Do you run a UPS?

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bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
Yes, I run an APC Back-UPS CS500 .. would not want to be without it.
 

Kristijonas

Senior member
Jun 11, 2011
859
4
76
"In my country none that I know of use UPS"
Are you speaking of residential users, business users or both?

"Only once or twice in my lifetime were there longer losses of power."
I'm guessing you're fairly young?

"There doesn't appear to be a need for "line conditioning" either."
How can you make that statement unless you've done some type of power monitoring over an extended period of time?

+95% residential, ~90% business computers have no UPS. That's a rough estimate of course and based on my observations, but that's as accurate as it can possibly get. Actually I've never seen an UPS used in businesses, so that 10% is only a guess. I only know one residential person who used an UPS, but he's living in a very old house, so maybe that's why.

I'm 22. Which is since the establishment of the country Which means I accurately observed all the power losses and there were very few and all of them were with several days notices or because of extreme lightning storms, thus computer was always turned off before the electricity was lost or wasn't turned off despite warnings/weather and nothing bad happened either.
 
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rsutoratosu

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2011
2,716
4
81
I have about 15 ups at home, apc 1500, apc smart ups 1000-1500, a few 2u/3u rack mounts, etc. Everything is on UPS, especially the TV, etc.

I have a whole house surge protector, the one you put in at the entry point. Not sure how well that works but so far nothing's blown, but it could be that no lighting ever hit.

I think for me its just convience, ie dvr on ups, if the power is out for a sec, the box doesn't reset and the shows will continue to record.. it sucks when the power is out.. all the ups beeps like crazy
 

Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
485
126
UPS has one function. Temporary and 'dirty' power.

:biggrin:

A proper UPS will output an indistinguishable waveform whether its input (utility) source is present or not. Of course this costs a lot more than the typical mass produced "SOHO" products made overseas.
 

westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
517
0
71
A proper UPS will output an indistinguishable waveform whether its input (utility) source is present or not. Of course this costs a lot more than the typical mass produced "SOHO" products made overseas.
Apparently "proper" means a UPS that costs many $thousands. The "typical" UPS creates some of the 'dirtiest' power in a building. So 'dirty' as to be potentially harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors. Electronics consider that same 'dirty' power as ideal due to standard and robust design standards.

What does the output of a "typical" UPS look like? An electric utility demonstrated in Tech Tip 03 when a UPS switches to battery:
http://www.duke-energy.com/south-ca...ness-continuity/power-quality/tech-tip-03.asp

Some "typical" UPS I have reviewed also include a spike of up to 270 volts on its 120 VAC output. Again ideal since electronics are required to be so robust. When not in battery backup mode, a UPS output is completely different. Because AC mains have a 'cleanest' sine wave.

Why temporary and 'dirty' power? Because a UPS square wave output with a 270 volt spike is made irrelevant by electronic appliances that must be robust.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Apparently "proper" means a UPS that costs many $thousands. The "typical" UPS creates some of the 'dirtiest' power in a building. So 'dirty' as to be potentially harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors. Electronics consider that same 'dirty' power as ideal due to standard and robust design standards.

What does the output of a "typical" UPS look like? An electric utility demonstrated in Tech Tip 03 when a UPS switches to battery:
http://www.duke-energy.com/south-ca...ness-continuity/power-quality/tech-tip-03.asp

Some "typical" UPS I have reviewed also include a spike of up to 270 volts on its 120 VAC output. Again ideal since electronics are required to be so robust. When not in battery backup mode, a UPS output is completely different. Because AC mains have a 'cleanest' sine wave.

Why temporary and 'dirty' power? Because a UPS square wave output with a 270 volt spike is made irrelevant by electronic appliances that must be robust.

Dirty power? LMAO have you ever looked at what's coming out of your wall sockets?
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
14
81
Dirty power? LMAO have you ever looked at what's coming out of your wall sockets?

Yes. Without exception, every mains supply I have tested has been of excellent stability and purity, and essentially free of damaging voltage spikes. Power quality can be an issue in some heavy industrial facilities - where large motors are used, or where large inverters (a few hundred kW+) are used. I've put together a short video showing recordings from my power quality analyser demonstrating the power stability and waveform quality somewhere out in the boonies. The waveform is a bit more distorted in the city, but not that much more (distortion is still below about 6%, even on a bad day - grid is weakened due to lines being taken out of service, during the early evening, when work places are still operating, but people/children are coming home).

Domestic and SOHO level UPSs (even "pure sine" UPSs) produce a much more distorted and "spiky" waveform than the mains, with lots of high-frequency components. Even worse are the modified square wave supplies, which have long periods of zero voltage, and compensate for this by short bursts of very high voltage (e.g. while a 120 V sine wave peaks at 165 V - it's not uncommon for a cheap modified square wave UPS to generate a waveform with peaks of nearly 200 V).

Similarly, simple mechanical relay switching from line to inverter doesn't take account of line phase angle - this can lead to 2 half-cycles of the same polarity. This is hugely damaging to some types of system.
 

westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
517
0
71
Dirty power? LMAO have you ever looked at what's coming out of your wall sockets?
exdeath - please learn facts rather than parrot myths from advertising. Mark R has defined what comes of out a wall socket.
has been of excellent stability and purity, and essentially free of damaging voltage spikes.
Others who want to be lied to by UPS manufacturers would also ignore that utility company's Tech Tiup:
http://www.duke-energy.com/south-ca...ness-continuity/power-quality/tech-tip-03.asp

Simply view Dranetz waveforms before posting a myth. Leftmost is 'clean' power obviously from AC mains. Everything else (quite 'dirty') is what a "typical" UPS outputs.

Bottom line: Why can power from a UPS be so crappy? Because all electronics are so robust; converting even 'dirtiest' power from a UPS into ideal rock stable DC voltages. What does the best 'cleaning' of crappy UPS power? Circuits routinely existing in electronics. Advertisers fear knowledge of where 'cleaner' power is located. Please view waveforms in that Tech Tip to create fear.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,937
12,384
126
www.anyf.ca
AC mains is generally clean, but it depends how you define clean. Yes there will be some ripples, and once in a while there may be complete brownouts or flickers, but it's a pure sine wave that most UPSes do not replicate as well. The square wave crap the cheaper UPSes put out is garbage and will damage your components. In the case of a PC the PSU will take the biggest hit and should be able to filter it out so the rest of the components don't see a difference. DC is DC. As long as the DC voltage is constant, you're good.

Whenever I decide to build a dual conversion UPS where stuff runs on the inverter at all times, I definitely want to go pure sine wave. Idealy, two inverters that have the ability to stay in sync but for home that may be overkill.
 

westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
517
0
71
The square wave crap the cheaper UPSes put out is garbage and will damage your components.
Put numbers to what is perfectly good power for electronics. This UPS is "typical". Its 120 volt output is 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts.

BTW, the manufacturer calls that a sine wave output. He did not lie.

If a cheap UPS does damage, then a part damaged by a UPS can be defined. Even 40 years ago, 120 volt electronics were designed to make 600 volt spikes irrelevant. Today's electronics are even more robust.

What part is damaged? And why has that UPS company not been sued into non-existence due to damaged electronics?
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,937
12,384
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www.anyf.ca
Actually today's electronics are much more sensitive. Smaller parts, more parts, all cramped into smaller spaces. Just look at how often people get DOAs compared to before. Some of these fragile electronics don't even make it past the consumer shipping phase.

It would be fun to actually own an oscilloscope to check the output of different UPSes though. But if I had that money, I'd rather buy myself a fully loaded pickup truck.

Some of the newer PSUs with PFC or whatever it's called have crap tolerance too, a bit of a slight disturbance to the sine and they drop.
 

Blain

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
23,643
3
81
Yes. Without exception, every mains supply I have tested has been of excellent stability and purity, and essentially free of damaging voltage spikes.
Two quick questions...
* What instrumentation did you use to determine power quality?
* Over how long a period of time was your testing conducted?
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
14
81
Two quick questions...
* What instrumentation did you use to determine power quality?
* Over how long a period of time was your testing conducted?

It's a home-made power analyser, which measures voltage, harmonic distortion and THD, and IEC flicker. It compares surprisingly well to proper calibrated test equipment.

The only thing is that it's bandwidth for ultra-fast transients is limited (so microsecond range transients won't be picked up, but generally they don't get very far down mains wiring due to parasitic inductance) and I haven't played with the proper equipment enough to know how sensitive these devices are to it either.

I've tested each supply for several weeks. All supplies were well within specification - never exceeding maximum voltage, and voltage drop (even starting an AC unit on an extension cord) was within the specified range, with harmonic distortion well under 5% most of the time, and usually under 3%, with one supply usually under 2%. I should point out that these are all domestic supplies in residential areas (apart from one supply which was in a mixed use area, near a shopping mall and in the same building as a supermarket - this one actually had the cleanest supply, apart from the flicker - but see below for the cause of that).

One supply did come very close to violating the "flicker" specification, but this is more a human comfort thing, and is related to frequent, but small variations in supply voltage causing subtle, but annoying, changes in the brightness of incandescent lamps *. The instrument was able to reveal the cause as 3 steel-making electric arc furnaces in the city (I was able to work out it was 3 as each furnace had it's own distinct cycle time and flicker contribution).

* - Flicker is calculated using a complex algorithm which takes into account a physical model of an incandescent lamp filament and it's thermal mass; physiological sensitivity of the human eye to changes in light brighness; and a psychological model to estimate the annoyance of the flicker.
 
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westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
517
0
71
It would be fun to actually own an oscilloscope to check the output of different UPSes though. But if I had that money, I'd rather buy myself a fully loaded pickup truck.
To know this stuff means you were using an oscilloscope (or equivalent) before posting. Or viewed Dranetz waveforms at:
http://www.duke-energy.com/south-ca...ness-continuity/power-quality/tech-tip-03.asp

Hearsay is subjective. Akin to lying. If a UPS is causing damage, then cite the damaged part. A hard fact. If semiconductors are more sensitive, then cite that number from datasheets. One who has and uses oscilloscopes seems to know differently.

But again, if you know better, then cite any of the so many sources that say otherwise. Explain why waveforms provided by a utility in Tech Tips show something different. So that discussion is powered by facts; not rumor.

What happens to some electronics with advanced active PFC? It does not power on if active PFC is confused by 'dirty' power. No damage anywhere. Why are you listing that as an example of hardware damage?

Some UPS manufacturers, now gone, output power TOO clean - and therefore unnecessarily expensive. Where are these UPS companies forced out of business by damaging electronics? What is this part damaged by 'dirty' power from a UPS? Where are the datasheets that explain less robust electronics? They exist in speculation. But where in reality?

A 'typical' UPS provides temporary and 'dirty' power.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
I normally use APC Smart UPS's.

The answers in this thread are mind boggling that wall power is always perfect.
 

pitz

Senior member
Feb 11, 2010
461
0
0
I don't run a UPS, but probably should. I'm not at all worried about damage from voltage problems, for the reasons given on this thread (my electricity is mostly underground from the substation, and high voltage spikes do not travel well in underground wires -- hence the electric company has MOV's in tons of places in the network).

What I do worry about is data loss -- shut down a machine at an innappropriate time in its operating cycle, and it can certainly knacker up the filesystem. Especially if write caching is involved.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Actually today's electronics are much more sensitive. Smaller parts, more parts, all cramped into smaller spaces. Just look at how often people get DOAs compared to before. Some of these fragile electronics don't even make it past the consumer shipping phase.

It would be fun to actually own an oscilloscope to check the output of different UPSes though. But if I had that money, I'd rather buy myself a fully loaded pickup truck.

Some of the newer PSUs with PFC or whatever it's called have crap tolerance too, a bit of a slight disturbance to the sine and they drop.

An old $100 25 MHz analog Tek would be just fine for that.
 

unr3al

Senior member
Jun 10, 2008
214
1
81
www.link-up.co.za
Boy haven't been on this forum in AGES. Comes from sporadic internet connections... I'm running a 650VA UPS I got from work. They thought it was broken, so I decided to "liberate" it. LoL keeps my PC going until I can shut it down, when the power goes. Which is more often than I would like, in this rural country...
 

Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
485
126
Whether utility power is clean or not is not really the issue at hand.
In an ideal environment utility power is going to be a clean sinuous signal at 50/60Hz depending on your location. Whether you have a customer nearby with arc furnaces running on 50MVA 33kV feeds - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijWwfcw0FOo - (which will wreak havoc) or loads in your facilities doing similar - there will be issues to start with.

Most appliances and devices are designed with a tolerance to hash, spikes, harmonic distortion and other anomalies. These should be reduced whenever possible especially when sensitive devices are in use or in areas where lack of noise "riding" the waves is paramount such as recording studios.

There are several ways to combat this which can be expensive. Yes it's always about the price, right? One should never expect a $50 UPS made in China to correct issues with power on a particular circuit. An electrician is usually retained to make sure the physical layers are adequate - performing wiring polarity tests, proper ground and voltage drop with a momentary load test. If everything passes here and there is still a problem then the line quality monitors (Dranetz) are brought in typically for a few days to a week or more to monitor quality over a period of time to nail the culprit.

In many office environments a long run with a laser workgroup printer, for example, can cause many headaches! Look at the waveform on a circuit that has one while its fuser heater circuits are active. The sudden dips in voltage will always trigger a UPS transfer function. These low end UPS' IMO have too short of a duration before switching back to mains power and their relays can be heard rapidly cycling back and forth under these conditions. This hysterical output is very challenging to many switching mode power supplies (SMPS) to deal with and can result in sporadic reboots or locking of PC loads, etc.

The problem with the entry level - very entry level of UPS - as I mentioned previously is they are just inadequate for protection in such a common scenario. No true power conditioning is present. An LC hash filter and MOV is NOT power conditioning! Most have too high a clamping value in the first place and use cheaper components of what's used in decent PC PSU on the input side!

If you need true power conditioning a ferroresonant transformer will provide proper regulation and superior filtering. Your loads are essentially isolated from the mains at all times. There is also zero transfer time to inverter with UPS that employ this method.

The waveform in the previously mentioned article is downright scary and if I saw something like that I would prefer to run right off the mains until it was corrected!

To recap when dealing with "dirty" power the culprit is not the power source itself but things that happen along the way getting it to your load! Often wiring faults and chosen conductor type can have serious impacts on power quality as well.

Since flicker was also mentioned I will add that newer types of lighting including self ballasted compact fluorescent lighting using high frequency switching as well as LED lighting often are much more stable and thus more immune to power glitches (in regards to intensity shifts) than incandescent lighting. One can clearly see this by plugging a lamp into an outlet with a laser printer. If the lamp has a 60W tungsten lamp the flickering will be much more prominent over a CFL or LED light in the identical scenario. It also depends on the lamp driver too. An electromagnetically ballasted fluorescent lamp has worse flicker due to its quicker fall time. A filament lamp tends to be buffered as its filament output decays slower as it cools. When traffic lamps are in flash mode one can immediately identify LED vs. Tungsten signal lamps from this effect. LEDs extinguish nearly instantly.

Consequently an LED driven off nothing but a resistor and half wave rectifier will flicker quite badly on AC mains power particularly at 50Hz.
 

westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
517
0
71
I work with CMOS so I guess I have high standards for what constitutes "clean".
I worked with CMOS about 1970. Back then, CMOS (ie 4000 series) was far less tolerant. I know about dirty power. Noise could even cause hardware damage. No longer a problem. Today's electronics are far more robust.

Facilities that need cleaner power do not use a plug-in UPS. They use a UPS that can do more than just provide temporary power. That means a UPS located at the service entrance. And costs many $thousands.

Superior solutions, adjacent to electronics and to address 'noise', are series mode filters. Not a UPS.

If a laser printer is causing a harmful voltage drop, then building wiring is inadequate. Fix the defective wiring. Meanwhile, an adjacent UPS is often so poorly designed as to chatter relays - as described. Voltage was more than sufficient. But the cheap UPS will even 'chatter' because another (trivial) anomaly has confused its control circuits. Many assume otherwise only because a cheap UPS switched to batteries.

alkemyst - nobody said AC receptacle power is perfect. But it looks perfect compared to power output by a 'typical' UPS. Most AC mains anomalies are made irrelevant by how electronics are designed. Some of the 'dirtiest' power comes from that UPS - not from AC mains.

What is sufficient voltage for all electronics? Even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. How often is a Laser printer dimming lights anywhere near that much? If it is, then an informed building owner immediately starts looking for the wiring defect that might also be a threat to human life. Many reasons are trivial (ie improperly used wire nuts). But the rare and serious threat is why that wiring defect is always located and fixed.

An adjacent and typical UPS has one function. To provide temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Why 'dirty'? Because all electronics are so robust as to even make irrelevant 'incandescent bulbs dimmed to 50% intensity'.

Rubycon provides many (and good) facts. Relevant are limitations of a typical UPS. OP's question is about the typical (adjacent) UPS. It does not solve other anomalies. It only provides temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Solving those other anomalies is best done elsewhere by other devices. Many are already solved inside appliances. Because today's electronics are so robust. So robust as to even make that 'dirtiest' UPS power irrelevant. Many times more robust than CMOS design 40 years ago.
 
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