the danger comes from a psychotic getting into a position to fire the first shot in a nuclear war? Psychotics will he suspect. The sane ones will keep them far from the button. No one suspects the sane, and the sane ones will have perfectly good reasons, logical, well-adjusted reasons, for firing the shot. They will he obeying sane orders that have come sanely down the chain of command. And because of their sanity they will have no qualms at all. When the missiles take off, then, it will be no mistake. We can no longer assume that because a man is "sane" he is therefore in his "right mind." The whole concept of sanity in a society where spiritual values have lost their meaning is itself meaningless. A man can be "sane" in the limited sense that he is not impeded by disordered emotions from acting in a cool, orderly tier, according to the needs and dictates of the social situation in which he finds himself. He can be perfectly "adjusted." God knows, perhaps such people can be perfectly adjusted even in hell itself.

And so I ask myself: what is the meaning of a concept of sanity that excludes love, considers it irrelevant, and destroys our capacity to love other human beings, to respond to their needs and their sufferings, to recognize them also as persons, to apprehend their pain as one's own? Evidently this is not necessary for "sanity" at all. It is a religious notion, a spiritual notion, a Christian notion What business have we to equate "sanity" with "Christianity"? None at all, obviously. The worst error is to imagine that a Christian must try to be "sane" like everybody else, that we belong in our kind of society. That we must be "realistic" about it. We must develop a sane Christianity: and there have been plenty of sane Christians in the past. Torture is nothing new, is it? We ought to be able to rationalize a little brainwashing, and genocide, and find a place for nuclear war, or at least for napalm bombs, in our moral theology. Certainly some of us are doing our best along those lines already. There are hopes! Even Christians can shake off their sentimental prejudices about charity, and become sane like Eichmann. They can even cling to a certain set of Christian formulas, and fit them into a Totalist Ideology. Let them talk about justice, charity, love, and the rest. These words have not stopped some sane men from acting very sanely and cleverly in the past....

No, Eichmann was sane. The generals and fighters on both sides, in World War II, the ones who carried out the total destruction of entire cities, these were the sane ones. Those who have invented and developed atomic bombs, thermonuclear bombs, missiles; who have planned the strategy of the next war; who have evaluated the various possibilities of using bacterial and chemical agents: these are not the crazy people, they are the sane people. The ones who coolly estimate how many millions of victims can he considered expendable in a nuclear war, I presume they do all right with the Rorschach ink blots too. On the other hand, you will probably find that the pacifists and the ban-the-bomb people are, quite seriously, just as we read in Time, a little crazy. I am beginning to realize that "sanity" is no longer a value or an end in itself. The "sanity" of modern man is about as useful to him as the huge bulk and muscles of the dinosaur. If he were a little less sane, a little more doubtful, a little more aware of his absurdities and contradictions, perhaps there might be a possibility of his survival. But if he is sane, too sane ... perhaps we must say that in a society like ours the worst insanity is to be totally without anxiety, totally "sane."
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
I believe that people who see everything in black and white stereotypes are the real threat to the civilized world.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
I should also add. The Nazis. Were they religious extremists? Or how about Pol Pot and his murderous regime?

It is easy to bash religions (esp Christianity and Islam) but the fact is that the biggest mass murderers of the last 100 years have not been religious extremists at all.

Nazi's were religious extremists in that Hitler knew quite well how to use religion to promulgate his less than spiritual message; belt buckles and some other articles used by the SS, NAZI soldiers and the Hitler Youth orgs. were emblazoned with the phrase "Gott Mit Uns" (G-d is With Us). A "religiously" inspired soldier is a dutiful and obedient soldier.

And so it is with radical Islam; thinking that they do these things for the glory of Allah makes the extremists that much more committed and dangerous.

The glaring difference of course is that for the most part the mass murders that took place were not in the name of a particular deity or religion.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
Except white terrorists, of course.

When a white terrorist does something: pppffftt! That ain't no terrorist! Just a crazy feller, is all!

When an islamic terrorist does something: they are all crazy!! They are coming to get us!! The borders are not secured! Send the militia!!!shift+1!!! Obama has a mooslim prayer curtain in the White House!!

you seem to be confused. you do know the difference between race and religion dont you?
 
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