Do you believe?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
I agree with MoonBeam.....ummmmmmm.... yeah I think so.

Kinda surprised to see all the atheists here.......bummer.
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
0
0


<< My idea of what an advanced society looks like is incorrect? >>


LOL! No - you are incorrect because you disagree with Elledan, who is the immutable and uncontested source of all truth. [/sarcasm]

Another integral part of this new "perfect society", after stamping out religion, is to get rid of the handicapped, the weak, the different, the inferior... isn't it?




<< which is why a society must get rid of them when it's time, or die. >>



Riiiiiiiiight. hasn't happened yet, doesn't look like its gonna happen anytime soon. And all dthe meantime you have to tolerate us "inferior and illogical" people breathing the same air as you...

Hey Elledan - my handicapped sister will be sitting quite happily in church this Sunday... picture that - must just bug the hell out of you, eh?




 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<<

<< You're incorrect in every view. >>

\
My idea of what an advanced society looks like is incorrect? Christ didn't come to provide a social economical judicial structure so we can have false hopes that keep us in line. I think Jesus was quite clear about that.
>>


You know, there's insufficient evidence to proof that this Jesus ever actually existed, and these miracles he was supposed to have commited most certainly didn't take place. There have been quite some eyewitnesses whose writings refute that these miracles ever happened, or that Jesus, provided that he even existed, was an important figure.



<< I think a relationship with God fosters "a way which involves a sense of responsiblity, individuality, logic and above all, curiosity." Don't try to make sweeping statements like "Religions offer none of those things, which is why a society must get rid of them when it's time, or die." >>

The Vatican is already enough evidence to disprove everything you said in this last sentence of yours.
Religions are rigid social structures, which hinder any form of progress and most certainly doesn't inspire to way of thinking, "a way which involves a sense of responsiblity, individuality, logic and above all, curiosity." , since a requirement to be part of a religion is to be willing to let blind faith guide you.
As history shows us, curiosity is not stimulated in religions, but suppressed, and those who offer new insights and findings are kept silent, or prosecuted.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<<

<< My idea of what an advanced society looks like is incorrect? >>


LOL! No - you are incorrect because you disagree with Elledan, who is the immutable and uncontested source of all truth. [/sarcasm]

Another integral part of this new "perfect society", after stamping out religion, is to get rid of the handicapped, the weak, the different, the inferior... isn't it?
>>


You're one of the finest examples of blind faith and ignorance. I've never expressed any of such wishes. I only wish to cure those who are handicapped in any way, help them. But only if they wish to be helped.




<<

<< which is why a society must get rid of them when it's time, or die. >>



Riiiiiiiiight. hasn't happened yet, doesn't look like its gonna happen anytime soon. And all dthe meantime you have to tolerate us "inferior and illogical" people breathing the same air as you...
>>

You can't see the signs of the disappearance of religion? Wow, you're pretty deep buried in the cozy depths of your blind faith, aren't you?



<< Hey Elledan - my handicapped sister will be sitting quite happily in church this Sunday... picture that - must just bug the hell out of you, eh? >>

Does she think that religion can help her? In that case I feel terribly sorry for her. Yet I don't see why it should 'bug the hell out of me' (was that a pun I saw? ).
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
Elledan- as many people as there are in the world so are there as many religions. Because religion is not the same for everyone...and cannot be defined as such, which you seem to have done.

Faith changes, because people change. But faith will always be a part of humanity. Society will never die because of faith, Society will die because of people who choose to put themselves and their sense of being above others.....That has historical precendence too.
 

lebe0024

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2000
1,101
0
76
No offense Optimus, but watch your mouth. There's no sense in flaming him.



<< You know, there's insufficient evidence to proof that this Jesus ever actually existed, and these miracles he was supposed to have commited most certainly didn't take place. There have been quite some eyewitnesses whose writings refute that these miracles ever happened, or that Jesus, provided that he even existed, was an important figure. >>



Are you prepared to give your argument for this? I'm not a smart man, but I think I can hold my own when it comes to a debate about gospel history. If you're willing, we can talk about this subject. If you need a place to start for your sources, you can start here.
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
0
0
Ooo! I touched a sore spot there Elledan, didn't I?

I guess you do remember me after all - I thought you might have forgotten. You haven't spoken to me since you were banned for your anti-relgion trolling. I was feeling left out.


Blind faith - LOL! To you any faith is blind. You confuse the very nature of faith with blindness.

Listen up:

Faith is believing in something without having empirical, physical evidence that proves its existance. One could argue that since we only percieve the universe and existance using the 5 senses we know of (and there could be any number of existances/planes/energies that we cannot sense) that we accept everything we know through faith... faith that evolution provided us with everything we need to percieve reality.

If reality is merely an infinite number of motionless existances that our conscious minds guide us through so that we percieve time and movement, then we are all kinda screwed in terms of understanding things, eh?

Blind faith, Elledan, is faith that is not explored, questioned, debated, and logically worked on.

You have decided that if one questions faith at all, if one actually thinks about things, then they will dismiss faith. You believe this because this is the path you followed. Your flaw is that you then believe that as you followed this path, you are right beyond doubt (so much that anyone who disagrees is an idiot, moron, illogical, inferior, etc).

Faith is required for religion. Faith can and should exist even under intense debate, scrutiny, and logical thought. To not question, think, debate, etc is to keep your faith blind. You believe faith cannot exist if it is not blind, therefore all faith = blind faith.

And so because you know that despite my scientific and logical interests (I believe in evolution, science, etc) I also have a faith, you feel you can dismiss me as inherently flawed.

I'll tell you something important now, Elledan. You consider my thinking wrong because I have faith - But here's the clincher: I know I might well be wrong. My entire view of existance is ever-changing, and ever open to the possibility that I do not know everything. Therefor I do not consider myslef superior to those who disagree with me. I do not declare myself absolutely right, nor do I declare other's views absolutely wrong. I can't believe that such arrogance works well with a truly open scientific mind.

You, on the other hand, seem to have declared the race to be over. You are right beyond doubt - all others... even society as a whole... are wrong. You cannot be wrong, your views are perfect.

As for the handicapped thing - you can cover all you like. Several of us were there for your infamous thread and comments and we remember them. We will always remember them.


<< Does she think that religion can help her? >>


Spiritually? Yes. Physically? No. She is happy with who she is. She is loved, loves, laughs, and lives life as fully as she can.



<< In that case I feel terribly sorry for her. >>


I and my family have no use for the pity of your superior intellect, Elledan - kindly let us wallow in our own fith, thanks.


<< Yet I don't see why it should 'bug the hell out of me >>


2 things you long to see removed from this world forever. And yet there they are - happy and loved by those around them.


I await your reply and I will respond to that as well. And the next, and the next. I'm not going anywhere Elledan.
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
0
0
lebe0024:


<< No offense Optimus, but watch your mouth. There's no sense in flaming him. >>


No offense, lebe0024, but you have no idea of our posting history here. Before he learned to tone it down he was quite open in expressing his opinions and our battles were numerous.

BTW, that wasn't a flame... heh heh - if I flamed Elledan you would know it.

(goes back and re-reads his first post)

No swearing at him, no insults sent his way... thats no flame.

(Do a search on Red Dawn's posts to see what a real OT flame looks like!)
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< No offense Optimus, but watch your mouth. There's no sense in flaming him.



<< You know, there's insufficient evidence to proof that this Jesus ever actually existed, and these miracles he was supposed to have commited most certainly didn't take place. There have been quite some eyewitnesses whose writings refute that these miracles ever happened, or that Jesus, provided that he even existed, was an important figure. >>



Are you prepared to give your argument for this? I'm not a smart man, but I think I can hold my own when it comes to a debate about gospel history. If you're willing, we can talk about this subject. If you need a place to start for your sources, you can start here.
>>


I found out about this when I first read this document. I've done some research and it appears that the arguments in this document are valid.


Optimus - you're thoroughly confused. Although your definition of blind faith is correct, you're still eluding yourself. You say that you're exploring your surroundings, but in fact you're shielding yourself from new experiences by this blind faith of yours.
There have been no observations, no mathematical evidence, nothing which would validate any religion ever created, nor has any religion ever been based on a scientifically acceptable theory.

The gods of any religion have nothing to do with the existance or non-existance of any supernatural force or being, since religions are disposable items.


Now if you'll excuse me, I've some experiments which require my attention.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Some please prove the existance or non existance of God. Thats all I want. If you can't and you belive in either premise you are either living by faith or a hypocrite. You pick one
 

GuySmiley

Member
Sep 20, 2001
121
0
0
heh heh, man i love it when Optimus gets rolling
...going back a few steps in the argument though, i just wanted to point out where the end of the rainbow lies with the so called "advancement" of society.
In France, we just had a guy with Downs syndrome suing a hospital for his "Right Not To Have Been Born" because he wasnt screened for his disease and culled before birth. Unsuprisingly, he won, and now hospitals and medical organizations everywhere are on the defensive, almost being coerced into genetic cleansing. This ruling has been flatly condemned by every handicapped and religious group in the world, who apparently oppose this sort of progress.
I ask you Elledan, is this the kind of forwards thinking you were referring to? and more importantly...how far will it go?
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
Hayabusarider- hehe, not exactly the words I would have chosen but well done!


GuySmiley- WoW! that is a disturbing story, do you have a link?

 

GuySmiley

Member
Sep 20, 2001
121
0
0
and another thing Elledan...you accuse Optimus of being closed minded and not considering wider possibilities...but this seems to be the very path you've chosen for yourself. Do you even consider it a possibility that God exists? can you prove that he doesn't? this appears to me to be blind faith in atheism...
on a different note, you say that logic is the foundation that everything is built on, but what is logic built on? can you prove logic using logic?
 

GuySmiley

Member
Sep 20, 2001
121
0
0
yeah, here is a link to the French Court ruling.
and here is another one which gives a case for old ideas, based on merit, not their "newness" (highly recommend this one, good reading)
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
0
0
Again, its not whether God exists... its whether he is sentient.

"ex nihil, nihil fit" - Nothing Comes From Nothing.

Something has to have always existed, something outside of time, something infinite and absolute. This absolute, eternal something is the causeless causer of all existance. This causeless, eternal something is responsible for absolutes - math, truth, existance.

This something is responsible for order out of chaos.

So is this eternal, absolute, omnipotent, infinite, order creating, causeless causer sentient or not? Is it merely energy - if so is it sentient energy? Did/does it act out of will, nature, or simple existance?

I beleive that this eternal, absolute, omnipotent, infinite, order creating, causeless causer IS sentient.

Why is that so illogical and bizzare?



Another thought:

While there is of course no proof that God exists, there is most certianly rational, real, and logical evidence. My outline above is one way, and a similar thought process is as follows:

1) We exist. If you disagree with this you contradict yourself because the mere ability to disagree implies existence.

2) We are alive.

Do you understand the above two statements?


If you understood them then you have understanding - "reason".

3) There is an observable hierarchy of beings. At the low end - a rock, which simply "is" - it is only a "being". Then take a tree(a being that lives). A Dog is a being that lives, moves, and has senses.

At the top of our observable hierarchy is humans - who possess all the characteristics of the beings below us... and then also have reason.

4) Reason is what seperates us and makes us higher than all other beings.

5) But if there is anything higher on the hierarchy than humans, it would be this "god" being. <-- NOTE - If, and only if, you accept this concept can this argument continue.

6) Seven plus three is ten. Math is a fact - it is true. It isn't 10 because we want it to be, or decided it was - it just IS. It was 10 in the past, it is ten now, it always will be 10.

7) That truths like math exist are evidence that there is a level - an existance - above human reason.

8) This is evidence that such an existance - an absolute reason and existance - could be "God".


If anyone is so inclined, take a read of the following 5 theoretical proofs for the existance of God:

1) The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

2) The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

3) The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence--which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

4) The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

5) The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.


The above 2 arguments are not mine - I'm interested to see who knows who they are by!
 

Athanasius

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
975
0
0
Elledan:

Here are just a few snippets from your extensive history here at AT:

Elledan Quote:

<< Every time I hear how 'happy' some family is with a mentally disabled child and much it has 'enriched' their lifes I want to throw up. What can you possible learn from a 'defective' organism? >>



How close minded is that? You obviously have never experienced what the caregiver has, so how can you possibly judge the value of what that caregiver has learned?


[Elledan Quote:

<< I consider the current situation to be much alike when one or more people are seized and kept hostage: as long as the outsiders (police, for example) try to get the hostages back alive, the hostage-taker(s) know that they've control the situation. But when the value of the life of a hostage is considered to be irrelevant and the police enters the building and kills the hostage-taker(s) other people who consider taking some people hostage will know that that will proof to be futile.

In this case, the hostages are ethics, religious values and other ballast we've build up over the years. The hostage-takers are the people who use parts of the ballast to control other people (and mostly fool themselves as well). If we finally come to the conclusion that we don't need all the extra ballast and throw it off, Humanity would be a lot more free than it was before.
>>



Do you even follow your own analogy logically? You state that "only when the lives of the hostages are considered irrelevant" and the "hostage takers" are exterminated will there be true freedom. But in your analogy the "hostage takers" are real people with ethics or religious conviction who simply try to influence people based on their own convictions. Plus, I highly dispute your belief that ethics are the source of human bondage. I will grant you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't mean it literally, but if that is the best analogy you can come up with, I question your seemingly advanced enlightenment.


Elledan Quote:

<< I see that my opinions are not appreciated. However, keep in mind that they are, for a Human, totally unbiased and objective. I could go on for hours, telling all of my thougths, conclusions on various topics, but I don't think that the time is right. Maybe in a few thousand years when there will be more artificial beings than carbon-based life-forms on this planet my thoughts will be accepted. >>



So Elledan the super man is only a few thousand years more advanced then the rest of us? Only Elledan on this Board is capable of such an objective assessment of himself?


Elledan Quote:

<< Most Humans deserve to be exterminated by some alien species. >>



And you expect the rest of humanity to hear what you have to say? You obviously value us so highly and with such respect.

I am rarely so blunt in challenging someone'e thinking, but hopefully you will re-assess they way in which you present yourself. The fact that you don't flame people (in and of itself commendable) does not mean that you don't communicate DISRESPECT loudly and clearly.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
Thanks for the links.....that is so......I can't even think of the words to describe how crazy that story is...


just plain sad. :frown:
 

Athanasius

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
975
0
0
Well, Aristotle started the "Unmoved/Prime Mover" Argument.

I think Optimus is summarizing arguments synthesized by Thomas Aquinas.
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
0
0
I knew Athanasius would know who!

Aquinas for the 5 proofs, St. Augustine for the 8 step one in the middle. The top one is my outlook derived from several sources and debates including those 2.

 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
1
0


<< I beleive that this eternal, absolute, omnipotent, infinite, order creating, causeless causer IS sentient.

Why is that so illogical and bizzare?
>>


I suppose it is not so illogical and bizarre, but such a belief is uncharacteristically benign. Having Optimus say that he believes in a sentient causer of the universe has no overt negative effect on me. It's certainly no grounds for a heated argument.

However, while a simple belief can be benign, zealous evangelism can be deadly. Where I have a problem with organized religion is how it can mobilize men to act - with harm and violence - against other men, solely because of unprovable faith. When I portray vitroil against some religious people, it's not from them having faith that goes contrary to my own, but it's a reaction to the forceful application of their beliefs on my daily life. They don't believe in free will or individual choice...it's often their way or hell. As somebody who opposes submissiveness as a basic principle, I feel the need to wield the light of reason against these detractors.

I've determined that my own life would endure less pain and suffering if the world adopted an agnostic religious outlook. Perhaps faith in and of itself can be relatively benign, but when faith is applied unwantedly on others, then there is a definite cause for opposition.

And no, Optimus, I am not penning you in as an evangelist. Your posts are almost always worth reading.
 

Athanasius

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
975
0
0
mithrandir2001 quote:

<< However, while a simple belief can be benign, zealous evangelism can be deadly. Where I have a problem with organized religion is how it can mobilize men to act - with harm and violence - against other men, solely because of unprovable faith >>



But surely such excess zeal is not limited to the religious realm? 20th Atheistic Communism was certainly a faith: it had no demonstrable historical evidence that its system was superior to other current systems in the world. Yet its zealous followers in the Soviet Union, North Korea, and China killed millions and millions of people.

Of course, by current paradigms of "proof" and "knowledge," would it be a stretch to say that we are all agnostic? There would be value in at least considering this concept before we launch religious based jihads.
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
0
0
Mithrandir2001:

I think that can be said of almost any zealous group of humans. Throw a bunch of people together and get them really psyched up about something and hell always seems to break loose!

One tiny thing:


<< And no, Optimist, I am not penning you in as an evangelist. Your posts are almost always worth reading. >>


Thanks, but its MUS! Optimus! Like the Transformer!
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
1
0
We seem to find agreement here and it underscores while I consider myself libertarian. The imposition of will by one group onto another group or individual can be devastating to the unwanted receiver, whether the imposers are believers or atheists.

Perhaps I am looking at it from a rose-colored perspective, but I consider the agnostic route to be the best compromise. For instance, I am pro-choice and hope reproductive rights remain legal. But some people are pro-life by virtue of their religious beliefs and want the practice banned. Since I like to use reason to solve problems, I think banning abortion is unacceptable because it helps one group (pro-lifers), while hurting another (pro-choicers). However, if abortion remains legal is a technically win-win because nobody is forced to go against their beliefs, so the will expressed is ultimately each own's. I'm saying this as a hypothetical example here, not necessarily to start a debate on abortion.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |