Do you reveal your wage to your co-workers?

[eleison]

Actually, there is research done about salaries and what not. I cannot find the link, but one of the findings was that people who gossip (i.e., talk about how much people were making, etc..) they made more money than their non-gossiping co-workers.


In any case, here is the optimal strategry for maximizing your salary.

1) find out how much everyone is making (records, asking other employees', etc.)
2) use this as leverage in negotiation - i.e., you know the ceiling and you can tell when managment is BS'ing you.
3) tell everyone ELSE to not talk about salary. A company only has so much money.. if Larry from accounting is making 40K when everyone else is making 70.. he is saving the company 30 k which could go to your bonus or your raise. The more people being under paid, the better you are off.


All in all this is how I do things:

1) I make good friends at work. We exchange salary information.
2) there are people at work who don't exchange information.. we don't care as long as we get a good sample within our clique.
3) We DONT tell people who don't exchange information with us. They could be underpaid, but as noted above.. it is to our benefit... the more people left in the dark, the better it is for our clique.

For all those poeple who do not reveal your wage to your co-workers... In a way, I appauld you. I'm not sure if I should be happy or sad, but you guys make me and my friends get paid more

 

[kranky]

That's an interesting strategy, eleison. How do you apply it?

Let's say you know five other people are making $10K more than you. You want to use that information to get a bigger raise from me. What are you going to say to me?

I am going to tell you that, based on your performance and company salary guidelines, your raise is $X. Now what?

 

[toolboxolio]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Thetech
Hmm.... I was just thinking though, how do we know management isn't using our reluctancy against us? How do we know that we are being payed fairly in comparison to everyone else?

Nobody is ever paid failry in comparison to everyone else. That's the beauty of it. You can be making twice what your co-worker is just because you're a better negotiator.

Do you really want him knowing that he's busting his but for half of what you're making? Nope.

exactly.

I had 2 previous jobs before I went to college where I negotiated to be paid more than my immediate coworkers (which I found out later).

I made the mistake of letting everyone know what I made at WebMD... didn't make many friends. Quit to goto UF soon there after. Lesson learned.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: kranky
That's an interesting strategy, eleison. How do you apply it?

Let's say you know five other people are making $10K more than you. You want to use that information to get a bigger raise from me. What are you going to say to me?

if you are my manager, I would say the following: "This years raises are a bit low. I've been doing some research and I think I'm getting underpaid for what I do. Can you do anything about the salary?"

He will either say yes or no. I will ask for a reason. In any case, since I am better informed, I will be more confident and managment will have a harder time Bsing

I am going to tell you that, based on your performance and company salary guidelines, your raise is $X. Now what?

This is easy, just see how your proformance stacks up with everyone elses. Asking co-workers about what they done, their success, etc.. is easy. After all, you work with them. In this way, you have a measuring stick.

If it is truely a case where management is underpaying you and they will not budge, it maybe a good time to leave. If you are getting underpaid by 10K.. thats a lot of money... esp.. if its year after year...

My close friends and I have started comparing salaries a couple of years ago... we are all engineers of sometype or another. In any case, we decided we were all underpaid.. most of us have tried to reason with management.. Sometimes it works, but then somethings it doesn't. When it didn't we simply started to look for new jobs.. Most of my friends have now been making what they should be.

Take for instance, one of my friends was making 70K, he is now making 93K.. thats a 23k increase.. now if he was just happy keeping to himself, he would never have gotten "mad" enough about his salary to leave...

Like I said some people like to be abuse.. Hey, its their life... more money for me and my friends

 

[Midlander]

Never. I have heard others share and all it does is unleash the jealousy monster. Don't do it.

 

[Rob9874]

Originally posted by: kranky
That's an interesting strategy, eleison. How do you apply it?

Let's say you know five other people are making $10K more than you. You want to use that information to get a bigger raise from me. What are you going to say to me?

I am going to tell you that, based on your performance and company salary guidelines, your raise is $X. Now what?

Exactly. Unless you work somewhere real small, you're not going to be able to negotiate a raise. In the corporate world, you fill out your yearly review, get 360 feedback, and they rank you among your peers, and the managers get together and figure out how to split up the budget they've been given. You can gather all the info you want about what your co-workers make, but it's not going to make a lick of difference when you're dept is given a certain percentage to distribute among 10 people.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: eleison
Negotiation is largely based on what you know. the more information you have the better off you are. Everyone will agree with that... Take for instance negotiating on a car... It would be wise to get as much information before haggling... To start negotiation without knowing what other people bought the same car for... or without even knowing the invoice price.. its just bad ...

Totally disagree when it relates to salary. Sure, using salary.com to get a ball park is a good idea. But just as a good salesman can get more for the car or get you to buy the rust protection and winter package, you can get a much bigger compensation package than others if you're good.

So where does being "good" part come into play? Is it genetics related?
Because so far you've rejected negotiation based on what you know from other employees and people working in the same field.
How exactly does one determine their worth without comparing to what others working in the same field are making vs. the work they're putting in with your own share?

OK...lets do it this way.
I'm your boss, and you come to me looking for a pay raise and I give you $63,000.
What do yo do now?

*remember that you don't know what your co-workers are making, and you have nothing to compare to besides what is posted on salary.com($60-72k), and I as your boss know those salary.com figures as well*

Now what?

 

[Rob9874]

Even if you know what your co-workers are making, that doesn't mean much, because the company could be underpaying everyone. Which was the case at my old company. We were all making around $65,000. So based on that, I should feel I'm being paid fairly? Well, salary.com said $76,000 to $93,000 for our years of experience. And people who left the company to work elsewhere confirmed that pay range.

So I left. All my co-workers are still there. One guy told me, "I make more than enough to be comfortable, why do I need more?"

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: Special K
How accurate are the distributions posted on websites like salary.com? If we assume the ranges are accurate, then can't you at least figure out a ballpark range for someone's salary if they just tell you what their job title/function is?

Also, to the posters who commented that sharing salary information is bad because you could have two people doing the same job for vastly differing amounts of money:

Don't most companies usually put a hard range of salaries on a given position? That is, they define position X to have a hard salary range of $70k - $85k (just making up numbers here), and to get above the upper limit would require a promotion to a new position?

The reason I ask this is because if the limits are in place, then you can only negotiate yourself up so high, right? I mean if the range for a job is $70k - $85k, wouldn't it be pretty unlikely to find someone doing the exact same job for $150k+?

When I worked for Kodak, I was one of 4 software developer at our location. They put people there at different wage grades (defines the salary range). But two people can have the same job title and do the same work and still be different grades. For instance, 2 of the other developers were one wage grade level below me, even though we all had the same education (BSCS). The only explanation I was given was that they started me at a higher level because I had worked for them for a year on a contract basis before being hired full-time.
Although we all had the same responsibilities and the same job titles, I made about 10k more than them. All of us were close to the bottom of our respective salary ranges, but their grade had a lower range.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Lothar
So where does being "good" part come into play? Is it genetics related?
Because so far you've rejected negotiation based on what you know from other employees and people working in the same field.
How exactly does one determine their worth without comparing to what others working in the same field are making vs. the work they're putting in with your own share?

OK...lets do it this way.
I'm your boss, and you come to me looking for a pay raise and I give you $63,000.
What do yo do now?

*remember that you don't know what your co-workers are making, and you have nothing to compare to besides what is posted on salary.com($60-72k), and I as your boss know those salary.com figures as well*

Now what?

As you can see that figure is in the lower quartile for the position. Given that I'm already in the upper quartile as far as grade levels go the only direction we can go from here is an adjustment. A promotion to a higher grade level to get compensation more in line with industry standards. The next grade level is in the range of 65-110K. Putting me in the middle would be around 80K allowing some room for growth. I can't keep hitting my head in this level without some progression on your end.

 

[ShockwaveVT]

I work with a couple friends and we've all given each other the lowdown. Our salaries are all in line with our experience so there's no resentment issues.

 

[Ausm]

I think it would bring peace and tranquility to the workplace.



Ausm

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Lothar
So where does being "good" part come into play? Is it genetics related?
Because so far you've rejected negotiation based on what you know from other employees and people working in the same field.
How exactly does one determine their worth without comparing to what others working in the same field are making vs. the work they're putting in with your own share?

OK...lets do it this way.
I'm your boss, and you come to me looking for a pay raise and I give you $63,000.
What do yo do now?

*remember that you don't know what your co-workers are making, and you have nothing to compare to besides what is posted on salary.com($60-72k), and I as your boss know those salary.com figures as well*

Now what?

As you can see that figure is in the lower quartile for the position. Given that I'm already in the upper quartile as far as grade levels go the only direction we can go from here is an adjustment. A promotion to a higher grade level to get compensation more in line with industry standards. The next grade level is in the range of 65-110K. Putting me in the middle would be around 80K allowing some room for growth. I can't keep hitting my head in this level without some progression on your end.

You've only been working for two years and there are MANY people with seniority above you deserving promotions who put in just as much work as you do.
I understand your position on "middle" quartile, but the amount posted on salary.com is nothing but an average and does not apply to all companies...especially small companies like this one. However, I'm willing to make a compromise towards the middle quartile of industry standards($60-72k).
Final offer is $65,000. Take it or leave it.



*Meanwhile you still don't know if I'm paying someone else who puts less effort than you on the job $68,000 or not...You have nothing to compare to besides the value posted on salary.com, and you don't know what kind of effort the people in the salary.com middle/upper quartiles put in.
How do you determine what you're worth if you have no one to compare to besides salary.com which doesn't show the actual effort and dedication distributed across the industry salary ranges database?
Do you just determine, oh I should be in the 50% quartile of the $60-72k range because it's "average (or industry standard)" without knowing the personnel effort distribution across the entire range?

 

[GeekDrew]

/me presses stop

People, do just a little research as to whether it's legal or not. I am not a lawyer, and you shall not construe this to be legal advice. Consult appropriate legal counsel if and when appropriate, as determined by yourself. I do not guarantee the suitability of any content in this post for use in any manner whatsoever. Even more usual fine print omitted for brevity.

/me presses rewind
/me presses play

Originally posted by: JDMnAR1
Besides which, some places I have worked at salary discussions were specifically listed as grounds for termination in company policy.

Originally posted by: SandInMyShoes
Heck no, and at the business I'm managing it can get you canned.
... [snipped by GeekDrew] ...
Talking about wages is now strictly off-limits

Originally posted by: spidey07
You signed the code of conduct when you became employed. Most all of them state you cannot speak of your wages with anybody but HR and your supervisor.

/me returns you to your irregularly scheduled programming

Regardless of what company policy is, it is illegal to terminate or punish for discussion of wages.

Please see the following portion of a post that I made on 2005 JUN 22 in this thread:

Originally posted by: GeekDrew
...there are federal laws that prevent termination on the basis of discussing wages. I happen to have a very good friend in Chicago that is a paralegal, and whose brother is a lawyer... I gave them a shout, and they confirmed that most employers do not know that the law is on the books, and many attorneys are making a lot of money from settlements regarding terminations over wage discussions.

I suggest that if you still believe that you are prohibited from discussing your wages, please contact an attorney ASAP, that is well versed in employee and employer rights.

Here happen to be three links to the same case:

National Labor Relations Board,
Petitioner/Cross-Respondent,
v.
Main Street Terrace Care Center,
Respondent/Cross-Petitioner.

http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/shared_files/decisions/327/327-101.htm
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/g...se.pl?court=6th&navby=case&no=00a0218p
http://accounting.smartpros.com/x27337.xml

I'm assured by my legal friends that there is plenty of other case law out there that will assist employees that have been wrongly fired for the reason that they were discussing their pay with another employee or with anyone else.

See also previous discussions on ATOT regarding similar topics here, here, and here.

For the lazy, just Google NLRB v. Main Street Terrace Care Center.

 

[GeekDrew]

Oh, and to actually answer the question posed in the thread title: that's taken care of for me. I'm a public employee, and our wages are available to anyone, upon request.

 

[shortylickens]

When I had just got out of the Navy and didnt know any better I made that mistake at my first job.
Told some folks in orientation what I was promised in my contract. After the first presentation on employee benfits and such I realized I was making about double. They gave me a hard time about it for a while.
Now I keep quiet. I also didnt tell anyone when I got a big raise after only six months.

 

[acivick]

At my current job, I was recruited as part of a "class", meaning about 12 of us were hired for essentially the same position. We all started off at the same salary with the same sign on bonus, which I was able to confirm after discussing it with several other class members. All of us were split up into the various groups in our department. One group, which does significantly more traveling than the others and has a higher turnover rate, I expected to be compensated more. We're also in an organization that has specific pay grades tied to positions, so everyone in the same position has essentially the same upper and lower bounds. After various promotions, bonus and merit increases, I found out several interesting facts.

First, we all continued to be compensated pretty uniformly, including bonuses, to within 1-2k per year depending on how we were evaluated. This means that performance and responsibilities accounted for very little in how management decided to allocate raise/bonus resources.

Second, I found out that a buddy of mine in the high travel group was actually making slightly less than myself (but still within that 1-2k range). He recently moved to another company where he's making about 15-20% more than he did at mine.

Third, my company, or at least department, takes the position that if you were recently promoted (and thus receive a raise due to your increased wage grade), you should be ineligible for as big a merit increase as your coworkers who were not promoted. The logic here being that since you just got a raise for your promotion, you don't need as high a one for your merit since, theoretically, your promotion was based on your merit. I find fault here because it essentially devalues the work your did to make that promotion, since someone who got a promotion will essentially get the same or close to the same overall raise that someone who did not get promoted got. This situation is exacerbated by the fact that every member of my class got promoted REGARDLESS of their individual performance, and thus merit.

Finally, in using my knowledge of my wage range (something ridiculous like 42k-92k) and my middle of the road actual salary, I was able to compare my compensation to the ballpark figure on salary.com and found that I am in the lower mid quartile in both my wage range and salary range of similar professionals in my field in my geographic area. This is despite my "outstanding" annual reviews.

Armed with this knowledge, which I wouldn't have been able to get WITHOUT talking to my coworkers about the general state of our salaries, I am now in a better position to either negotiate a higher wage, or find another company that will compensate me for what I feel I'm worth. Granted, my situation is a special case, but I imagine some of the same arguments can be made by anyone, so long as they have the knowledge beforehand. Yeah it's great if you're being paid more than everyone else, but what if you're being paid less than average? How are you going to know?

 

[Imdmn04]

I don't reveal my salary info to my coworkers. Even with the closest co-workers, I only revealed a vague range.

Friends and family, I don't really care, if asked. As long as they don't work in the same company as I do, there is no conflict of interest.

 

[tickyour]

Of course. I dont see what the big secrecy is all about. I have noticed that thats an American thing, its not like that in Europe.

 

[Thetech]

Originally posted by: tickyour
Of course. I dont see what the big secrecy is all about. I have noticed that thats an American thing, its not like that in Europe.

What's it like in Europe?
I take it they are a lot more lax about wage discussions?

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: cheapdude
At my job, its a dick swinging contest when bonus time comes.

:laugh: