Does an AGP 2.0 board fit in an AGP 1.0 slot?

[billmc215]

I've done quite a bit of searching and I've never quite found an explicit answer to this question. I want to be sure about this before I buy a video card that doesn't work in my mobo.

My mobo (ASUS K7M) has an AGP 1.0 (1X/2X) slot that looks like this (please excuse the ascii art in a non-fixed width font):

___________ _ ______________________
|___________|X|______________________|

I see video cards that say "AGP 1.0 and 2.0 compliant" which have a pinout that looks something like this:


|___________| |______| |_____________| |_|_
|___________| |______| |_____________| |___|

Will this card fit in that slot??? It looks like it might, with the extra "L" shaped part hanging outside of the slot. If so, are all AGP 2.0 video cards also AGP 1.0 compliant, or do I need to explicitly check the specs for that? The FAQ makes the statement:

The AGP standards are fully backwards and forwards compatible: AGP 1.0 cards (1X and 2X capable) have no problems with AGP 2.0 motherboards (1X, 2X, 4X capable) and vice versa.

But I'm still a little wary of the "vice versa" part. Can anybody reassure me?

 

[AnAndAustin]

NO! Sorry but you may be able to stick an AGP2.0 gfx card in there, but it will almost certainly not function properly and WILL certainly be a HUGE risk to ALL of your components, esp mobo and gfx card. AGP1.0 can only accept 3.3v operation and DEFINITELY no more than 16MB of gfx RAM. I'm afraid you're stuck to a Voodoo gfx card if you can find one cheap 2nd hand, any other gfx card should work fine but ensure it has only 16MB RAM. AGP2.0 card should be backwards compatible, but don't expect any manu to care about AGP1.0 anymore, let alone test/cater for them.

If upgrading is not an option then I would strongly rec you get a PCI gfx card. A GF2MX 32MB PCI is only about 2% slower than the AGP version, expect to pay the price for shopping for a PCI gfx card, but this does overcome the limitation of your old AGP slot.

 

[billmc215]

Thanks for the advice. I've got a Voodoo3 that works serviceably well right now, but it's starting to show its age.

You say that AGP 1.0 definitely won't work with a >16MB card. If that is so, why am I seeing Geforce2 64MB cards out there that claim to be "AGP 1.0 and 2.0 compliant" ? Will this card severely underperform in an AGP 1.0 slot? Am I better off just going for a PCI video card? Also, will having a PCI video card hurt the performance of my other PCI devices (by increasing the bus traffic)?

Thanks,
Bill (not sure if I even have an available PCI slot )

 

[AnAndAustin]

If a card proclaims it is 'AGP1.0 compliant' then you should be able to give it a go and return it for a FULL refund of cost & P&P if what it claims proves to be false, at least under UK law anyway. Do bear in mind there could be a difference between 'AGP1.0 compatible/capable' and 'AGP1.0 compliant', they may be very selective with the precise wording they use.

In terms of speed there is VERY little speed diff between AGP1.0 2x and AGP2.0 4x, or indeed AGP3.0 8x. So the matter is compatability, stability and the danger of rendering your mobo, PSU and gfx card if not anything else completely useless. Speed should not be ffected very much between 2x and 4x modes.

A PCI card is almost 100% guaranteed to work but you will be limited to entry level cards like GF2MX and original Radeon, most likely 32MB too. It will make your PCI bus very busy but you shouldn't have to worry about that as an end user. Unfortunately there is no quick and easy answer, simply make do with your Voodoo3, buy a PCI gfx card or else hope that that 64MB GF2 AGP card's claim is true. It may do you well to just sell on your PC 2nd hand and buy a better 2nd hand PC, that wouldn't cost you much. I'm sorry I am unable to give you good news, in every case I know of AGP1.0 will not run an AGP gfx card with more than 16MB RAM, and most cards expect the 1.5v of AGP2.0 rather than the 3.3v of AGP1.0. It is worth trying the manu of your mobo as they may be able to tell you what gfx cards will work, it certainly won't hurt to try.

 

[aswedc]

From this web page at ATI.com

Quote:
RAGE 128 PRO, RADEON, and newer products are keyed ?Universal AGP? and may operate in AGP 1.0 and AGP 2.0 compliant motherboards. Please check with your motherboard manufacturer if you are uncertain about the AGP specification it meets.

If you notice in the chart, there are cards that are checked in AGP 1.0 but not in universal AGP. But all cards that are checked in AGP 2.0 are also checked in universal AGP. That seems to say that every card will operate in a AGP 1.0 spec motherboard.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Depending upon your current CPU and system RAM you may gain VERY little if anything from a better gfx card, what is your PC spec? If your CPU is below 500mhz or RAM below 128MB then you won't gain much at all going above a Voodoo3. Here's some benchmarks which may be of use to you.

TomsHW perf of many gens of gfx card (AthlonXP2000+)

AnAndTech showing how GF2s, Radeons and Voodoo4&5 compare (Athlon 1.1ghz)

RivaStation showing GF2, GF3, Radeon and KyroII (P4-1800, Ath1200, PIII-800)

TomsHW AGP standards (also agrees that AGP1.0 will not run 1.5v AGP2.0 gfx card)

TomsHW Perf between the AGP 1x, 2x & 4x (Using GF256 & KX133, AMD750 & i840-P4)

 

[billmc215]

Thanks, aswedc. I had just found that ATI FAQ and I was about to post it too. If you look at figure 2 and figure 3 near the bottom of that page, they are really good illustrations of the different slots and cards. It clears up a lot of confusion for me. I think that the "AGP 1.0 and 2.0 compliant" cards that I'm finding are what they would term "Universal AGP." These should work in my AGP 1.0 (3.3V) slot.

Thanks for all the links, AnAndAustin. The "TomsHW AGP standards" one says that a Universal AGP card will work in a 3.3V slot. Also, as far as my system goes, I'm running a 700MHz Athlon w/ 512MB of RAM. I don't expect that I'll be blown away by the improvement with a GeForce2 (then again, maybe I will, coming from a Voodoo3). My only aim is to extend the gaming life of this system for a little longer. Something with more V-RAM, 2X AGP, and features like hardware T&L should help, right? If I can turn up the smoke sprites on "Counter-Strike" and try out "America's Army" I'll be happy. Especially if I can get that for around $40 (which is what 64MB Geforce2 cards are going for on eBay). Maybe I'm fooling myself that this will help, though.

 

[TheSmJ]

What about an AGP 3.0 board (like the 9700) in an AGP 2.0 compliant board?

The reason I ask is because I plan on upgrading my video card soon, and being as the mobo I currently use cannot support DDR, or AGP 3.0 (its a kt133a chipset based board) but it can support the newer Athlon XP chips. I was wondering if I should get the $200-$300 9700 based board when its released (the one thats made to compete with the 4200). This way I could wait 6 months to a year before I upgrade the mainboard and RAM, to squeeze out more speed when I need it. Or, get an 4x00 board (hopefully a 4400 or 4600 when the prices drop from the next gen cards' release) and do the same, only upgrade the video and mainboard at the same time (as I will undoutably have to).


BTW, does anyone know if Doom 3 is going to use a 8.1 or a 9.0 DirectX enabled engine? This would be one of the deciding factors in my decision.

Thanks everyone!

 

[rApiDShoT]

I believe that the motherboard you have is an ASUS, which means you have a AGP Pro slot. If you get an ASUS Geforce then I think you can take advantage of this feature.

Here's an article about the AGP Pro slot, http://www17.tomshardware.com/graphic/00q3/000922/index.html

I really have no idea if it's a good feature or not, but I am just tell ya..

 

[TheSmJ]

What about an AGP 3.0 board (like the 9700) in an AGP 2.0 compliant board?

Ment to ask "What about an AGP 3.0 compliant video card (like the 9700) in an AGP 2.0 compliant mainboard?

 

[rApiDShoT]

Try to get a GTS/Pro/Ultra/Ti, they do a lot better than the MX, they got nice DDR ram

 

[TheSmJ]

Originally posted by: rApiDShoT
I believe that the motherboard you have is an ASUS, which means you have a AGP Pro slot. If you get an ASUS Geforce then I think you can take advantage of this feature.

Here's an article about the AGP Pro slot, http://www17.tomshardware.com/graphic/00q3/000922/index.html

I really have no idea if it's a good feature or not, but I am just tell ya..

Actually, its an Abit KT7a, and its not a pro AGP slot. Thanks anyways though.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Well AFAIK the 'Universal AGP' relates to an AGP2.0 slot which accepts the older 3.3v AGP cards as well as the newer 1.5v AGP cards. The other type of AGP2.0 slot ONLY accepts 1.5v AGP cards and will not work with 3.3v AGP cards, this is at least backed up by the TomsHW link. So I wasn't aware that a gfx card using more than 16MB would work in an AGP1.0 slot, even if the card worked happily in 3.3v mode despite being designed for 1.5v operation. Regarding the ATI link it does seem to be somewhat contradictory, the ticks and lack of ticks down the AGP1.0 Specification (ie the mobo AGP slot) does back up what I am saying though, perhaps it is a matter of the newer (Radeon -> Rad8500) cards being able to work in 3.3v mode but NOT in AGP1.0 AGP slot. I'm not trying to be pecimistic here, just sharing my knowledge, experiences and concerns on the matter which could save you some money and headaches, I hope the other guys are right and an AGP1.0 slot can take these cards, but I am still doubtful. I know SuperSkt7 mobos always used an AGP1.0 slot and as such would never work reliably with even a GF2MX 32MB.

However, you say you are using an Athlon 700mhz, surely all Athlon mobos came with AGP2.0 AGP slots?

 

[AnAndAustin]

The way I read the ATI link confirms what I already thought (although I admit 100% I could be wrong).

On the left you have the cards listed, next you have the 2 types of 'CONNECTOR TYPE' which relate to the gfx card itself, 3.3v only work in mobos with 3.3v AGP slots (or 'Universal AGP2.0' AGP slots on mobos as these can run the card in both 3.3v AND 1.5v modes). Next column shows the MOBO AGP SPECIFICATION, only the older cards work in AGP1.0 mobo slots, while the newer cards work in AGP2.0 mobo slots, hence the ticks. The last 2 columns show the card's abilities of the Voltage and Multiplier they can use.

QUOTE FROM ATI LINK, "RAGE 128 PRO, RADEON, and newer products are keyed ?Universal AGP? and may operate in AGP 1.0 and AGP 2.0 compliant motherboards."

This is the only thing that is initially contradictory from the way I interpret the info. However I believe this means that the newer cards aren't locked like the older ones, so they can be plugged into all mobo AGP slots (as the 1.5v ONLY AGP2.0 mobos would refuse to take them if they used the older type keying system).

Anybody else see this, or is it just the fact it's 4:00am over here and I'm totally knackered!

 

[billmc215]

OK, now I've got myself really freakin confused. I do have an "ASUS K7M" motherboard. I reread the manual and I came across this previously unnoticed statement about the AMD-751 Northbridge: "complies with AGP 2.0 specifications for 1X and 2X AGP modes ..." There's nothing about "AGP Pro." But that statement is confusing to me. AGP 2.0 specs for 1X and 2X??? I know it's a 3.3V slot. Doesn't AGP 2.0 specify a voltage of 1.5V? WTF? There's so much contradictory info out there, I'm gonna go crazy.

My best theory is this:
The really old video cards require 3.3V and so will work in either AGP 1.0 slots or Universal AGP slots. There are some lower-end or not-as-old video cards out there that require 1.5V and so will only work in an AGP 2.0 slot or Universal AGP slot. Finally, there are some video cards out there that are "universal" and can use a 3.3V OR 1.5V supply (all it would take is a simple friggin voltage divider, am I right). Thus they can be plugged into either AGP 1.0 slots, AGP 2.0 slots, or Universal AGP slots.

That's just my theory, though. To save myself from the loony bin, I think I'm just gonna take my chances based on that theory. I'm gonna get a card that's "1.0 and 2.0 compliant" and give it a whirl. If it doesn't work at all, worst case, I'm out maybe $50. I'll live. Thanks for all the help, though.

 

[AnAndAustin]

That would be my take on it, if you are buying then a GF2Ultra/TI/GTS/Pro are significantly faster than GF2MX, same for Radeon DDR over SDR, but Radeon7500 is the GF2TI/GTS equivilent. If you can get 64MB on the gfx card, 32MB is way to limiting if you can avoid it. Since your mobo is Athlon, it should be AGP2.0 compliant, I haven't heard of any mobo accepting over 550mhz CPUs which is AGP1.0, so you should be fine to get an AGP2.0 card, but one which states '1.0 and 2.0 compliant' gives you 2 chances to get lucky. If you get instability and problems after installing it could suggest that the card is incompatible, if you don't mind instability and a slight danger to your components (mostly mobo and gfx card) then you can use it regardless. Best of luck.

Just a note about 'Universal AGP' slots on mobos, there are now 2 types:

1. Universal AGP2.0 which can take the old 3.3v only gfx cards as well as new AGP2.0 1.5v cards, and of course any cards capable of running in both modes.

2. Universal AGP3.0 which can take the 'older' AGP2.0 cards using 1.5v BUT can also take the new AGP3.0 (8x) cards using 0.8v signals.

This won't affect your purchase, but it is good info for anybody else reading.

 

[Peter]

Folks, hold still for a minute and let the facts rest.

AGP 1.0 cards and mainboards may implement 1x and 2x modes, and are always 3.3V.
AGP 2.0 includes 1x and 2x modes at 3.3V, and 4x mode at 1.5V. Also, the power budget for the card was raised, and Pro variant introduced for even hungrier cards.

Note the "may". By either revision of the standard, cards may implement any subset. So yes, you can have an AGP 2.0 slot that only supports 1x and 2x modes at 3.3V, and no 4x, no 1.5V. Such a slot needs to be keyed 3.3V-only, as in the brilliant painting in the initial post here.

Intel's current 845 chipset can only do 4x at 1.5V, boards using it have their AGP slot keyed in a different position. Cards that are to fit have to have a notch in the same position as this key.

Then there are universal cards that have both notches, and universal slots that have no key.


So what do you have to watch if you want to stick a current card into an old 3.3V-only slot? You need a 3.3V or universal card (the latter being the more common type now), and if it's an AGP 1.0 mainboard, you need to watch the power budget, and better not use mid to high end Geforces. ATi and SiS chipset cards are a lot less hungry. Size of the on-card cooling solution is a good indication of power consumption. The bigger the heatsink and fan, the higher the power consumption. (Side note: For the cautious and those stuck with old mainboards, and for those who prefer their computers to be quiet, there are fanless cards available from PowerColor, which are detuned Radeon 7500 and 9000.)

regards, Peter

 

[AnAndAustin]

There are also many standard versions of GF2MX, GF4MX (usually 420 and 440) and also Rad9000/9000pro card which all come with no HSF installed, just a HS. It is worth checking out, but none of these cards actually need HSF, it is there primarily to amke the card more attractive, esp for o/c'ers. I'd still rec you'd be best served to either buy a 2nd hand 16MB card of Voodoo4 or 5 cariety, or else just sell your current PC and buy a slightly beefier 2nd hand PC, it shouldn't cost you very much at all and any PIII, Duron or Athlon above 700mhz are pretty much guaranteed to come with an AGP2.0 slot easily supporting (and benefiting from) GF4TI cards and beyond.

 

[Peter]

Hell no. Even the lowliest of the current Radeon cards (skip the 7000 and 7200 please) run circles around a 16 MB Voodoo in any halfway current game. Not to speak about TV-out, DVI and dual head capability. Prices start at $80, this gets you said fanless 7500LE - and even full blown 8500 has half the power consumption of GeForce 3, not to mention the non-MX GF4 series.

regards, Peter

 

[billmc215]

Originally posted by: Peter
Folks, hold still for a minute and let the facts rest.

AGP 1.0 cards and mainboards may implement 1x and 2x modes, and are always 3.3V.
AGP 2.0 includes 1x and 2x modes at 3.3V, and 4x mode at 1.5V. Also, the power budget for the card was raised, and Pro variant introduced for even hungrier cards.

Note the "may". By either revision of the standard, cards may implement any subset. So yes, you can have an AGP 2.0 slot that only supports 1x and 2x modes at 3.3V, and no 4x, no 1.5V. Such a slot needs to be keyed 3.3V-only, as in the brilliant painting in the initial post here.

<snip>

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Peter! I would surmise that my ASUS K7M mobo has an AGP 2.0 slot that only supports the 1X and 2X speeds at 3.3V. Thus, it is keyed as a 3.3V slot. So, the fact that it's AGP 2.0 compliant (even though it doesn't support 4X at 1.5V), should mean that it can fulfill the power budget for the hungrier AGP 2.0 cards, right? Assuming, of course, that the card supports 1X or 2X operation.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[AnAndAustin]

Originally posted by: Peter
Hell no. Even the lowliest of the current Radeon cards (skip the 7000 and 7200 please) run circles around a 16 MB Voodoo in any halfway current game. Not to speak about TV-out, DVI and dual head capability. Prices start at $80, this gets you said fanless 7500LE - and even full blown 8500 has half the power consumption of GeForce 3, not to mention the non-MX GF4 series.

Well I wasn't implying the Voodoo4 & 5 cards were any where near even GF2MX perf, let alone Rad7500 or GF2TI. By reading my previous posts you'd realise the advantages of the 16MB Voodoo4 & 5 cards is that they work very well with AGP1.0 mobos and you should be able to find them very cheap 2nd hand.

Regarding power consumption, I think you are a little unfair to the GF cards, sure they eat a lot of power (a given when feeding a fast GPU and 64MB+ RAM), but I don't think the Radeon equivilents use much, if any, less.