Does 'extreme' o'clocking serve a major purpose at this point?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,893
3,245
126
For me, 20-30fps is decent. I never really understood the desire people had to get ultra high fps.

lolz...

as i said, you never probably experienced what the ultra high end gaming machine brings to the table.
Do you know how awesome games like crysis become when there fully unlocked on the hardware end, and you got real life like dynamics going on?

You begin to forget your playing a shooter, and your taking a virtual hike up a mountain.

The dynamics really change when you got everything blasted up, and things aren't shuttering across the screen.

I even got my brother to give up games on the Xbox360 after he saw it on my PC.

Lastly, dont make me bring in the flight simulator guys on you.
They cant stop about how much they need ultra fast hardware to get there life like experience on there pc for that game.
 
Last edited:

COPOHawk

Senior member
Mar 3, 2008
282
1
81
I overclock for two reasons.

1. It saved me money - my oc'd Q6600 has been stable at 3.4 ghz for over two years...allowing me much higher performance for the money than upgrading to a Q9000 quad or even to the I7 - 920 or 950. Even for what I use it for today...it makes sense. I won't be upgrading until Socket 2011 about a year from now. Every so often, I bump all the OC settings back to stock...just to remind myself why I overclocked in the first place...the difference is noticable even with my Intel G2 80 GB SSD....

2. It makes me money - I am self-employed specializing in small business computer consulting. I save a lot of time on image backups, AV/AS scans, and general multi-tasking....compared to a slower/stock clocked system. Time is money for me...
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
2. Games For Windows Live. SecURom. "Please insert CD", etc. etc. I refuse to purchase games outside of Steam/Blizzard at this point, and GFWL still manages to mess up a lot of Steam games as well.
1. These are terrible, but by no means universal.
2. Please insert CD is a requirement of consoles, even if you "install" the game to the HDD on your console you must insert the disk. And GWL is rarely used in PC games but always used in console games.
3. Steam is ok, but by no mean the best. There are far better online download services, for example, impulse. And for older games there is GOG which is just sublime. But don't get gung ho about gog being older games, there is still impulse.
4. Steam has a huge, massive library and you yourself said its good.

3. I've seen deals/bundles where it comes out to about$150. My point is that they are really cheap now.
50$ off from a deal on the arcade edition is plausible... but the arcade edition, as I said before, is crap. You only get it to replace your RRODed xbox. The PS3 is actually cheaper than the xbox360, since their lowest priced bundle actually gives you a complete console.

4. Better, sure, but,

5. are they enough better to justify consuming several times as much resources on a PC? In almost all cases, no. Games like GT4 for example performed horribly on the PC, despite their mediocre graphics. The fact is that developers just aren't interested in the platform anymore. They don't optimize the games and they let MS put their Windows Live garbage all over it. There aren't many games out there that actually justify owning a 6970 (which probably explains why AMD seems to have not bothered much with the 6000 series as a whole).You can stress a card all you like by running at really high AA and resolution, but that isn't making the textures and models any better.
1. It is a lie that you spend several times as much on PC. If you have a desktop already (which most people do) you need only buy a video card and maybe a PSU in a brick and mortar store (for the free installation they provide assuming you can't do it yourself).
If you only have a laptop and no desktop then it is indeed more expensive to BUY a new computer, although you can build one yourself cheaper.
2. It is total bull that "PC is dying" and "developers are not interested". There are one or two developer that leave PC market every year, there are many more that join it. PC gaming has been growing non stop since its inception, and has been declared as dead or dying since 1980.

6. EPIC absolutely does matter. They used to push the graphics boundary on the PC, but they don't care anymore. Now they are working on the iPad, as is iD and so are the Crysis people. I'll be honest, I spend more time gaming on my iPad these days than I do on my PC.
EPIC is irrelevant, and crytek even more so. Crytek was a new company who made 1 "game" (more like a fraction of a game) to demo their CryEngine which they wanted to sell, they hoped to dethrone the unreal engine (which is used in hundreds of games). Their failure was being overly ambitious and badly managed, they created an engine that ran poorly on current hardware (DX9 was under optimized) while optimized for futuristic hardware nobody could afford (top of the line dual GPUs). Then they blamed piracy, vowed to make only console exclusives, went back on that claim by making a multi platform game...
The important thing is that they made unpopular games that didn't sell, not that they "pushed the limits". there are tons of relevant companies that make excellent PC games that sell greatly. Those companies are relevant, those companies might not push hardware as hard, but they look amazingly better then console games.

I think PC gaming will get better in about 2 years, when the next generation of consoles are released and developers actually start building games designed to run at 1080p and to use modern graphics card features.
The belief that all PC games are console ports is incorrect.
 

drizek

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2005
1,410
0
71
lolz...

as i said, you never probably experienced what the ultra high end gaming machine brings to the table.
Do you know how awesome games like crysis become when there fully unlocked on the hardware end, and you got real life like dynamics going on?

You begin to forget your playing a shooter, and your taking a virtual hike up a mountain.

The dynamics really change when you got everything blasted up, and things aren't shuttering across the screen.

I even got my brother to give up games on the Xbox360 after he saw it on my PC.

Lastly, dont make me bring in the flight simulator guys on you.
They cant stop about how much they need ultra fast hardware to get there life like experience on there pc for that game.

I've upgraded my PC to run flight sims before, but it is pointless now because MS killed Flight Simulator development.

As for Crysis, fine, thats great, but the gameplay sucks. I've tried playing it a couple of tiems and could never really get into it. Mass Effect 2 is a lot better, and it runs perfectly smooth.

If you give me gameplay and graphics, I'll be more than happy to upgrade. I upgraded for Half Life 2, I upgraded for Battlefield 2, but I wouldn't upgrade for Crysis. Give me Battlefield 3 with Crysis-level graphics and I'll get on board, but the games I that I actually enjoy playing run just fine on my 4830. Fallout, Mass Effect, Starcraft, Civilization, Team Fortress, all great.
 

cody_horner

Member
Oct 25, 2010
35
0
0
Saying overclocking is useless, is like saying buying a faster computer is useless.

What kind of stupid statement is that? I like to get the most out of my system, and on top of that I'm both an enthusiast and someone who relies on their computer and the speed of their computer for daily use.

Not to mention, when you purchase high-end components - they are specifically built with extra overhead for this purpose. Why not make use of what you buy? It takes a whole 30 minutes to stabilize your system if you know what you're doing - and trust me when I say: if you like to buy high-end equipment, and keep your systems for a few years it is definitely worth it to obtain that extra overhead for future use.

Not to mention the fact that when I go to use other peoples systems, it is then that I can tell just how much better and nicer it is to work on my own system. You tend not to notice things are so fast and smooth, until you go back to using something slower again. The difference is there, and it is worth it.

If you're a beginner and not very tech savvy, I'd leave it at stock and not bother. Especially if all you do on the computer is fart around on the web or play the occasional game.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Saying overclocking is useless, is like saying buying a faster computer is useless.

You use it as sarcasm, but that IS what they are saying exactly and they actually MEAN it...
This is also the whole point of the failed netbook gimmick... Speaking of, I tried a netbook, returned it, bought a real laptop (ultra mobile. 3.7lbs dual core intel i7 low power 13" @600$ vs the 2.7lbs netbook @300$).

When I returned it I was told by the customer support rep at costco that most people end up returning these... in fact they actually had a SIGN on the netbooks pointing out its low performance and saying what you can and can't use it for so you would be less likely to return it if you buy it.

Anyways, this is the same old "640K ought to be enough for anybody" argument. To be fair to bill gates, he now says he is quoted out of context and was referring specifically to the memory requirements of his latest OS, not saying that computers will never need more than that.
 
Last edited:

smakme7757

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2010
1,487
1
81
As for Crysis, fine, thats great, but the gameplay sucks. I've tried playing it a couple of tiems and could never really get into it.

I own both Crysis and Warhead and they are the first FPS i ever played until the end with the only other being Fear 2.

I know we all have different tasts, but when ever i hear 'Crysis sucked' i never really under stood why? Throwing people off mountains is just fantastic :biggrin:.
 

JimmiG

Platinum Member
Feb 24, 2005
2,024
112
106
People have always questioned the validity of overclocking and getting all the latest hardware, ever since the 640k RAM barrier in DOS.

I mean, back in the day, keeping that Celly 300A at its stock settings was probably fine for 99% of the users.. but then came the day when being able to run it at 500 MHz was a real benefit which allowed people to keep their old computers for another 1-2 years when paired with a brand new Voodoo2 for the latest games (with 12MB..WHO NEEDS 12MB of video memory??).
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
I own both Crysis and Warhead and they are the first FPS i ever played until the end with the only other being Fear 2.

I know we all have different tasts, but when ever i hear 'Crysis sucked' i never really under stood why? Throwing people off mountains is just fantastic :biggrin:.

1. It was at most half a game... 3 to 6 hours in you suddenly get end credits midway through a mission.
2. Its plot and levels were bland and generic.
3. The suits were awesome... but were under utilized.
4. Random mooks took way too many shots to kill, even on easy... while throwing a carboard box insta killed them then chocking them killed them very quickly... as a result you ran around tossing improvised weapons and choking people (rapidly switch to speed, close in, switch to strength, choke, enjoy the human shield while doing so) instead of using the useless guns.
5. The graphics were only amazing if you had a 2000$ computer, for anyone with normal hardware they looked worse then other games on the market... playing it today, on modern GPUs, it looks a lot better.
6. low min FPS on current gen CPUs resulted in low min FPS even on beefier GPUs or lower graphical settings (you can't lower physics settings), which resulted in guns being difficult to aim (not that you wanted to bother with guns, see point 4). Playing it today, on modern CPUs, it is a lot better.
 
Last edited:

drizek

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2005
1,410
0
71
I own both Crysis and Warhead and they are the first FPS i ever played until the end with the only other being Fear 2.

I know we all have different tasts, but when ever i hear 'Crysis sucked' i never really under stood why? Throwing people off mountains is just fantastic :biggrin:.

For the record, I don't like FEAR either.

You use it as sarcasm, but that IS what they are saying exactly and they actually MEAN it...

Ya, I mean it. The fact is that there isn't very much that the average person does with a computer that requires new hardware, let alone overclocking new hardware. That wasn't true back in 1996, it wasn't even true in 2004, but today the computers are just incredibly fast and the things we use them for haven't progressed in the same way. This is especially true for games, because the reality is that making a cross-platform game is much more profitable than targeting the PC only, and there is little point in wasting your time developing artwork that will only run on high end gaming PCs and not on the consoles where the majority of your sales will be. Pretty much the only games these days that are PC-exclusive are the games that you literally cannot play on a console, like Civilization (but again, that isn't stopping them from building Civilization for the iPad).

Moreover, I just bought a Macbook Air. Yes, it felt incredibly weird paying $1300 for a laptop with a CPU from 2008, but I love it. It does everything I want, it has no moving parts, it is totally silent and the battery lasts forever. Moreover, the CPU is so mature that I can run it at 1.8Ghz all the time at the idle voltage of 0.925V. I used to have a Core i5 with a Mobility Radeon 5830 and guess what, I don't actually encode video on my laptop, nor did I ever actually play Bioshock or Team Fortress on it(despite them being installed). I use it to browse the web, read, and write and for that the Apple keyboard/trackpad, combined with 7 hours of battery instead of 2 makes it a far superior system compared to the ultra modern(I bought the i5 laptop the same week that Intel and AMD launched Arrandale and MR5000, that was a year ago) but hot and loud "performance" laptop. Honestly, I just wish that my Air had hardware AES acceleration, that's the only tangible benefit I see to an Arrandale system.

If you were to ask me what the primary benefit of using my desktop over my macbook Air is, I wouldn't say "the fast CPU" or "the fast video card". I would say "the 23" IPS LCD and bookshelf speakers". The fact is that even for me the power of my desktop is unnecessary, and I'm an enthusiast and my desktop isn't even that powerful. I don't mind making tradeoffs on my desktop to get largely unnecessary increases in performance. I have a good case with good fans and it stays nearly silent all the time regardless. Once you start having to power all this stuff with a battery though, you will quickly realize that you don't need nearly as much performance as you think you need.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Ya, I mean it. The fact is that there isn't very much that the average person does with a computer that requires new hardware, let alone overclocking new hardware.

Windows has, with each iteration, become easier to use.
Drivers became more plug and play. Networks became self configuring culminating with Homegroup. New hardware no longer requires a restart or manual polling. Preinstalled driver libraries balloon in size exponentially. Ease of use and automation constantly improve and that takes up computational power, HDD space, and RAM.

Those nifty little automations and tasks can be easily disabled by the more experienced user, but why should they?

But that doesn't account for all of it, major increases in computation demands came from the software, not the OS itself.
Office programs get better and better at grammar checking, we are on the cusp of voice recognition being feasible (heavily CPU limited), people think their computer "froze up" whenever there is a slight delay and end up cutting power (causing OS file corruption or other issues).

Facial recognition software and voice recognition are here, but stand to benefit from faster hardware.

And games, games are very far from rendering holliwood quality cinematics in real time.

If you were to ask me what the primary benefit of using my desktop over my macbook Air is, I wouldn't say "the fast CPU" or "the fast video card". I would say "the 23" IPS LCD and bookshelf speakers". The fact is that even for me the power of my desktop is unnecessary, and I'm an enthusiast and my desktop isn't even that powerful. I don't mind making tradeoffs on my desktop to get largely unnecessary increases in performance. I have a good case with good fans and it stays nearly silent all the time regardless. Once you start having to power all this stuff with a battery though, you will quickly realize that you don't need nearly as much performance as you think you need.
I use an ultra portable 13" laptop that weighs 3.7 lbs... I certainly accept performance tradeoffs for better battery and lower weight, and for what I use it for that is acceptable... but there are many things I can do on my desktop that I simply CAN'T on my laptop... also, your Macbook air cost $1300... How much was the desktop?

And you expect me to believe that you play video games on your macbook air and that it is just as good as playing them a desktop?

As far as arrendale goes.. intel has a near monopoly... with AMD struggling intel has not been pushing anything noticeably faster. The need is there, but they are inching along in performance, while making headway in manufacturing cost reductions. (which somehow never get passed on to the consumer). Arrendale was about cutting production cost in half by eliminating the north-bridge (which also slightly decreased its size, weight, and power consumption)... And prices actually went up! GPUs, cell phone SIC, SSDs, displays, eReaders and other electronics where there is actual competition show tremendous growth rates. SSDs more than double in speed and size every year while going down in price by a 1/3rd or so... and its all useful. GPUs rapidly increase in performance, and its all used up to produce better visuals, etc.
The moment we see actual CPU performance increase it will be put to use, we already have uses for it, and there are more uses that people are not writing programs for because they realize they are not practical on current hardware.

Also, as I mentioned before... any pause long enough to be noticed (say, a few seconds) will send the user into panic and likely prompt them to damage their PC. Any of your non techy relatives MUST be equipped with the fastest PC you can manage to avoid that.
 
Last edited:

drizek

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2005
1,410
0
71
Don't misunderstand my argument. I am not saying that there is no use for faster computers. What I am saying is that we don't have applications that actually take advantage of faster computers right now, and, unfortunately, I don't see the same desire to develop them today that I did 5 years ago. The focus now is on consoles and mobile devices.

My desktop cost probably $100 for PSU/case, $90 for DVDRW/BluRay, $90 motherboard, $90 video card, $120 CPU, $50 RAM, $140 hard drives. So thats about $700, then $250 for the display, $50 for the trackball/keyboard, $130 for the speakers and another $130 for the sound card. Total is maybe $1250. I bought the parts over several years though and there are some other bits of hardware that have come and gone. As you can see, I spent a significant proportion of that budget on qualitative aspects of the system(nice display, input devices and sound) rather than the quantitative/performance parts, which depreciate quickly and get replaced often.

Yes, I do play games on my macbook Air, if by games you mean Braid. Other than that, no. Like I said, I used to have a top end gaming laptop and I found that I never actually gamed on it.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Don't misunderstand my argument. I am not saying that there is no use for faster computers. What I am saying is that we don't have applications that actually take advantage of faster computers right now, and, unfortunately, I don't see the same desire to develop them today that I did 5 years ago. The focus now is on consoles and mobile devices.
Video games, video editing, voice recognition, facial recognition, 4000K resolution video, anything science related, programming (compiling takes a while!), graphic design, any type of server activity and more.

We do have the applications, its just not applications you care about... And there are many more applications that we WANT to have but nobody will program them until we have enough power to run them (any business that creates applications that cannot run on current hardware is doomed to fail)... so there are many applications on the "todo" lists which are just waiting for enough power to be available.
And unlike the above applications, gaming is a universal activity that countless people use. That there are few games that can make use of hypothetical super CPUs not yet made is only due to prudent management of gaming companies (its a waste to program something that cannot be used)... it is not a reason NOT to make said CPUs, we will use them as soon as they become available.

And even existing applications targeted at "average joes" like excel spreadsheets or web browsers there is certainly a tangible benefit to speed which people desire.

Then there are non traditional uses... for example, self driving cars currently run on multiple quad core CPUs. (one model for example was using 4x core2quads extreme edition when they were top of the line) and they still would like to have more processing power.

Yes, I do play games on my macbook Air, if by games you mean Braid. Other than that, no. Like I said, I used to have a top end gaming laptop and I found that I never actually gamed on it.
You not playing anything more graphically intensive than braid does not mean that there is "no use" for it. Even relatively light, yet extremely popular games like WoW give a much better experience with more than your macbook air can deliver... Braid is in the "super lightweight" class when it comes to processing demands, it in effect runs on anything. But the existence of such games does not nullify the benefits of faster platforms.

I am not saying you personally need to upgrade. I am saying you are not indicative of the population at large and you are ignoring all the wonderful uses that matter to a lot of people who are not you. You didn't say "I personally have no use for it", you said "there is no use for it", implying nobody does.
 
Last edited:

drizek

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2005
1,410
0
71
I remember now that I would like to have a faster system to make RAW photo editing run smoother. I have basically given up on lossy video encoding, why bother anymore? I bought a 2TB hard drive for $60. That can fit about 100 hours of lossless 1080p video. It's just not worth the time and hassle and loss of quality to convert to x264, but thats just me. Obviously, for mobile devices, a lossy transcode is desirable to keep file sizes low, but hopefully encoding will be fully GPU accelerated before too long.

I'll grant you programming, though I don't do any of that.

As for graphic design, I believe this is less intensive than editing photos. It is something that I used to do on ~300MHz Pentium IIs with 64MB of RAM(same goes for 3D rendering) so I have little sympathy for those who say that a 3.1GHZ quad core just isn't enough . I remember when we got a 2.4GHz pentium 4, and then the dual 1.6GHz Opterons. Those were some nice upgrades. I think that for me, just playing with the software, I never got advanced enough to even fully utilize the Pentium 4, let alone a modern CPU. That's not to say that there aren't those who don't, but what proportion of the general population actually works for Pixar?

You say that my needs are lower than those of the population at large, and that's where I disagree with you. I believe I stress my computers significantly more than the average person, and I think the strength of my argument lies in the fact that even I don't really feel much of an urge to get something faster other than just for the fun of it.
 

digitaldurandal

Golden Member
Dec 3, 2009
1,828
0
76
For me, 20-30fps is decent. I never really understood the desire people had to get ultra high fps.

20 - 30 fps is like a slide show in a shooter game. You must be a terrible FPS player.

If you want high minimum frame rates at high resolutions including in recent games you will want to overclock your system to the max. I am running surround and the difference between my system vs stock is amazing. Nothing like 5760x1200 to point out a weak spot in your system.
 

drizek

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2005
1,410
0
71
I don't know. The days of running FRAPS while I game are over. I don't know what fps I get now. If it doesn't stutter, it's fine.

Of course, now I'm going to go and install FRAPS and play some games...
 

drizek

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2005
1,410
0
71
20 - 30 fps is like a slide show in a shooter game. You must be a terrible FPS player.

If you want high minimum frame rates at high resolutions including in recent games you will want to overclock your system to the max. I am running surround and the difference between my system vs stock is amazing. Nothing like 5760x1200 to point out a weak spot in your system.

OK, so I get a solid 60fps in TF2. I think I was getting around 30 in Mass Effect though, and that was fine. A lot of console ports have fighting systems designed to be less twitchy than PC FPS games, so they actually work well at low FPS.
 

halley

Junior Member
Mar 17, 2000
23
0
0
F@H has good reason to say that, if your system is not stable then the WU's it turns will be computed incorrectly and are unusable by the F@H group.

That is why you will find people here who say you should test your rig's OC with F@H even if you don't use the app for any other purpose.

But in general it is good advice to tell people to not run with scissors if they are the sort of people who need to be told such.

Years ago I got caught in the hype and overclocked whenever I built a new rig. In the process I blew up 2 motherboards. Eventually I told myself, "Stop it!".

My last overclocking happened when I bought an AMD dual core Callisto CPU and unlocked it to run its 4 cores. After some overclocking + testing to be sure its 4-core operations are stable, I backed down to default values.
 

digitaldurandal

Golden Member
Dec 3, 2009
1,828
0
76
OK, so I get a solid 60fps in TF2. I think I was getting around 30 in Mass Effect though, and that was fine. A lot of console ports have fighting systems designed to be less twitchy than PC FPS games, so they actually work well at low FPS.

60 fps cap vs 20 - 30 is a big difference.

You are correct that some games do not need to hit 60+ to be playable, ME might be a decent example of a shooter that doesn't require it. RTS don't require 60 to be smooth either.

But the same fps in tf2 would be terrible.

Also you know for source games you can just put /cl_drawfps 2 in the console and it will tell you your fps. No need for fraps.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |