Do you think Kaeppernick's not standing up for the anthem has more to do with

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OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
so why dosnt he stand to give honor to the rights this country has given him to protest. or is that just to stupid?
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
I think it's that new haircut. It puts too much weight on his spinal column, messing what little intelligence he had.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,098
126
who said its not?
I'm getting the vibe from some posts here and on other sites that there's a nebulous "they" who think he shouldn't have the right to protest and there's a large group of people posting cutesy low-resolution images with text claiming that "they" are trying to destroy his rights. Whether "they" exist or not, it seems prudent to put that disclaimer up front lest I be instantly grouped with "them".
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Imagine the grief these guys would get today...

Imagine the grief they actually got back then. The white Australian was not only exiled from his own Olympic team, he was exiled from Australian society as well, including by the government.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,001
126

If you claim you understand freedom and criticize people who exercise their freedom to call for the punishment of an asshole acting like an asshole just go ahead and admit that you have no idea what the concept of freedom is.

It is you who have no idea what the concept of freedom is. It's a two way street, he has the freedom to act like a POS prima donna clueless fucktard and we have the freedom to demand that a corporation (the NFL) hold its employees (the POS prima donna fucktard) to certain standards of behavior or we will stop patronizing that business. Freedom abounds, he used his, now we can use ours and eventually the NFL will use theirs. That's how freedom works.
 
Reactions: TeeJay1952

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
I think his way of protesting police brutality, etc by not standing up for the national anthem is retarded. How is that solving anything? If he really gave 2 craps, he'd be out donating to applicable charities, mentoring the youth, and drawing attention to that, rather than himself.

Never mind that it's disrespectful; lots of people and groups do shitty disrespectful stuff to protest. They have the right to do so. It's merely just the fact that somehow this is somehow going to accomplish something. Setting a crappy example to young kids who look up to him.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,651
100
91
It's the same tired BLM nonsense where people blame someone else for a group's problems, instead of looking at the actions of the group that caused their problems.
And if you protest loud enough you just might be able to silence the protests lol.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
I get the feeling that a lot of this has to do with the unwarranted, total and unquestionable respect that our country's core patriots demand to be heaped upon any and all of the most tangential symbols of military attachment.

A soldier is a person that can and should deserve much respect, but respect is only ever earned. I thought mature, disciplined soldiers understood this? This constant and mind-numbingly petty claim about what some asshole does in regard to a flag that "you fought and died to protect" is the basest kind of jingoistic pablum that really only works on the type of brainless yahoos that decided they really had no other choice in life but to die for a nebulous idea. That isn't really the type of choice that deserves respect from anyone--it's the choice you made and while I think many people make a great choice for joining the military, choosing to do so to "defend a flag" is utter nonsense.

I'm glad you're proud--fine. But why should anyone put the soldier that led a few battalions through the shit on multiple tours in the same light as some yahoo that opted for back line IT support, with a camouflaged hat--just because? I see that crap all the time.

Don't tell me the complaints directed at Coppernickle have nothing to do with military shaft-stroking and butthurtness--because it absolutely does. Maybe he should have chosen to lodge his complaint in the lunch time Chik Fil-A line?
 
Reactions: KMFJD

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
I think his way of protesting police brutality, etc by not standing up for the national anthem is retarded. How is that solving anything? If he really gave 2 craps, he'd be out donating to applicable charities, mentoring the youth, and drawing attention to that, rather than himself.

Never mind that it's disrespectful; lots of people and groups do shitty disrespectful stuff to protest. They have the right to do so. It's merely just the fact that somehow this is somehow going to accomplish something. Setting a crappy example to young kids who look up to him.

Except, this kind of thing actually seems to work. Remember the stupid ice bucket challenge and the exact same criticisms that you are making here, that everyone made about that?

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/als-and-the-ice-bucket-challenge
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
If you claim you understand freedom and criticize people who exercise their freedom to call for the punishment of an asshole acting like an asshole just go ahead and admit that you have no idea what the concept of freedom is.

It is you who have no idea what the concept of freedom is. It's a two way street, he has the freedom to act like a POS prima donna clueless fucktard and we have the freedom to demand that a corporation (the NFL) hold its employees (the POS prima donna fucktard) to certain standards of behavior or we will stop patronizing that business. Freedom abounds, he used his, now we can use ours and eventually the NFL will use theirs. That's how freedom works.

So, basically you just want him punished and anyone who defends his right to protest to STFU? It's your way or the highway? Or both?

It's great to try to force respect on others isn't it?

Personally, I agree with this guy.

http://www.attn.com/stories/11050/m...acebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=internal

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

I've been away from the internet all day.

I came home from a family picnic on the Blackwater River to find my inbox, as usual, overflowing like a ripe Port-O-Pottie.

One of the first messages I read was about 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick, quoted above, who last Friday night at the beginning of a preseason game suddenly decided to become the most hated man in America du jour by deliberately not standing for the National Anthem.

Yes, that's right, a football player didn't stand for the National Anthem.

As you know, this means Kaepernick is scum, a horrible human being, a likely member of ISIS, a Muslim terrorist, a black thug, a communist, a socialist (and not the cool share your weed Bernie Sanders kind of socialist but the Red Brigade kind of Socialist who sleeps under a poster of Chairman Mao), a radical, a Black Panther, and he probably has Fidel Castro's phone number in his contact favorites.

Yeah. Okay.

I answered the message and went on to the next one.

The next message was about Kaepernick. As was the next one. And the next one. And...

They all begin pretty much the same way: Jim, AS A VETERAN, what do you think about this? Well?

Let me answer all the messages at once
__________

AS A VETERAN, what do I think about Colin Kaepernick's decision to sit during the National Anthem?

As a veteran?

Very well, as a veteran then, this is what I believe:

The very first thing I learned in the military is this: Respect is a two-way street. If you want respect, true respect, sincere respect, then you have to GIVE IT.

If you want respect, you have to do the things necessary to earn it each and every single day. There are no short cuts and no exceptions.

Respect cannot be compelled.

Respect cannot be bought.

Respect cannot be inherited.

Respect cannot be demanded at the muzzle of a gun or by beating it into somebody or by shaming them into it. Can not. You might get what you think is respect, but it's not. It's only the appearance of respect. It's fear, it's groveling, it's not respect. Far, far too many people both in and out of the military, people who should emphatically know better, do not understand this simple fact: there is an enormous difference between fear and respect.

Respect has to be earned.

Respect. Has. To. Be. Earned.

Respect has to be earned every day, by every word, by every action.

It takes a lifetime of words and deeds to earn respect.

It takes only one careless word, one thoughtless action, to lose it.

You have to be worthy of respect. You have to live up to, or at least do your best to live up to, those high ideals -- the ones America supposedly embodies, that shining city on the hill, that exceptional nation we talk about, yes, that one. To earn respect you have to be fair. You have to have courage. You must embrace reason. You have to know when to hold the line and when to compromise. You have to take responsibility and hold yourself accountable. You have to keep your word. You have to give respect, true respect, to get it back.

There are no short cuts. None.

Now, any veteran worth the label should know that. If they don't, then likely they weren't much of a soldier to begin with and you can tell them I said so.

IF Kaepernick doesn't feel his country respects him enough for him to respect it in return, well, then you can't MAKE him respect it.

You can not make him respect it.

If you try to force a man to respect you, you'll only make him respect you less.

With threats, by violence, by shame, you can maybe compel Kaepernick to stand up and put his hand over his heart and force him to be quiet. You might.

But that's not respect.

It's only the illusion of respect.

You might force this man into the illusion of respect. You might. Would you be satisfied then? Would that make you happy? Would that make you respect your nation, the one which forced a man into the illusion of respect, a nation of little clockwork patriots all pretending satisfaction and respect? Is that what you want? If THAT's what matters to you, the illusion of respect, then you're not talking about freedom or liberty. You're not talking about the United States of America. Instead you're talking about every dictatorship from the Nazis to North Korea where people are lined up and MADE to salute with the muzzle of a gun pressed to the back of their necks.

That, that illusion of respect, is not why I wore a uniform.

That's not why I held up my right hand and swore the oath and put my life on the line for my country.

That, that illusion of respect, is not why I am a veteran.

Not so a man should be forced to show respect he doesn't feel.

That's called slavery and I have no respect for that at all.

If Americans want this man to respect America, then first they must respect him.

If America wants the world's respect, it must be worthy of respect.

America must be worthy of respect. Torture, rendition, indefinite detention, unarmed black men shot down in the street every day, poverty, inequality, voter suppression, racism, bigotry in every form, obstructionism, blind patriotism, NONE of those things are worthy of respect from anybody -- least of all an American.

But doesn't it also mean that if Kaepernick wants respect, he must give it first? Give it to America? Be worthy of respect himself? Stand up, shut up, and put his hand over his heart before Old Glory?

No. It doesn't.

Respect doesn't work that way.

Power flows from positive to negative. Electricity flows from greater potential to lesser.

The United States isn't a person, it's a vast construct, a framework of law and order and civilization designed to protect the weak from the ruthless and after more than two centuries of revision and refinement it exists to provide in equal measure for all of us the opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The United States is POWER.

All the power rests with America. Just as it does in the military chain of command. And like that chain of command, like the electrical circuit described above, respect must flow from greater to lesser FIRST before it can return.

To you the National Anthem means one thing, to Kaepernick it means something else. We are all shaped and defined by our experiences and we see the world through our own eyes. That's freedom. That's liberty. The right to believe differently. The right to protest as you will. The right to demand better. The right to believe your country can BE better, that it can live up to its sacred ideals, and the right to loudly note that it has NOT. The right to use your voice, your actions, to bring attention to the things you believe in. The right to want more for others, freedom, liberty, justice, equality, and RESPECT.

A true veteran might not agree with Colin Kaepernick, but a true veteran would fight to the death to protect his right to say what he believes.

You don't like what Kaepernick has to say? Then prove him wrong, BE the nation he can respect.

It's really just that simple.
 
Last edited:

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,098
126
Don't tell me the complaints directed at Coppernickle have nothing to do with military shaft-stroking and butthurtness--because it absolutely does. Maybe he should have chosen to lodge his complaint in the lunch time Chik Fil-A line?

It definitely does, but that could happen with any strongly held cultural norm. Knowing how important it is to the majority of people in the stadium and watching the game makes it a jerk move. If he didn't observe a moment of silence for victims of 9/11 or wore tie-dye to a funeral, or refused to cover his head at some religious event, those would all be jerk moves. Even if he didn't care about 9/11, hated the person who just died, or had fundamental issues with the religion, it's still considered "proper etiquette" to observe the norms of those in your immediate surroundings when they're strongly tied to those norms.

If Putin died tomorrow and I was in Moscow, I wouldn't be jumping up and down like an idiot, even though I disagree with virtually every policy of his. I'd silently bow my head as the hearse passed or whatever, and know that if I really wanted to protest his policies, I should enable communication and dialogue so that those with whom I disagreed could see my arguments presented rationally.

Kaepernick, in my mind and the minds of many others, isn't doing that.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,001
126
So, basically you just want him punished and anyone who defends his right to protest to STFU? It's your way or the highway? Or both?

I want you to grow a brain, but since that seems unlikely, I want the NFL to have the FREEDOM to discipline employees who hurt the corporate image. Is Colin's FREEDOM to be a douche somehow more important than the NFL's FREEDOM to demand that he not act like a douche while on the clock? You seem to adhere to the clueless notion that FREEDOM is the ability to act any way you want without repercussion.

An NFL player has the legal FREEDOM to not stand for the anthem, that's why Kaepernick is not in jail or facing legal charges. THAT is what FREEDOM means. It does not mean that he gets to do whatever the fuck he wants without consequences. Kaepernick exercised his FREEDOM to not stand up, I exercise my freedom to criticize him and the NFL will exercise their FREEDOM to hold employees to certain standards of behavior and to refrain from behavior which hurts the league. It's that fucking simple, sorry I couldn't break it down into monosyllabic words for you to understand it more easily. We all have FREEDOM and his does not trump ours.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
I want you to grow a brain, but since that seems unlikely, I want the NFL to have the FREEDOM to discipline employees who hurt the corporate image. Is Colin's FREEDOM to be a douche somehow more important than the NFL's FREEDOM to demand that he not act like a douche while on the clock? You seem to adhere to the clueless notion that FREEDOM is the ability to act any way you want without repercussion.

An NFL player has the legal FREEDOM to not stand for the anthem, that's why Kaepernick is not in jail or facing legal charges. THAT is what FREEDOM means. It does not mean that he gets to do whatever the fuck he wants without consequences. Kaepernick exercised his FREEDOM to not stand up, I exercise my freedom to criticize him and the NFL will exercise their FREEDOM to hold employees to certain standards of behavior and to refrain from behavior which hurts the league. It's that fucking simple, sorry I couldn't break it down into monosyllabic words for you to understand it more easily. We all have FREEDOM and his does not trump ours.

I'd be fine with the NFL doing nothing at all.

So, take all your faux rage and turn that frown upside down dude.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,615
3,467
136
I'd be fine with the NFL doing nothing at all.

So, take all your faux rage and turn that frown upside down dude.

How many times did Marshawn Lynch get fined for not talking to reporters or wearing the wrong color shoes? Meanwhile he'd spend his own money to fly kids up from his neighborhood in Oakland to Seahawks practices every week to show them what hard work can achieve and there are many options besides gangs and crime.

Who do you honestly think is doing more to resolve racial issues in this country?
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
How many times did Marshawn Lynch get fined for not talking to reporters or wearing the wrong color shoes? Meanwhile he'd spend his own money to fly kids up from his neighborhood in Oakland to Seahawks practices every week to show them what hard work can achieve and there are many options besides gangs and crime.

Who do you honestly think is doing more to resolve racial issues in this country?

I thought that was ridiculous too. The fuck do I care if he talks to reporters or what color shoes he wears?

The way some of you talk you'd be okay with beating someone up at every sporting event who didn't stand or take their hat off or put their hand over their heart or sing with enough gusto during the national anthem.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
I want you to grow a brain, but since that seems unlikely, I want the NFL to have the FREEDOM to discipline employees who hurt the corporate image. Is Colin's FREEDOM to be a douche somehow more important than the NFL's FREEDOM to demand that he not act like a douche while on the clock? You seem to adhere to the clueless notion that FREEDOM is the ability to act any way you want without repercussion.

An NFL player has the legal FREEDOM to not stand for the anthem, that's why Kaepernick is not in jail or facing legal charges. THAT is what FREEDOM means. It does not mean that he gets to do whatever the fuck he wants without consequences. Kaepernick exercised his FREEDOM to not stand up, I exercise my freedom to criticize him and the NFL will exercise their FREEDOM to hold employees to certain standards of behavior and to refrain from behavior which hurts the league. It's that fucking simple, sorry I couldn't break it down into monosyllabic words for you to understand it more easily. We all have FREEDOM and his does not trump ours.

Except the NFL has and/or continues to operate as some sort of quasi-nonprofit/corporate entity, and thus it really isnt any type of private organization.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,615
3,467
136
I thought that was ridiculous too. The fuck do I care if he talks to reporters or what color shoes he wears?

The way some of you talk you'd be okay with beating someone up at every sporting event who didn't stand or take their hat off or put their hand over their heart or sing with enough gusto during the national anthem.

I don't care what the backup clipboard holder for a doormat team does (or some random guy in the stands). I personally think he could have come up with a way to make his point without alienating the people he's trying to communicate with, but I'm sure he thought it through.
 
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