Do you consider this to be racism/hate speech

[fskimospy]

Racism is not a solvable problem in so far that it requires the races to be equal(or more correctly, every race to be at least as good as whites), much like sexism isn't a solvable problem since the sexes aren't equal(or more correctly, women to be at least as good as men).

The two retarded sins of current American religion.

It never ceases to amaze me that people with your opinion have next to no understanding of the argument they claim to be arguing against.

Literally no one arguing that we need to address sexism is saying that we need to make the two sexes exactly equal because everyone knows there are fundamental differences between the sexes. What they are saying is that our society does not accurately reflect those differences and places women in a disadvantageous situation that cannot be justified by the empirical evidence.

The idea that's not solvable is dumb. Of course it's solvable, our society just needs to stop acting irrationally.

 

[feralkid]

You may have me confused with someone else, but if one believes in the concept of collective guilt and of full reparations, then yes, that would be a logically consistent conclusion, wouldn't it?

That was my point...not debating you directly in any way.

 

[Snarf Snarf]

The thing about collective guilt is that it's unconditional. The way it works is that if you are in group x, then you are guilty regardless. But you are attaching conditions to the guilt, so already the concept of collective guilt has problems to you. That said, I have a great level of respect for the way you articulated the point.

Yeah I'm aware, what I'm extending is that it's not collective guilt, people are individually guilty as much as they would like to deny any responsibility to the state of the problem.

They are naive in their assumptions that the only thing holding us back is a sense of vengeance against the white man, completely ignoring the innate level of offense there is in implying that if we were only as "woke" as them everything would be fine.

 

[gamervivek]

It never ceases to amaze me that people with your opinion have next to no understanding of the argument they claim to be arguing against.

That's my line.

Never ceases to amaze me how many times I've to use that line.

Literally no one arguing that we need to address sexism is saying that we need to make the two sexes exactly equal because everyone knows there are fundamental differences between the sexes. What they are saying is that our society does not accurately reflect those differences and places women in a disadvantageous situation that cannot be justified by the empirical evidence.

The idea that's not solvable is dumb. Of course it's solvable, our society just needs to stop acting irrationally.

You're jousting with your own strawman there, the point I'm making is that women have to be at least as good men, not exactly equal, they're allowed to be better. Much like blacks have to be at least as good as whites and not exactly equal. No one cares about their over representation in sports. Literally.

The report’s Gender Gap Index ranks countries according to calculated gender gap between women and men in four key areas: health, education, economy and politics to gauge the state of gender equality in a country. The report measures women's disadvantage compared to men, and is not strictly a measure of equality. Gender imbalances to the advantage of women do not affect the score.[2] So, for example, the indicator "number of years of a female head of state (last 50 years) over male value" would score 1 if the number of years was 25, but would still score 1 if the number of years was 50. Due to this methodology, gender gaps that favor women over men are reported as equality, for example the life expectancy of women being longer than men in a country would not cause deficits of equality in other areas to become less visible in the score.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Gender_Gap_Report#WEF_Global_Gender_Gap_Index_rankings

I'd suggest to not reply to me again, I vaguely recall that you proceeded with such nonsense in the past and haven't made any amends.

 

[jackstar7]

Thoughtfulness, compassion, hostility, whininess, these are all feelings which have validity. I realize that my views may not properly conform to how many think I should feel; sometimes it's beyond me to look compassionate and be rational at the same time.

What?

Honestly, I'm asking. What did this response have to do with what I wrote?

 

[Jaskalas]

Constant reminders are necessary, and no, white people do not get to decide when the racial divide has been healed and claim to be victims of a race war.

Reminders to oppose supremacists, and racists, sure. But what else? Do we want to be reminded of our divisions? Of mankind's tribal instinct to stereotype and hate upon the "other"? That'd be a terrible mistake to prey upon the weakness of human nature. To say that white people have no voice in the matter.

No one views reminders of transgressions as divisive except for white people. Sorry, but to ask an oppressed population to forgive, forget, and move on is completely unrealistic. I would even go as far as to say its a pretty offensive view point to hold. Why is the onus of forgiveness on the oppressed? Why is it too much to ask for people to have their ancestors transgressions be spoken about openly and honestly, to teach lessons to future generations on how to not behave when in power?

When it come to acceptance of the "other", I'm afraid you lost perspective.

...

What most of us want is for our fellow American's to simply admit that yes, there is a problem, and start asking what can we do to find solutions to make our daily experiences the same.

If we want the same thing, then how are we talking past each other?

We start with a topic where the shoe is on the other foot. Salon.com has been demonstrated to present racist headlines against whites. As in they are racial. Those are not "constant reminders", they are fresh aggravations. New racial offenses. Two wrongs do not make this right. And even if you want to rub people's noses in it, to make whites "taste" a fraction of what racism feels like, then I must warn you.

As you know all too well, those who are victims of injustice, of racism, will have hatred instilled into them. Those transgressions become an anger that corrupts even the innocent. Driving a people in power towards that hatred is not the correct path. If we are busy trading blows and raising conflicts, how does that help anyone? How does tribalism bring us closer to a post racial society?

Someone said "it may need to get worse before it gets better". Guys, if race relations get any worse then no one will care about putting hatred aside and finding a way to work together. It would be every man, or tribe, for itself. Conflict brings out the WORST in us. Poking and prodding at ways to escalate it are horrifically misguided.


A pillar of my belief on this subject is that we have reached a better place in our society. I think you said as much in that post. While I grew up our nation's tensions were simmering, not boiling. I believe we're still a country where race is not the primary factor in racial prejudice. I believe class and culture are huge factors in keeping people divided. Where, without those excuses for conflict, we can form a majority of people who would rather come together and treat each other with equality and justice.

You want to talk about police violence? I do too, but it affects everyone. It's all our problem. And it hurts poor people (minorities) the most. Police reform is something I stand for. But there's more. We can help POC by also changing our economy. By addressing the income equality keeping them stuck with crime and stuck as the target of police attention. If people get a Basic Income they would have constant opportunities for a better life. They'd be free to move out of dangerous neighborhoods and take root in safer communities across the nation.

Imagine the Chicago south-side where young mothers could have the opportunity to move their kids away from constant gun violence. It's not just a solution via police reform, it's a solution that needs economic reform. And when we wage a campaign to help all people, what we are really doing is helping those most in need. Helping POC comes naturally when we are doing the right thing for our fellow Americans. For all our fellow Americans.

It would help if we presented it as such. With inclusive messages that ignores race. Justice is blind. Forming a post racial society requires the same from us. You cannot tell us whites have no say. You cannot tell us they need a taste of the lash. You cannot tell us there is no forgiveness, no healing. If you truly believed that, we wouldn't be using words.

A better future needs a bridge to get us there. One that all of us can envision and support.

 

[crashtech]

What?

Honestly, I'm asking. What did this response have to do with what I wrote?

Here's what you wrote:

Here's the thing, when a white person responds to the general idea that white people are oppressors with a "NOT ME! THAT'S RACIST!" then they're not displaying any amount of thoughtfulness or compassion. They're too self-absorbed to consider that maybe they should be an ally to people of color and accept the truth in their hostility. You don't think they have a right to be hostile? Okay, that's an opinion you can have. But to me the real analogy is to people who say that there are a lot of false accusations we need to worry about in the #MeToo movement. Like those concerns outweigh the overall injustice that is trying to be addressed. It's fucking pathetic and whiny and entitled. It is the "equality feels like oppression" of another movement towards justice.

What you are essentially saying is that saying the wrong things hurts feelings, even saying things that are at least partially true and not actually hateful. I can't disagree, but feelings aren't ultimately relevant, actions are.

 

[Amused]

Not THE definition, just yours. Please continue with your head up your ass.
4 different online dictionaries, 4 different definitions.

Racism - hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Racism - any action, practice, or belief that reflects the racial worldview—the ideology that humans may be divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races”

Racism - a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement

Racism - The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.



When we have an officially state sponsored dictionary, maybe your argument might hold a thimble full of water, but it currently does not.

Wow, you're actually too stupid to see all of those support what I am saying. Not what you're trying to deny.

BTW, the first line of Wikipedia:

Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity.

ADL: Racism is the belief that a particular race is superior or inferior to another, that a person’s social and moral traits are predetermined by his or her inborn biological characteristics.

Again, the ism denotes a belief that yours is better than theirs. Classism, sexism, racism.

Funny how no one has attempted to dispute the classism example.

Why is that?

So, let's go through your examples and show what a cute little cherry picker you are, shall we?

Your first example is the 3rd entry in the webster dictionary. It follows these entries which are primary:

racism
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
: a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles: a political or social system founded on racism

Oh wow. You literally jumped over the first two main definitions and cherry picked one to suit you leaving out the previous qualifiers?

Nice cherry.

Your second example supports what I'm saying. You're just too stupid to realize it. And here is the full quote from Britannica:

Racism, also called racialism, any action, practice, or belief that reflects the racial worldview—the ideology that humans may be divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races”; that there is a causal link between inherited physical traits and traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural and behavioral features; and that some races are innately superior to others. Since the late 20th century the notion of biological race has been recognized as a cultural invention, entirely without scientific basis.

Awesome cherry picking fail there, dumbass.​

So is your third. Full quote from Dictionary.com:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

Holy shit you are the god damn cherry picking fucking champion motherfucker!

And so is your forth.

So what do we have? You looking dumber than a box of fucking rocks.

 

[Snarf Snarf]

A better future needs a bridge to get us there. One that all of us can envision and support.

I said white people do not get to decide how or when the forgiveness has been earned. Not that they don't have a voice. Oppressors do not get to choose when they have done enough for the oppressed to move on, that by nature implies that they still hold some power over the oppressed.

You have the right idea, you're just being way too idealistic in your assumption that culturally and economically we are ready to reach across the divide and accept the olive branch. See my post earlier about plenty of people being actively guilty to contributing to the racial divide by voting for people that do not support policies to heal the wounds.

Forgiveness should not be given to someone who is still continuing to actively engage in the offensive actions that they are being asked forgiveness for(Think of a cheating husband asking his wife for forgiveness while actively still engaging in adultery). Apologies are great, and they are absolutely the first step in healing relationships but the true test of how genuine the sentiment is the actions that follow. While people continue to support leaders who actively seek to keep the imbalance at play, and rally that base to get votes to remain in power, the healing can not continue.

The message to people who actually are individually beyond the scope of race. That's great, we need more of you, but understand that just because you personally have reached that point, you still have a responsibility as a fellow American to hold your elected officials accountable to your own personal standards. Once most people reach that understanding and we actually begin to change the policy that enables racial inequality at both federal and local levels, we can take the next step in healing 200 years of wounds.

 

[fskimospy]

That's my line.

Never ceases to amaze me how many times I've to use that line.

You're jousting with your own strawman there, the point I'm making is that women have to be at least as good men, not exactly equal, they're allowed to be better. Much like blacks have to be at least as good as whites and not exactly equal. No one cares about their over representation in sports. Literally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Gender_Gap_Report#WEF_Global_Gender_Gap_Index_rankings

I'd suggest to not reply to me again, I vaguely recall that you proceeded with such nonsense in the past and haven't made any amends.

Haha, thanks for making it so abundantly clear that you don't understand the arguments you're fighting against. People are also not arguing that the two sexes need to either be equal or, failing that, for women to be superior. The fact that you thought a particular measurement index was indicative of the goal of people fighting against sexism is...baffling. If you genuinely think the World Economic Forum would find the situation appropriate if the situation were exactly reversed you've lost your mind.

I don't know where you got all this nonsense in your head but you should seriously reconsider whatever sources you picked this up from. Also, I don't think you understand what a straw man is. A straw man is when you purposefully misrepresent someone's argument to make it easier to defeat. If anything, you took your dumb argument here and made it even dumber, haha.

 

[crashtech]

@Snarf Snarf , You forward the notion that in 2018, white=oppressor, but that's an expression of the collective guilt you explicitly said you don't endorse.

Some whites are oppressors, for sure. We need to weed them out and strip them of their power. Lots of them are dying off. The sooner the better, and the more vigorously we work to correct the mindset of anyone they have poisoned, the better. I was exposed to quite a bit of racist attitudes growing up. None of it ever sat right with me, but those kinds of beliefs are insidious. I made damn sure to explicitly teach my kids the opposite to the best of my ability. I think the new generation is doing great in this regard, it's mostly the old people that are the problem.

 

[jackstar7]

Here's what you wrote:

What you are essentially saying is that saying the wrong things hurts feelings, even saying things that are at least partially true and not actually hateful. I can't disagree, but feelings aren't ultimately relevant, actions are.

Cool. I'm not sure you got what I'm saying, but moving on from what you say here, what actions do you think should be taken to correct for systemic racism? And do you think that when a member of a minority group displaying racial discrimination of their own, is that a more pressing issue than the systemic racism; or does it somehow invalidate all affected parties because since everyone can be racist then is racism actually a problem?

 

[dyna]

I said white people do not get to decide how or when the forgiveness has been earned. Not that they don't have a voice. Oppressors do not get to choose when they have done enough for the oppressed to move on, that by nature implies that they still hold some power over the oppressed.

You have the right idea, you're just being way too idealistic in your assumption that culturally and economically we are ready to reach across the divide and accept the olive branch. See my post earlier about plenty of people being actively guilty to contributing to the racial divide by voting for people that do not support policies to heal the wounds.

Forgiveness should not be given to someone who is still continuing to actively engage in the offensive actions that they are being asked forgiveness for(Think of a cheating husband asking his wife for forgiveness while actively still engaging in adultery). Apologies are great, and they are absolutely the first step in healing relationships but the true test of how genuine the sentiment is the actions that follow. While people continue to support leaders who actively seek to keep the imbalance at play, and rally that base to get votes to remain in power, the healing can not continue.

The message to people who actually are individually beyond the scope of race. That's great, we need more of you, but understand that just because you personally have reached that point, you still have a responsibility as a fellow American to hold your elected officials accountable to your own personal standards. Once most people reach that understanding and we actually begin to change the policy that enables racial inequality at both federal and local levels, we can take the next step in healing 200 years of wounds.

Why is it that you specially called out "white people?" Do you also believe that only white people can be racist?

 

[crashtech]

Cool. I'm not sure you got what I'm saying, but moving on from what you say here, what actions do you think should be taken to correct for systemic racism? And do you think that when a member of a minority group displaying racial discrimination of their own, is that a more pressing issue than the systemic racism; or does it somehow invalidate all affected parties because since everyone can be racist then is racism actually a problem?

It's obviously a really tough problem, but I don't think solutions that target groups can ultimately be effective, and may actually be counterproductive in some ways. With metoo, we see individuals being called out and punished, that's what we need to do to anyone caught engaging in racist behavior. But it's a devilishly difficult thing to do, because many racist acts are easy to conceal under some other pretense.

 

[jackstar7]

It's obviously a really tough problem, but I don't think solutions that target groups can ultimately be effective, and may actually be counterproductive in some ways. With metoo, we see individuals being called out and punished, that's what we need to do to anyone caught engaging in racist behavior. But it's a devilishly difficult thing to do, because many racist acts are easy to conceal under some other pretense.

So you don't think there's a societal debt that needs to be paid for the generations of subjugation, and the legacy that persists to this day? You think as a whole society has paid that debt or otherwise been absolved of it?

 

[jackstar7]

Why is it that you specially called out "white people?" Do you also believe that only white people can be racist?

Do you believe that the racism of non-whites in America is on par with (or greater than) the destructive force of racism by whites in America?

Or do you have a quixotic goal to eradicate ALL racism with a magic wand of some sort?

 

[dyna]

Do you believe that the racism of non-whites in America is on par with (or greater than) the destructive force of racism by whites in America?

Or do you have a quixotic goal to eradicate ALL racism with a magic wand of some sort?

I guess I view racism as a crime of an individual regardless of color rather than a particular group. However, there appear to be some that believe that only whites can be the racists. If that is your stance, it totally changes the type of rational conversation you can have on the topic.

 

[dyna]

So you don't think there's a societal debt that needs to be paid for the generations of subjugation, and the legacy that persists to this day? You think as a whole society has paid that debt or otherwise been absolved of it?

Would a million dollars be enough per person? What do you think is the payment that pays off that debt?

 

[jackstar7]

I guess I view racism as a crime of an individual regardless of color rather than a particular group. However, there appear to be some that believe that only whites can be the racists. If that is your stance, it totally changes the type of rational conversation you can have on the topic.

So you see the KKK and neo-Nazis as groups of individuals rather than something greater, something collective?

Would a million dollars be enough per person? What do you think is the payment that pays off that debt?

Why do you think there has to be a monetary figure attached to it? Also, let's use your suggestion here, do you think that would be fair, and who qualifies?

I wonder if the logistics of that are too cumbersome and it might be better to look at more scalable means to address the debt.


Side note: Your leading question about my beliefs about who can or cannot be racist and the implications thereof was something that didn't need to be included. That could have remained in your head and not been this needless backdoor disrespect. If you want to be part of a rational conversation, then be part of it without also trying to be a sly dickhead.

 

[jackstar7]

Follow-up with the view that racism should be handled on a case-by-case basis, are you in favor of efforts made to identify people participating in neo-nazi rallies and informing their employers and all of that kind of thing?

Basically getting identities of all the tiki torchers and such. You're good with that? As long as people keep their disgusting filth behind closed doors, then it's cool with you? Just trying to see how it works. Or should they be swept up into re-education camps until they learn to play nice with the other members of society? Oh, by camps, I mean jails, since that's where people are intended to be rehabilitated for the good of society.

 

[dyna]

So you see the KKK and neo-Nazis as groups of individuals rather than something greater, something collective?


Why do you think there has to be a monetary figure attached to it? Also, let's use your suggestion here, do you think that would be fair, and who qualifies?

I wonder if the logistics of that are too cumbersome and it might be better to look at more scalable means to address the debt.


Side note: Your leading question about my beliefs about who can or cannot be racist and the implications thereof was something that didn't need to be included. That could have remained in your head and not been this needless backdoor disrespect. If you want to be part of a rational conversation, then be part of it without also trying to be a sly dickhead.

I don't think every white person is part of the KKK/Neo-Nazis, do you?

Didn't you imply that some compensation is required for payment/debt? I'm not going to try to sort out who gets paid or who doesn't. Maybe its a check box on your income tax return and that leads to an inquiry about validity of your claim. A successful investigation nets you a million dollars. Maybe there is also an input box where you can specify your demands for centuries of persecution.

You may not want to disclose your position on racism by answering the question, I respect that.

 

[Snarf Snarf]

Some whites are oppressors, for sure. We need to weed them out and strip them of their power. Lots of them are dying off. The sooner the better, and the more vigorously we work to correct the mindset of anyone they have poisoned, the better. I was exposed to quite a bit of racist attitudes growing up. None of it ever sat right with me, but those kinds of beliefs are insidious. I made damn sure to explicitly teach my kids the opposite to the best of my ability. I think the new generation is doing great in this regard, it's mostly the old people that are the problem.

Why is it that you specially called out "white people?" Do you also believe that only white people can be racist?

In the context of the American racial divide, white people are the oppressors yes. To say otherwise is to completely ignore this nations history. Given the complex social and cultural dynamics across the globe you can only look at each instance individually, I have been referring specifically in this thread to racism in the United States. Therein lies the problem with talking about "general racism" and racism in America. Our problem here is very specific, the systemic abuse of people of color by the majority white population through slavery and indentured servitude, and in the modern era systemic abuse to maintain a socio-economic advantage over said population.

To put it another way, calling a child molester a rapist is not considered offensive, it's factually correct. When referring to the oppressive nature of the system ran and maintained by a largely white population, referring to it as an oppressive white culture isn't offensive, it's factually correct.

If you want to advance these kinds of conversations with POC stop getting offended when we talk about the history of this country without red white and blue tinted lenses. We can't move forward when people are demanding a kind of equality that isn't shared by the other party. A lot of us would love to be in the position of the offended white person in today's world, the world where internet outrage is the biggest threat to your way of life.

 

[crashtech]

So you don't think there's a societal debt that needs to be paid for the generations of subjugation, and the legacy that persists to this day? You think as a whole society has paid that debt or otherwise been absolved of it?

As a practical matter, it simply can't be repaid, just like the Native Americans cannot be repaid. It's a disgrace, but to believe otherwise is an exercise in futility. The Germans can't ever repay what they did in WW2. The Turks can't repay what they did to the Armenians. The list goes on and on. In a way, to tack some dollar amount on it diminishes it, I think. it's a terrible stain on our history, and it is perhaps true that the descendants of the perpetrators should feel more contrition and be more proactive in fighting for equality.

What do you propose to remedy what you call the societal debt?

 

[crashtech]

Follow-up with the view that racism should be handled on a case-by-case basis, are you in favor of efforts made to identify people participating in neo-nazi rallies and informing their employers and all of that kind of thing?

Basically getting identities of all the tiki torchers and such. You're good with that? As long as people keep their disgusting filth behind closed doors, then it's cool with you? Just trying to see how it works. Or should they be swept up into re-education camps until they learn to play nice with the other members of society? Oh, by camps, I mean jails, since that's where people are intended to be rehabilitated for the good of society.

I think revealing their identities and maximally shaming them is a great idea. I don't know if we're ready to make the simple expression of horrible ideas a crime though. That's probably a bridge too far.

 

[jackstar7]

I think revealing their identities and maximally shaming them is a great idea. I don't know if we're ready to make the simple expression of horrible ideas a crime though. That's probably a bridge too far.

So you don't think language itself can be violent?