Does a ship's captain really need to bail out that early just to stay alive?

[DesiPower]

In the two recent cases, one off the coast of Italy and now South Korea, the ships were not that far away from the nearest shore. Help could have arrived in an hour or less. So why would the ships captain bail out so early? There was no immediate threat to their lives.

Now, by the grace of God, I have never been in any situation even remotely scary as these, but as a ships captain you would expect them to be mentally and physically strong enough and stick around a little bit longer if not till the very end. I would expect them to be knowledgeable and have enough training to know and understand which way the ship is leaning and then find the highest ground to safely stick around. Even if they are not able to help anyone they can atleast save their career and reputation. If one is scared of being lynched, well, very few people actually know the captain, they can easily hide in plane sight. They can just wait for almost everyone to leave or the ship to almost sink and then simply jump into the water and wait for help to arrive. That way it would appear that he stuck around till the end and save his job, maybe even be a hero.

 

[smackababy]

Think about it this way: stay on the boat and die, or get off the boat and live. Yeah, "going down with the ship" sounds all heroic until your ship is going down. And, those guys are pretty much just glorified bus drivers. Do you expect your bus driver to go down with their bus?

 

[DesiPower]

Think about it this way: stay on the boat and die, or get off the boat and live. Yeah, "going down with the ship" sounds all heroic until your ship is going down. And, those guys are pretty much just glorified bus drivers. Do you expect your bus driver to go down with their bus?

But that's what I am saying, chances of dying are really very slim... they are close to the coast with help on its way, all they have to do is stick around just a bit longer to save their jobs... Not panicking is all they have to do

 

[NetWareHead]

Not familiar with the Korean captain's situation but with the ship in Italy, he was villified for abandoning not only the ship but the passengers too. At the very least, maritime law mandates that the captain must stay on site and assist with evacuation. Those passengers are his responsibility. The Italian captain took the first opportunity to leave the area and left everyone to fend for themselves. There is no mandate the captain must go down with the ship.

 

[Rakehellion]

I would expect them to be knowledgeable and have enough training to know and understand which way the ship is leaning and then find the highest ground to safely stick around. Even if they are not able to help anyone they can atleast save their career and reputation.

 

[DesiPower]

Yes, this thread is just about the captain being able to save his job and reputation

 

[smackababy]

But that's what I am saying, chances of dying are really very slim... they are close to the coast with help on its way, all they have to do is stick around just a bit longer to save their jobs... Not panicking is all they have to do

How many people have died in the Korea cruise ship? The chances of dying seem pretty high for over 100 people.

 

[DesiPower]

How many people have died in the Korea cruise ship? The chances of dying seem pretty high for over 100 people.

They are in the lowest level of the ship, the cafeteria or whatever. Those who were on the top decks, specially in the bridge, were in no real danger on sinking with the ship

 

[Number1]

In the two recent cases, one off the coast of Italy and now South Korea, the ships were not that far away from the nearest shore. Help could have arrived in an hour or less. So why would the ships captain bail out so early? There was no immediate threat to their lives.

Now, by the grace of God, I have never been in any situation even remotely scary as these, but as a ships captain you would expect them to be mentally and physically strong enough and stick around a little bit longer if not till the very end. I would expect them to be knowledgeable and have enough training to know and understand which way the ship is leaning and then find the highest ground to safely stick around. Even if they are not able to help anyone they can atleast save their career and reputation. If one is scared of being lynched, well, very few people actually know the captain, they can easily hide in plane sight. They can just wait for almost everyone to leave or the ship to almost sink and then simply jump into the water and wait for help to arrive. That way it would appear that he stuck around till the end and save his job, maybe even be a hero.

Very little chance of dying? how come over 100 people died in this latest incident?

"hide in plane sight" One would think you would need an airplane in sight at all time to be able to do this effectively.

"have enough training to know and understand which way the ship is leaning and then find the highest ground to safely stick around."

what kind of training does one need to figure out which way the ship is leaning? and what does that got to do with finding the highest ground? how about just finding above water ground? or floating objects to hang on to?


Anyway, this was not one of your finest post.

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

why not leave when your chances of survival are the highest? why stick around while your chances go down?

 

[ponyo]

Think about it this way: stay on the boat and die, or get off the boat and live. Yeah, "going down with the ship" sounds all heroic until your ship is going down. And, those guys are pretty much just glorified bus drivers. Do you expect your bus driver to go down with their bus?

Captain is glorified bus driver? You know nothing.

That captain and the crew will wish they went down with the ship. Living is far worse than dying in this case. It's going to be living hell for them.

 

[NetWareHead]

Yes, this thread is just about the captain being able to save his job and reputation

You do not understand the responsibilities of a ship captain as defined by maritime law. The captain must do his earnest to save passengers and assure their safe arrival to destination. If a captain does not do this and is found to have cowardly abandoned passengers to their fate in the middle of the sea, their wont be much reputation or a job for him anywhere. He will most likely be looking at prison time.

 

[DesiPower]

why not leave when your chances of survival are the highest? why stick around while your chances go down?

That's exactly the point I am trying to debate here. The advantage of sticking around would be to save your job and career and save yourself and your family from a lifetime of humiliation.

 

[smackababy]

That's exactly the point I am trying to debate here. The advantage of sticking around would be to save your job and career and save yourself and your family from a lifetime of humiliation.

The captain of a cruise ship isn't someone trained to deal with life threatening situations and react accordingly. Expecting these guys to risk their lives, and holding them to that standard, is a bit unrealistic. These aren't firefighters or military members.

Captain is glorified bus driver? You know nothing.

That captain and the crew will wish they went down with the ship. Living is far worse than dying in this case. It's going to be living hell for them.

Living hell? Sure sounds better than actual hell. And, yes, they are bus drivers.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Those captains were cowards and why they've been arrested and being persecuted. It's the Captain's responsibility that all of his passengers and crew get off the ship. If it means, going down with it, so be it. Has nothing to do with saving one's reputation or career. It'd doing your duty as Captain of the Vessel.

 

[Capt Caveman]

The captain of a cruise ship isn't someone trained to deal with life threatening situations and react accordingly. Expecting these guys to risk their lives, and holding them to that standard, is a bit unrealistic. These aren't firefighters or military members.



Living hell? Sure sounds better than actual hell. And, yes, they are bus drivers.

Yes, they are. Bus drivers? :biggrin:

How to Become a Cruise Ship Captain

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

stick around but you could lose your life. i think he made a mistake also but he survived and a bunch of other people didn't.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Its the Captains job to make sure the ship functions well, this doesn't mean he needs to sink with the ship but it does mean he needs to ensure the evacuation is running properly.

 

[NetWareHead]

The captain of a cruise ship isn't someone trained to deal with life threatening situations and react accordingly. Expecting these guys to risk their lives, and holding them to that standard, is a bit unrealistic. These aren't firefighters or military members.



Living hell? Sure sounds better than actual hell. And, yes, they are bus drivers.

Not trained to deal with life threatening situations? Who do you thinks musters all of the passengers towards the lifeboats? Deploys the lifeboats? Assures good working condition of emergency equipment? Knows what protocols needs to be followed to alert authorities of dangerous conditions and call for assistance. Who sometimes dies saving passengers/crew and goes down with the ship? Who is required to know every sq inch of the ship, every critical system and knowledge of the architectural blueprints of that ship's construction? And so on and so forth. The captain is responsible for all of this.

You dont just get to grow out a beard, wear a hat, smoke a pipe and turn the ship's helm. There are, you know, real responsibilities and real working knowledge that much be learned to be a captain. There is an enormous amount of responsibility riding on a captain's shoulders. You have no idea about what you are talking about.

 

[Phoenix86]

Well, the captains didn't die now did they?

 

[Markbnj]

There are so many angles on this question, no simple answer is going to suffice.

Yes, the captain was physically in danger. Every single person on or near that ship was in serious danger. A ship is a massive piece of equipment, and when one is in an unstable position like that danger is everywhere. I'm not going into all the specific possibilities, but it boils down to bad stuff that can happen on the ship as she founders, and bad stuff that can happen in the water when she does.

The first category includes all the massive gear that isn't meant to hang on an angle, and starts breaking its mounts and crashing through stuff, electrical shorts, fires, explosions from immersing hot equipment in cold seawater, the list is extensive. The second category includes getting tangled in debris and pulled under, ingesting oil or other chemicals, getting trapped by the ship as it rolls. It's very difficult even to swim in the vicinity of a sinking ship. You hear stories about people being "pulled under" when a ship sinks, but that is not what happens. What does happen is that the ship releases a huge amount of trapped air, which massively aerates the water above the ship as it sinks. You can't swim in aerated water. The density is too low to push against, so down you go. By the time the air disperses and you have something to push against you're too far down to survive.

So, bottom line, when a ship is sinking it's bad and everybody needs to get off and safely away as soon as possible. When that ship is in danger of rolling over it's much worse because you don't know when that is going to happen. When it does happen it can happen suddenly and quickly, and if you aren't off and away, good chance you're dead.

The point of all this is to establish as a baseline that the captain, as a human, was properly terrified of his life in that situation. Should he have gotten off her? In western maritime culture the whole "going down with the ship" thing is romantic BS. Captains sometimes did, out of shame or despair, but as a general rule the captain is only expected to discharge, to the best of his or her ability, the responsibility to the passengers, cargo, and vessel that comes with the position. Nobody expects a captain to stay aboard past the point where he or she can do something to further carry out those responsibilities. When the cause is lost and you've done all you can you get the hell off. You will be judged by everything you did up to the point where you left, and to some extent afterward.

Now I've heard that the Koreans don't share the same cultural view of a captain and the responsibilities of the job, but I don't have any direct experience with deck officers from that part of the world, so I can't say.

 

[smackababy]

Not trained to deal with life threatening situations? Who do you thinks musters all of the passengers towards the lifeboats? Deploys the lifeboats? Assures good working condition of emergency equipment? Knows what protocols needs to be followed to alert authorities of dangerous conditions and call for assistance. Who sometimes dies saving passengers/crew and goes down with the ship? Who is required to know every sq inch of the ship, every critical system and knowledge of the architectural blueprints of that ship's construction? And so on and so forth. The captain is responsible for all of this.

You dont just get to grow out a beard, wear a hat, smoke a pipe and turn the ship's helm. There are, you know, real responsibilities and real working knowledge that much be learned to be a captain. There is an enormous amount of responsibility riding on a captain's shoulders. You have no idea about what you are talking about.

You know who else has those responsibilities? Flight attendants on planes. They have responsibilities their job requires? Who would have guessed! If you really think captains have all this vast knowledge that a 12 year old could memorize makes them such important figures, go ahead. They are still in the same boat (pun intended) as pilots: they drive the equivalent of a bus, big whoop.

Continue to expect them to act heroic, I'll continue to witness them acting like bus drivers.

 

[CptObvious]

TIME: Yes, It’s Illegal for a Captain to Abandon Ship in South Korea http://time.com/71828/south-korea-ferry-sewol-captain-lee-junseok/ The penalties for violating the laws are 'only' about $5K fines or 5 years in prison though.

Also, apparently the survivors are saying they never heard orders from the crew to abandon ship. That coupled with the fact that much of the crew were the first to be rescued doesn't sound to me like they did everything they could.

 

[Capt Caveman]

You know who else has those responsibilities? Flight attendants on planes. They have responsibilities their job requires? Who would have guessed! If you really think captains have all this vast knowledge that a 12 year old could memorize makes them such important figures, go ahead. They are still in the same boat (pun intended) as pilots: they drive the equivalent of a bus, big whoop.

Continue to expect them to act heroic, I'll continue to witness them acting like bus drivers.

:biggrin: Thanks for trolling! Yes, needing a masters and 10+ years of experience is what a 12 year old and a bus driver have.