Doctor refuses to do cSection, baby gets stuck...

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Apple Of Sodom

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2007
1,808
0
0
I will admit that in vitro fertilization might cause more complications than the natural way. It's always like this, nature usually does it best, because it has been automatically looking for the best solution for ages (literally).

Good post overall...

If your view is that nature always does its best, are you against all medicine and treatment?
After all, nature should be able to treat cancer and fix broken bones since nature is the best at it. Nature gave us type 1 diabetes. We are able to give diabetics a good life by providing them with insulin. Man - 1; nature - 0.

My point is that you have to choose a side. You cannot say nature does its best and we should allow it to take its course, meanwhile we take antibiotics and treat diseases, visit the doctor and undergo surgery. Which is it? I can respect your decision either way, but to me you need to make a choice (no, this is not a false dichotomy.)

What is acceptable to treat by human means and what isn't?
 

zokudu

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2009
4,364
1
81
I'm honestly torn on this one. I feel like we're missing something. At a clinic that specializes in difficult births I don't think they employ a doctor who would outright do something to harm the mother and child. There probably was negligence and it is sad that it did happen but when you specialize in taking care of only the difficult cases they are not all going to turn out amazing.

I feel like the article is obviously slanted towards the parents and it is easy to sympathize with them but I'm not going to crucify this doctor who spends their life delivering difficult children because something went wrong.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
It was not my intention to waste the rest of my day in declaring the obvious to those unwilling to contemplate reality outside their own views. I have other things to do. All I wanted to do was state my opinion since nobody else had mentioned anything similar, not get into a hate fest.

Then you should present your statements as opinion and try not to call anyone that does not recognize your opinion as fact an idiot.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
It was not my intention to waste the rest of my day in declaring the obvious to those unwilling to contemplate reality outside their own views. I have other things to do. All I wanted to do was state my opinion since nobody else had mentioned anything similar, not get into a hate fest.
You declared nothing obvious or anything with any semblance to reality. Your first post summed up stated that this was some how the parents fault.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,892
2,135
126
The suit claims that when the doctor presented the deceased infant to the parents, he had put the head back on the body and hid the neck wound. The couple’s attorney says gauze was wrapped around the baby’s neck.

WTF??????!!!!!!! Was duct tape involved?????

"There! Good as new!"
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
65
91
Good post overall...

If your view is that nature always does its best, are you against all medicine and treatment?
After all, nature should be able to treat cancer and fix broken bones since nature is the best at it. Nature gave us type 1 diabetes. We are able to give diabetics a good life by providing them with insulin. Man - 1; nature - 0.

My point is that you have to choose a side. You cannot say nature does its best and we should allow it to take its course, meanwhile we take antibiotics and treat diseases, visit the doctor and undergo surgery. Which is it? I can respect your decision either way, but to me you need to make a choice (no, this is not a false dichotomy.)

What is acceptable to treat by human means and what isn't?
The dichotomy holds true for what you said but these are 2 different things imho.
In vitro is the emulation of a natural process, done because there's no natural way to make procreation happen (b/c infertility).
I back this practice 100% because medicine caters about individual needs, and if an individual can't reproduce the natural way (the best way), the only way that remains is this one. The overall risk is minimal otherwise it wouldn't be allowed.
This is about a single individual or a couple at most, not a statistical population. That's the difference.
By curing people, straightening broken bones, killing cancer you're not trying to emulate anything, because nature does not do that naturally.
As you see, I stated straightening broken bones: medicine doesn't try to link them directly with nuts and bolts because the natural healing is perfectly good, provided that the bones are in the right position so that it doesn't heal sideways.
Still, if someone can't get them reattached, medicine has to find a way to do that.

Statistically, if you remove medicine, natural selection will make individuals better and more adapted. But western ethics are not collectivist, they're individualist. That's why we accept to give up on natural selection of man, so that at the same time each man can live his life at the most, by fixing what nature failed to do in that single individual. This means that there's no natural selection except in extreme cases (disabilities), so as a whole humans will get weaker, see worse (just think people with glasses, in the prehistorical period they'd die because unable to hunt, now they can drown in money and pussy depending on their other qualities) etc.

If I have to pick a side in your post, I'll pick medicine and individualism (which in this topic means having useless kids at greater risk, just to pursue our personal goals/biological needs, even if it means "cheating" natural selection, that's what mine and most people's ethics say, which is opposite to the ones of other guy I quoted in my previous post). I don't think it's really cheating but that other guy considered it this, and indicated this as the cause of the illness, which honestly for me is just tough luck, probabilities are just probabilities, shit happens in pregnancies, it's not a perfect process, no natural process is perfect, even though it was selected through the ages, because the world doesn't work in a deterministic way.

Note: I believe medicine can theoretically do it as well as nature, but in practice this is not gonna happen anytime soon, because it would mean that there's no basic physics research to do anymore, and that we have huge computational power to simulate biological processes, and then the technological capabilities to create the conditions artificially.
 
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Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
The world is not overpopulated. The population would be declining without immigrants in most of the western world, and it already is in places like Russia.

This doesn't make sense - please explain.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
The doctor who delivered me had to use a clamp to pull me out.They literally clamp your babies head and "help" it out of the canal.

I still have my head. But, I had bruises on my head after I plopped out..or so I've heard.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,924
12,379
126
www.anyf.ca
Wow that's terrible. I imagine even for a baby you'd have to be pulling pretty hard to rip the head right off though. What was this doctor thinking?

For some reason, it made me think of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brsI6z13Su8

And WTF did they want so long to sue anyway? They originally decided not to and now decided they could use some cash? I think it should be thrown out just on the premise that they waited that long.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
While morally the doctor may have done something wrong, and may be civilly liable as well. Criminally, the doctor did nothing wrong, and committed no crime.
 

BornStar

Diamond Member
Oct 30, 2001
4,052
1
0
With that said, with a breech birth, the doctor should have either turned the baby around for it to be born head first or performed the C-section operation. Pulling on the legs to free the head is completely irresponsible and goes against all birthing knowledge gained through thousands of years of experience.

It amazes me that the mother's birthing canal dilated enough to allow the extended stomach to pass through but then clamped back down on the baby's neck so strongly as to pull its head off.
Did you actually read the article? The baby was vertex, not breech.
 

kevman

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2001
3,548
1
81
fucking doctor. everyone puts them in such high pedestals, but it turns out that some of them are complete morons.
 
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