Do you need a torque wrench for your lug nuts?

[Lurknomore]

Front right tire on my '07 Camry was leaking 3psi for a few days, so when I took it too the tire place, they found a small nail- did the usual check for leaks in a bath, patched it, and the guy put it back on. And BOY, did he air wrench it on realllllllll tight!

And the steering felt really tight when I drove it.
Now I feel a little paranoid about stories of warped rotors, wheels and such.
Do you think he should have checked and used a torque wrench to manufacturers specs, somewhere round 85-100, from what I've heard? Or what's a good one to buy and from where? Don't wanna spend more than $50

PS- When I went back home, I loosened them standing on the lug wrench, then hand tightened them again. Is this reasonably safe? I'm sure the wheels are not gonna come right off on the road.

 

[T2urtle]

a little more then hand tight should be good.

generally any torque wrench is better then no torque wrench.

some guys dont know how to use an impact wrench and so do. I used to be good at it to where i can just use an impact and get it roughtly in the 100ft lb area. a little more or less doesn't hurt.

 

[Demo24]

I just use the bar that came with the car and basically put most my body weight on it (I dont stand on it), gets it plenty tight.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Tightening the wheel didn't make the steering tight....that's your imagination.

If you know what you're doing, you don't need a torque wrench. If you don't, then get an el-cheap beam-type torque wrench....the lug nuts really don't require precise torquing like say, a connecting rod bolt.

I've installed literally tens of thousands of lug nuts....nearly all of them with an impact gun. Never had a car come back with warped rotors, and neither did any of the 60+guys I worked with, who also all used impact guns.
We paid homage to the torque wrench movement at one time, by using torque sticks for impact guns, but it wasn't long before we quit trying to hunt down whoever in the shop had them when we needed them, and just used impact guns again.

Now that being said, I know what I'm doing with an impact gun. If you get some yahoo HS kid in the lube shop using one, he CAN screw things up. But if a pro is doing it, you should never have a problem.

 

[helpme]

I always use a torque wrench on my SRT-4, as I change the wheels and tires (street to track) each time I go to the track (road courses). I don't need to mentally forget to fully tighten one, and don't have access to air tools at the track, so it has to be by hand.

 

[Cdubneeddeal]

Originally posted by: Lurknomore

PS- When I went back home, I loosened them standing on the lug wrench, then hand tightened them again. Is this reasonably safe? I'm sure the wheels are not gonna come right off on the road.

Hand tighten them with your fingers or with a lug or socket wrench? Every shop I've ever went to has tightened them with an impact, dropped the car to the ground, then used a torque wrench. In fact, I always use a torque wrench when I have to work on my brakes, half-shafts, or anything that involves removing the wheel. Better safe than sorry.

 

[tylerdustin2008]

You use and impact to tighten them up so you can drop the car. Then use a torque wrench to finish the job.

I live about 100ft from my uncles garage. He uses the best of the best, his torque wrench cost him about $300.

The ONLY time you tighten a lug all the way down with an impact is when it is a big truck... Like a Dump Truck, because no trucker is going to be out there trying to get those tires off.

 

[Lurknomore]

Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal

Originally posted by: Lurknomore

PS- When I went back home, I loosened them standing on the lug wrench, then hand tightened them again. Is this reasonably safe? I'm sure the wheels are not gonna come right off on the road.

Hand tighten them with your fingers or with a lug or socket wrench? Every shop I've ever went to has tightened them with an impact, dropped the car to the ground, then used a torque wrench. In fact, I always use a torque wrench when I have to work on my brakes, half-shafts, or anything that involves removing the wheel. Better safe than sorry.

I meant I retightened them with the lug wrench again, sorry should've been clear.
I tightened them pretty well, should be safe right?

 

[Cdubneeddeal]

Originally posted by: Lurknomore

Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal

Originally posted by: Lurknomore

PS- When I went back home, I loosened them standing on the lug wrench, then hand tightened them again. Is this reasonably safe? I'm sure the wheels are not gonna come right off on the road.

<Hand tighten them with your fingers or with a lug or socket wrench? Every shop I've ever went to has tightened them with an impact, dropped the car to the ground, then used a torque wrench. In fact, I always use a torque wrench when I have to work on my brakes, half-shafts, or anything that involves removing the wheel. Better safe than sorry.

I meant I retightened them with the lug wrench again, sorry should've been clear.
I tightened them pretty well, should be safe right?

Yeah, should be fine. When I don't have my torque wrench handy, I'll do the same thing. If in doubt, go back to the shop that did your tires and have them take a torque wrench to it. They should do it for free.

 

[StageLeft]

I never bother, and I take wheels off a few times/year. I just use a breaker bar to put them on pretty tight after.

I am POSITIVE that a lot of places do not use torque wrenches because I would say more times than not, if I have had my tires put on at a shop and I go to take the wheel off later for brakes or whatever, I need not just the breaker bar but an additional pipe on the end to really crank up the leverage. The nuts are on far too tight for the wheel changing kit to ever have a hope of undoing them. I bet a great number of people with flat tires try to change them on the side of the road and realize the damn nuts will not undo.

 

[natto fire]

Torque stick > torque wrench. Not all shops use them though, because they are kind of pricey and you need a variety of them to do different cars.

 

[chucky2]

Tauras/Sable/Windstar were common for this...where shops would slam them on with the impact or straight wrench, overtighten them, and then 20k later on new brakes the rotors are warped. The guys doing this in the shop have no clue what their doing because - surprise - it takes many miles to end up warping out the rotor, so it's never attributed to their lack of precision.

People over on Taurus Car Club of America figured this out and started re-torqing their lugs to proper specs with a torque wrench after they got back from the mechanic. Surprise - again - most of the repeat rotor warping problems people were having went away.

Basically, you fully cannot trust people to work on your car, Period. Most mechanics are not there to do a quality job, they are there to do a quick job so they can get onto the next job to make even more money; if the job they end up doing holds up, so be it...if not, you'll be back and maybe or maybe not you'll end up paying again. For any job possible on your ride, it's best to take a Trust, but Verify approach.

Chuck

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: chucky2
Tauras/Sable/Windstar were common for this...where shops would slam them on with the impact or straight wrench, overtighten them, and then 20k later on new brakes the rotors are warped. The guys doing this in the shop have no clue what their doing because - surprise - it takes many miles to end up warping out the rotor, so it's never attributed to their lack of precision.

People over on Taurus Car Club of America figured this out and started re-torqing their lugs to proper specs with a torque wrench after they got back from the mechanic. Surprise - again - most of the repeat rotor warping problems people were having went away.

Basically, you fully cannot trust people to work on your car, Period. Most mechanics are not there to do a quality job, they are there to do a quick job so they can get onto the next job to make even more money. For any job possible on your ride, it's best to take a Trust, but Verify approach.

Chuck

Who leaves their wheels on for 20k miles without rotating them? They should be rotated at least 3 times in that mileage period, if not 4.

 

[jagec]

I always use a torque wrench on mine, but my car is known for warping rotors if you just crank down on 'em.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Tightening the wheel didn't make the steering tight....that's your imagination.

If you know what you're doing, you don't need a torque wrench. If you don't, then get an el-cheap beam-type torque wrench....the lug nuts really don't require precise torquing like say, a connecting rod bolt.

I've installed literally tens of thousands of lug nuts....nearly all of them with an impact gun. Never had a car come back with warped rotors, and neither did any of the 60+guys I worked with, who also all used impact guns.
We paid homage to the torque wrench movement at one time, by using torque sticks for impact guns, but it wasn't long before we quit trying to hunt down whoever in the shop had them when we needed them, and just used impact guns again.

Now that being said, I know what I'm doing with an impact gun. If you get some yahoo HS kid in the lube shop using one, he CAN screw things up. But if a pro is doing it, you should never have a problem.

You keep bringing this up. You keep changing the story from using torque heads, sticks, pressure valves, etc.

Anyway there is no doubt that many many mechanics use impacts to put on lugs and there is no doubt to the many people stuck and unable to remove their lugs with hand tools because of that along with studs breaking. Also aluminum wheels being chewed into.

Of course you will come back and certify that every person you did this with came back and never had a problem, even though many people don't come back to the same shop twice. On top of that most people coming to a shop like that would never work on their own cars anyway.

You can get a better than nothing beam torque wrench for under $20. You can also find out what 'hand tight + turns' needed to properly torque something. For lugs the ballpark is big.

Technically one can put together engines all day without one...your life expectancy will very. There is a HUGE reason why pro's (being a mechanic <> pro) take that time to torque things properly. There is no one that can use an impact or even hand wrench and be able to judge in 5ft-lb increments all sizes of hardware nor one.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Who leaves their wheels on for 20k miles without rotating them? They should be rotated at least 3 times in that mileage period, if not 4.

1.) The people who never rotate them and their tires last 55k instead of 65k.

2.) The people who do rotate them and have the same shop that overtightened them do it...and their overtightened again 4x.

Chuck

 

[alkemyst]

What I find laughable #2 is warped rotors are not very rare and this shop of 60+ mechanics never saw a case.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
What I find laughable #2 is warped rotors are not very rare and this shop of 60+ mechanics never saw a case.

Of course, because it wasn't blatantly obvious and 99% of people have no clue about cars, so they just ASSume that their rotors are only lasting 20k due to whatever BS excuse the mechanic - who is not a mechanical engineer with the mountains of field data and testing the makers of the cars do - makes up so the shop doesn't have to pay for new rotors because their lack of attention to detail just prematurely ruined them.

Same for mechanics doing simple lube jobs can't be bothered to find out if FM add is needed, so clutch based diffs bind and prematurely wear (Excuse: Ah, it's ah, um, common in these here, uh, differentials, that they, ah, wear out prematurely)...same as shops using Mercon instead of Mercon V in Mercon V units, or my favorite, taking the cheapo approach and using Mercon and then an ATP like add to "bring it up to Mercon V levels"...etc.

Whatever is the fastest is the rightest...as long as the customer can't pin the results on them (and when it takes months and thousands of miles for damage/undue wear to happen, that happening is impossible...which the shops all know and count on).

Chuck

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
What I find laughable #2 is warped rotors are not very rare and this shop of 60+ mechanics never saw a case.

Never said that, and never has anything I've ever posted changed regarding this subject. We saw plenty of warped rotors. From other shops cranking the nuts down with air guns, to bad drivers that warped brakes, to faulty rotors from the factory that warped no matter how you installed them or drove them. Again, NEVER have I said we didn't see warped rotors.
What I HAVE said is, we didn't see warped rotors from US overtightening them.
Now honestly...in a shop that big, could we have had a yahoo or two over the years in our fast lube that might have messed up like other lube shops? If I'm being honest, then yeah, probably.
But the real technicians in the shop...the line guys like me, didn't have this problem.


Never said anything about a torque head. Ever.

I've mentioned torque sticks before. They've also been talked about by other people. Really doesn't matter matter if I did or not....have you ever told the whole story of 25+ years of your work career and everything that happened in it in the space of a few posts?

Don't know about where you've worked or what brands you've worked on, (I'm guessing nowhere and only your personal cars) but you take a Ford front wheel drive and don't rotate the tires, you are not going to get only a 10k difference in wear most of the time.
And I seriously doubt that people who take the time to post at a car forum like the Taurus site Chucky mentioned are going to wait that long between tire rotations.

I did mention that a novice could get a beam torque wrench and probably should


I guess I've just fucking imagined tightening my own vehicles' tires with impact guns over the last 27 years without EVER having a problem.
But I guess maybe my own car was never a repeat customer....maybe it left on its own in the middle of the night and went to get its tires rotated by someone else.

Not to mention my family member's cars.....all of them with an impact gun, all with NEVER a problem.
That not a big enough cross-section of cars? Sorry, but if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, accuse me (indirectly) of lying, or just think I'm full of it because all lug nuts need to be torqued ("but they do, Car and Driver says so!")

To top all that off, one of my vehicles I bought, a 1993 Bronco, was a Ford buyback...for guess what.....CONTINUALLY WARPING ROTORS. It had 3 sets of rotors/pads replaced in less than 14k miles, along with having them machined a time or two to start with.
The Ford rep authorized a buyback, and I got him to let me buy it instead of sending it back to Ford.
Well, I got rid of it at over 80k miles....rotated my tires every other oil change, always tightened them with my impact gun, and they rotors never warped...that was with me driving, my then-wife driving, and lots of pulling a race truck trailer.
Guess that doesn't count either, huh? So....are these just luck? Or maybe did I know what the hell I was doing when I tightened stuff with an impact gun?
BTW, got an 04 Suburban with 80k and a 99 Tahoe with 120k currently....always tightened with an impact, and no warpage.

 

[senseamp]

You don't need it in a pinch, but considering how much of a pita changing lug bolts and/or rotors is, a $20 torque wrench seems like a good investment.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: alkemyst
What I find laughable #2 is warped rotors are not very rare and this shop of 60+ mechanics never saw a case.

Never said that, and never has anything I've ever posted changed regarding this subject. We saw plenty of warped rotors. From other shops cranking the nuts down with air guns, to bad drivers that warped brakes, to faulty rotors from the factory that warped no matter how you installed them or drove them. Again, NEVER have I said we didn't see warped rotors.
What I HAVE said is, we didn't see warped rotors from US overtightening them.
Now honestly...in a shop that big, could we have had a yahoo or two over the years in our fast lube that might have messed up like other lube shops? If I'm being honest, then yeah, probably.
But the real technicians in the shop...the line guys like me, didn't have this problem.


Never said anything about a torque head. Ever.

I've mentioned torque sticks before. They've also been talked about by other people. Really doesn't matter matter if I did or not....have you ever told the whole story of 25+ years of your work career and everything that happened in it in the space of a few posts?

Don't know about where you've worked or what brands you've worked on, (I'm guessing nowhere and only your personal cars) but you take a Ford front wheel drive and don't rotate the tires, you are not going to get only a 10k difference in wear most of the time.
And I seriously doubt that people who take the time to post at a car forum like the Taurus site Chucky mentioned are going to wait that long between tire rotations.

I did mention that a novice could get a beam torque wrench and probably should


I guess I've just fucking imagined tightening my own vehicles' tires with impact guns over the last 27 years without EVER having a problem.
But I guess maybe my own car was never a repeat customer....maybe it left on its own in the middle of the night and went to get its tires rotated by someone else.

Not to mention my family member's cars.....all of them with an impact gun, all with NEVER a problem.
That not a big enough cross-section of cars? Sorry, but if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, accuse me (indirectly) of lying, or just think I'm full of it because all lug nuts need to be torqued ("but they do, Car and Driver says so!")

To top all that off, one of my vehicles I bought, a 1993 Bronco, was a Ford buyback...for guess what.....CONTINUALLY WARPING ROTORS. It had 3 sets of rotors/pads replaced in less than 14k miles, along with having them machined a time or two to start with.
The Ford rep authorized a buyback, and I got him to let me buy it instead of sending it back to Ford.
Well, I got rid of it at over 80k miles....rotated my tires every other oil change, always tightened them with my impact gun, and they rotors never warped...that was with me driving, my then-wife driving, and lots of pulling a race truck trailer.
Guess that doesn't count either, huh? So....are these just luck? Or maybe did I know what the hell I was doing when I tightened stuff with an impact gun?
BTW, got an 04 Suburban with 80k and a 99 Tahoe with 120k currently....always tightened with an impact, and no warpage.

Fair enough.

So Lurknomore, here's your answer: Either magically know if the person who's torquing your tires down has done it properly, or, trust they haven't since you're footing the bill in the long run when the most likely F it up, and do the job right yourself. Or, stand there and watch them and then tell them you want the tires torqued properly and in the right sequence...and then most likely prepare for the discussion on why they don't need to do that...

Chuck

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Tightening the wheel didn't make the steering tight....that's your imagination.

If you know what you're doing, you don't need a torque wrench. If you don't, then get an el-cheap beam-type torque wrench....the lug nuts really don't require precise torquing like say, a connecting rod bolt.

I've installed literally tens of thousands of lug nuts....nearly all of them with an impact gun. Never had a car come back with warped rotors, and neither did any of the 60+guys I worked with, who also all used impact guns.
We paid homage to the torque wrench movement at one time, by using torque sticks for impact guns, but it wasn't long before we quit trying to hunt down whoever in the shop had them when we needed them, and just used impact guns again.

Now that being said, I know what I'm doing with an impact gun. If you get some yahoo HS kid in the lube shop using one, he CAN screw things up. But if a pro is doing it, you should never have a problem.

You keep bringing this up. You keep changing the story from using torque heads, sticks, pressure valves, etc.

No, I keep answering the same question because people don't use the search function. The answer doesn't change, because the facts haven't. Therefore, my story has never changed, either, unlike the lie you just told above indicates.

Cliffs of what I've always posted, for ten-cent know-it-all magazine-readers like you who just like to argue and piss people off:
1. If you're an amateur or unsure of yourself, use a torque wrench.
2. If you're a professional and have done this type of work your whole life, which by the way, you have NOT, you can use an impact and not warp rotors.

Now, there have been plenty of other details in the middle of all these "how to tighten lug nuts" threads, but those two things have remained constant in what I've told people.

 

[alkemyst]

so you no longer have a valve on the impact that lowered the torque...

If you go to ANY custom wheel shop worth two shits they use torque wrenches for the final torque.

 

[Gillbot]

I use a torque stick with my impact then follow it up with my torque wrench.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
so you no longer have a valve on the impact that lowered the torque...

If you go to ANY custom wheel shop worth two shits they use torque wrenches for the final torque.

Custom wheels=Whole different ballgame. You can take a mag wheel and warp the rotor immediately. Completely different ballgame than stock wheels.
When I was about 16, my friend and I both had old Trans Ams. We decided to swap wheels for a weekend to see if we wanted to trade. I had the snowflake stock wheels, and he had some sort of mag wheels...can't remember exactly what brand. Anyway, we swapped at the Firestone I was working at the time. I didn't tighten my wheels in a star pattern....didn't matter with my stock wheels. The brakes about shook me out of the car the very first time I applied them. Drive right back to the shop, and one of the old dudes there told me to use the star pattern. Fixed it immediately....didn't even have to touch the rotors. Keep in mind, these were older-style rotors that had the hub made into them...unlike the floating or slip-on rotors of today. The way you tightened those made a much more immediate difference.

Yes, all impact guns I've ever seen have a knob that you can turn the gun strength down lower. Re-read my post and I never even mentioned it one way or another.

I responded specifically to the term you used, "torque head". I assume that to be something like what everyone I know calls a "torque stick".

I'll let you in on a little secret about air tools, particularly impacts, that you don't know: They are all over-rated. If they claim to do 220lb/ft, then you can rest assured that you probably can get 180 out of it if you're lucky.
Not only that, but shops vary widely in the amount of air pressure they have....which directly affects your impact's power.
The same impact gun I use at home now, which was a pretty strong one when I worked at a dealership, won't strip a lug nut to save its life here at home. My compressor and line setup simply doesn't have the pressure.
I borrow air tools (usually blowers) from all the shops I am a vendor for from time to time....they vary HUGE amounts in how much air pressure they have.

One more secret an experienced mechanic can do that regular backyard folks don't think about: Testing your impact. Tighten lugs and test them with a torque wrench. If you use it every day, you get really good with it if you have half a brain.

It's no different than any other job or sport when you compare pros to average Joes.

Hey, you can pick up Eddie Van Halen's Frankenstrat guitar and learn how to play Running With The Devil tonight. But you can't play Eruption, or any of his concert solo spots that quickly.....yet you could if you practiced them for years and years like he has.

You can learn how to shoot a sniper rifle right now if you wanted to....but you couldn't hit a moving target 1000 yards away without a LOT of practice.....but a Marine Sniper can do it the first time, nearly every time. Why....because he practices very frequently.
But a regular Marine can't do that, so he's better off calling in air support or a real sniper.

It's no different from backyard mechanics to professional mechanics. They use their tools all day, every day, and are much better at handling them than you'll ever be unless you become one of them.

Edit: Note that the yardage I used in the sniper example are just that, examples....I have no idea how far a real sniper or regular Marine can reliably hit someone.