Do you think there will be any negative effects of #metoo for women?

[werepossum]

I know we've had previous discussion about how highly you hold the rule of law, but it's important to recognize the failings of the rule of law. None of these guys are facing criminal charges, and all of them have had overwhelming amounts of evidence against them, they would lose in civil court.

If someone is being wrongly accused of sexual misconduct they still possess the right to file a civil suit against the accuser (like Schumer is doing) to clear their name. That has not changed and never will change, it's one of the great things about this country.

The truth is that it's hard for women to not want revenge when the legal system built for and by men makes it near impossible to get justice for the actions of men. Innocent until proven guilty applies only in a court of law, not out in the real world. Everyone knows the kind of men these guys are, we've worked side by side with them in the past, and some of us under them. The culture of a male-centric society gives them the feeling of superiority and lets them believe they can act with impunity and disrespect all the women around them because none of the women can prove a thing, and they're right.

Unfortunately this isn't an easy problem to tackle, the only viable solution is for all women to start recording their conversations and wear rear facing body cameras to catch any gropes that happen. Would you advise your daughter/sister/friends to do this to respect due process?

Granted, there is some truth here, but there's a lot of bullshit too. You are complaining about the inability to convict with a woman's testimony over a man's testimony, absent any evidence, but that is the essence of Western society - criminal conviction must be beyond a reasonable doubt. A woman merely claiming to have been sexually harassed in no way meets that criterion. That isn't evidence of a male-dominated society, it's evidence of a fair society, and ideally it applies to ALL crimes. Would you be equally copacetic about the prospect of being convicted of any crime without evidence merely because a man said it was so?

If a man and woman are equally inebriated and have sex, the woman reserves the absolute right to have the man convicted of rape. Ditto with date rape; a woman retains the ability to let days go by before deciding that sex was rape, and absent a very good lawyer, there's a decent chance the man will be convicted merely on her testimony. It's true that women still have some disadvantages in our legal system, but women also enjoy some advantages.

 

[werepossum]

I've never faulted anyone for the attention they give me or comments they make to me when I choose to wear something revealing but BUT it is NEVER and invitation to touch me in any way. I either wear revealing clothing FOR attention OR when I played in a pool league, a distraction. Worked beautifully at times but most of the time I played serious players that were only distracted between shots. ... regardless, I looked damn fine. With that said, it's truly disturbing some of the things men will allow to come out of their mouths. Being a funny girl though, I almost always get one up on 'em so, level playing field I guess. (*Vulgarity isn't my thing no matter how vulgar some men can be but I absolutely can be inappropriate enough to top 'em or stop 'em. My female friends benefit from having me around as well.) Any way, yes most women wearing revealing clothing do want attention they just don't want it to be creepy/scary and they want to feel safe. I've never been able to figure out why some men think revealing clothing is an unspoken permission to make a woman feel threatened and unsafe. It's certainly not attractive (that's true for almost all women). In fact it's gag inducing.

Well said. Men take a note: A woman in revealing clothing is issuing an invitation, but not necessarily to you.

 

[Younigue]

Well said. Men take a note: A woman in revealing clothing is issuing an invitation, but not necessarily to you.

An invitation to be noticed.

 

[werepossum]

An invitation to be noticed.

Yes, noticed in an appropriate fashion. Hopefully by the desired parties.

 

[1prophet]

Granted, there is some truth here, but there's a lot of bullshit too. You are complaining about the inability to convict with a woman's testimony over a man's testimony, absent any evidence, but that is the essence of Western society - criminal conviction must be beyond a reasonable doubt. A woman merely claiming to have been sexually harassed in no way meets that criterion. That isn't evidence of a male-dominated society, it's evidence of a fair society, and ideally it applies to ALL crimes. Would you be equally copacetic about the prospect of being convicted of any crime without evidence merely because a man said it was so?

If a man and woman are equally inebriated and have sex, the woman reserves the absolute right to have the man convicted of rape. Ditto with date rape; a woman retains the ability to let days go by before deciding that sex was rape, and absent a very good lawyer, there's a decent chance the man will be convicted merely on her testimony. It's true that women still have some disadvantages in our legal system, but women also enjoy some advantages.

And if a man or woman are equally inebriated and get behind the wheel of a car should only the man be held responsible for driving while intoxicated while the women is let off because of her inebriated state not be held responsible for driving while intoxicated?

 

[Victorian Gray]

And if a man or woman are equally inebriated and get behind the wheel of a car should only the man be held responsible for driving while intoxicated while the women is let off because of her inebriated state not be held responsible for driving while intoxicated?

Are they both fucking the car?

 

[Ancalagon44]

Getting away with it is different from knowing you're being creepy. Be mad at the model for being good looking. Ya know, if ya just have to be mad at someone.

You're missing the point. Creepy depends on context. A male model with a Ferarri can do something and have it not be called creepy, while if a bald overweight deadbeat dad does it, it is creepy. Same action, different context.

There was a post I saw of a guy who created a fake male model tinder account. He could basically tell women he wanted to rape them and they loved him for it.

 

[Younigue]

You're missing the point. Creepy depends on context. A male model with a Ferarri can do something and have it not be called creepy, while if a bald overweight deadbeat dad does it, it is creepy. Same action, different context.

There was a post I saw of a guy who created a fake male model tinder account. He could basically tell women he wanted to rape them and they loved him for it.

Nah, I understood you. There's no easy answer except if a woman is not interested, leave her be even if that means you have to sit by and watch a man behave exactly as you would have. All any one can do is hold themselves accountable and to a high standard. It's not for you to turn envy in to 'yeah but...'. Accept the rejection. A woman must do the same even when they know they're better suited for a guy then the eye candy they prefer.

 

[werepossum]

And if a man or woman are equally inebriated and get behind the wheel of a car should only the man be held responsible for driving while intoxicated while the women is let off because of her inebriated state not be held responsible for driving while intoxicated?

No, but I don't think that's a thing. Pretty sure women are treated exactly like men in DUI. Maybe individual officers give women (or just pretty women) a break, but that goes both ways, in spades. I knew a judge who refused to grant divorces, period. The only one he ever granted when my wife was working was to a woman whose husband literally beat the crap out of her, to the point of being hospitalized for a couple weeks IIRC, and he told that man "Son, all I can tell you is you're gonna have to woo her back." There are areas of law where women are systematically disadvantaged as well as areas where they are systematically advantaged, but I don't think either extends beyond male-female relationship or abuse areas. One of our resident bandits of the bar could give an informed opinion if they wish; mine's merely anecdotal from observation.

 

[werepossum]

Nah, I understood you. There's no easy answer except if a woman is not interested, leave her be even if that means you have to sit by and watch a man behave exactly as you would have. All any one can do is hold themselves accountable and to a high standard. It's not for you to turn envy in to 'yeah but...'. Accept the rejection. A woman must do the same even when they know they're better suited for a guy then the eye candy they prefer.

That is spot-on. Nobody owes you anything in this world beyond common human decency and politeness.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Looks like #metoo just claimed its first female political victim.

Kansas Democrat Andrea Ramsey just suspended her campaign over a sexual harassment case dismissed and settled over a decade ago.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/15/polit...ey-congress-race-sexual-harassment/index.html

This story is a gender reversal of the scenarios previously discussed yet I still don't think this is justice.

 

[jackstar7]

Looks like #metoo just claimed its first female political victim.

Kansas Democrat Andrea Ramsey just suspended her campaign over a sexual harassment case dismissed and settled over a decade ago.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/15/polit...ey-congress-race-sexual-harassment/index.html

This story is a gender reversal of the scenarios previously discussed yet I still don't think this is justice.

Please explain the injustice here.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Please explain the injustice here.

Sexual harassment case dismissed and settlement reached by Ramsey's company, which in and of itself is not an admission of guilt.

Ramsey was competing for a competitive Congressional seat. Since allegations are enough to sink a campaign, she stepped down.

What did she do wrong?

 

[jackstar7]

Sexual harassment case dismissed and settlement reached by Ramsey's company, which in and of itself is not an admission of guilt.

Ramsey was competing for a competitive Congressional seat. Since allegations are enough to sink a campaign, she stepped down.

What did she do wrong?

You'd have to ask her that.

 

[Starbuck1975]

You'd have to ask her that.

The mob never cares what the accused has to say

 

[jackstar7]

The mob never cares what the accused has to say

She made the choice to suspend her campaign though, right?

Actions matter, too.

 

[Starbuck1975]

She made the choice to suspend her campaign though, right?

Actions matter, too.

She made the decision to initiate her campaign because just a few short months ago, there wasn't a media or political hysteria over allegations of sexual misconduct.

Al Franken "made the decision" to step down too.

Now that the Democrats have made mob rule part of their plank, there is no longer room for rationale discussion on context or tolerance for forgiveness.

 

[Commodus]

She made the decision to initiate her campaign because just a few short months ago, there wasn't a media or political hysteria over allegations of sexual misconduct.

Al Franken "made the decision" to step down too.

Now that the Democrats have made mob rule part of their plank, there is no longer room for rationale discussion on context or tolerance for forgiveness.

It's not a hysteria. It's that people in power (predominantly men) have been pulling this crap for decades, taking advantage of their positions to keep victims silent, and now that bubble has popped. While I do think there should be some room for forgiveness, we also need to haul people out on the carpet -- and many of the perpetrators are clearly unrepentant or issue non-apologies (in the "I'm sorry if you felt it was wrong" vein).

 

[jmagg]

Franken was the sacrificial cow.

 

[Starbuck1975]

It's not a hysteria. It's that people in power (predominantly men) have been pulling this crap for decades, taking advantage of their positions to keep victims silent, and now that bubble has popped. While I do think there should be some room for forgiveness, we also need to haul people out on the carpet -- and many of the perpetrators are clearly unrepentant or issue non-apologies (in the "I'm sorry if you felt it was wrong" vein).

The irony to all of this is that had Clinton won, the bubble would still very much be in tact. This is a movement born of frustration, now tainted by political opportunism.

I think the time horizon of male dominance is more like centuries, not decades. The idea of social justice or even equality of the sexes is new relative to the evolutionary and biological elements of power and dominance. However, the power born of affluence is also an artificial construct that has far too much influence on our society, from distribution of wealth to justice, "affluenza" being a notable example.

People tend to be unrepentant if they haven't done anything wrong.

Hauling people out? That is a hysterical and McCarthyist solution that will temporarily address but never truly unroot the underlying systemic problem.

 

[brycejones]

Looks like #metoo just claimed its first female political victim.

Kansas Democrat Andrea Ramsey just suspended her campaign over a sexual harassment case dismissed and settled over a decade ago.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/15/polit...ey-congress-race-sexual-harassment/index.html

This story is a gender reversal of the scenarios previously discussed yet I still don't think this is justice.

So what is your proposed "solution"?

 

[realibrad]

It's not a hysteria. It's that people in power (predominantly men) have been pulling this crap for decades, taking advantage of their positions to keep victims silent, and now that bubble has popped. While I do think there should be some room for forgiveness, we also need to haul people out on the carpet -- and many of the perpetrators are clearly unrepentant or issue non-apologies (in the "I'm sorry if you felt it was wrong" vein).

And it will stay that way so long as there remains to things.

A. People are benefited by taking what they want regardless of the other agent.
B. Keeping said agent silent will keep the perpetrator from punishment.

I can't imagine a society that has moved beyond those two influences in my lifetime. If someone has power to take what they want as well as keeping themselves from punishment then this type of thing will happen. The acts carried out will be influenced by the desires of the individuals, but the premise will be the same.

 

[Commodus]

The irony to all of this is that had Clinton won, the bubble would still very much be in tact. This is a movement born of frustration, now tainted by political opportunism.

I think the time horizon of male dominance is more like centuries, not decades. The idea of social justice or even equality of the sexes is new relative to the evolutionary and biological elements of power and dominance. However, the power born of affluence is also an artificial construct that has far too much influence on our society, from distribution of wealth to justice, "affluenza" being a notable example.

People tend to be unrepentant if they haven't done anything wrong.

Hauling people out? That is a hysterical and McCarthyist solution that will temporarily address but never truly unroot the underlying systemic problem.

You might be right on Clinton... it's hard to say, of course, but it's hard not to be frustrated when a man becomes President after a recording emerged where he freely admitted to at least condoning (and likely perpetrating) sexual assault.

And yeah, male dominance and the sexual politics that go with it have lasted for many centuries. It's just particularly acute as of late, and in entertainment and politics it's all too easy for a man to threaten to ruin a woman's career if she doesn't give into him.

I think hauling people out (so long as there's reasonable evidence) can help address the systemic problems in one way. It confirms what women have been saying all along, but some men (particularly the MRA/Red Pill types) have denied: that yes, it is a systemic problem rather than a few bad apples... and yes, women have had to shape their behavior around the assumption that men are constantly trying to harass, grope and rape them. In a sense, it's like an alcoholic admitting that they're an alcoholic; society can't improve if it doesn't acknowledge the scope of the problem.

 

[Starbuck1975]

So what is your proposed "solution"?

Depends, we need to find common ground on the underlying problem. What problem are you trying to solve? I am trying to prevent degradation to mob rule.

 

[Younigue]

Depends, we need to find common ground on the underlying problem. What problem are you trying to solve? I am trying to prevent degradation to mob rule.

Bullshit.